Romans 4 vs James 2: Newborn babes vs converted Christians

[Mr GLee]

Once again words of tradition, not Scripture.

Scripture as it is written is God's tradition.

 

[JIM]

Scripture as it is written is God's tradition.

That is not a good understanding of "tradition". Tradition is 100% man. It may be based upon what God given us verbally though prophets or in writing, again from prophets. But tradition is man-derived and may be either right or wrong, correct or incorrect.

 

[Mr GLee]

That is not a good understanding of "tradition". Tradition is 100% man. It may be based upon what God given us verbally though prophets or in writing, again from prophets. But tradition is man-derived and may be either right or wrong, correct or incorrect.

Satan would make the two all one in the same to remove the eternal spiritual, unseen understanding .

Mathew 16 Good example. of the key that the gates of hell could never prevail against .Satan no form using Peter did unlock

The the father (anti-christ) of lies the one spirit worked in a legion of anti-christs' false prophet false prophecy. As a oral tradition of dying mankind .

Satan uses Peter the denier as a false prophet false apostle to destroy the written tradition of Christ . Rebuked the Lord forbidding jesus the Son of man from fulfilling prophecy

Peter was forgiven of his blasphemy against the Son of man Jesus (33year window) . That opportunity left when Jesus departed not to return.

No forgiveness against the unseen Holy Father the source or power of eternal faith .

 

[JIM]

Satan would make the two all one in the same to remove the eternal spiritual, unseen understanding .

Mathew 16 Good example. of the key that the gates of hell could never prevail against .Satan no form using Peter did unlock

The the father (anti-christ) of lies the one spirit worked in a legion of anti-christs' false prophet false prophecy. As a oral tradition of dying mankind .

Satan uses Peter the denier as a false prophet false apostle to destroy the written tradition of Christ . Rebuked the Lord forbidding jesus the Son of man from fulfilling prophecy

Peter was forgiven of his blasphemy against the Son of man Jesus (33year window) . That opportunity left when Jesus departed not to return.

No forgiveness against the unseen Holy Father the source or power of eternal faith .

Once again, I have no idea what is the point that you are trying to make.

 

[Ghada]

Conversely, a whole series of scriptures set aside from their context cannot make one passage not true.

True. It's called isolating some Scripture from all other Scriptures. The teaching is exclusive to some Scriptures, not allowing any other Scripture to challenge it.

Ex: People teach from Rom 4 that Christians are always justified by their faith alone, set apart from their deeds. They do not allow for when we are justified by our works in James 2.

Some teach we are always justified by our works from James 2, and do not allow for when first become justified by faith without works.

The truth is that Rom 4 speaks of newborn babes without works, and James 2 speaks of believers with works. And so neither needs to be excluded to teach the other.

Not because Christ is speaking of different justifications, but rather because He is speaking of different times of the believer justified by His faith: Newborn babes recieve His faith and are justified without works, while sons having faith with works are justified by works.

Children can no more have justification by faith without works, because with works we are no longer newborn babes. We become judged by our works, the same as all children of men on earth:

1 Peter{1:15} But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; {1:16} Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. {1:17} And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning [here] in fear:

You are just determining which scripture to not believe, rather than rightly dividing (handling) the word of God.

You are just determining I am not believing Scriptures that you teach from, rather than not believing what you teach about ithe Scripture

Just because you believe and teach something about Scripture, doesn't make it Scripture.

Act 17:11These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Not believing the teacher of something about Scripture, does not make it unbelief in God and His words.

Neither of us believe what the other is teaching about Scripture, and so one of us is not teaching Scripture rightly, and the other is wrongly teaching their beliefs as though it were Scripture. No problem.

We don't have to believe the teaching of others, but only the Scriptures themselves.

 

[Ghada]

So Christ only died for sins up to the point of receiving Him and not ALL our sins?

Of course, we are forgiven of ALL our past sins.

Rom 3:25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

If you mean by ALL, that we are already forgiven of present and future sins, then of course not.

No one is forgiven while sinning, because we are dead to God. And we must repent with godly sorrow for forgiveness of the sin and live.

2 Cor 7:10For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of:

1 John 1:9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

And no man can be forgiven of any future sin, because tomorrow may not come.

If you are preaching the tradition of being already forgiven of ALL past, present, and future sins, then by Scripture you are only right about the past, and wrong about the present and future which has no Scripture.

And so, are you saying you are already forgiven by Christ of ALL past, present, and future sins that you may commit? Are you no more condemned for any sins you may be presently doing, or shall be doing in the future? And if you are doing evil, are you alive in Christ, and not dead to God? So long as you are a believer having faith in Christ?

In the famous quote of Sarah Palin, "You can put lipstick on a pig but he's still a pig".

True. And Jesus also says not to cast pearls before swine. Whether with lipstick or not, or any nose jewels.

 

[Arial]

Once again words of tradition, not Scripture.

Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

The Scripture is not a statement that nothing can separate us from God, but rather is a question about who can separate us from the love of God.

Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The statement is not that nothing can separate us from God, but rather that no other creature can separate us from loving God. Which is true for any other creature than ourselves:

I can't tell if you really believe that or if you are just grasping at straws. What is your definition of "nothing"?

Isa 63:9 In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old. But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.

Isa 59:2But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Something certainly does separate any angel and man from God: Our own lust against God. No other angel nor man can separate another from the love and life of God, but only we ourselves can separate ourselves from His Spirit, which of course is from our own enmity against Him, and making Him an enemy against us by our own sins and trespasses.

Well, I did not say nothing can separate us from God. We are born separated from him. The passages in Romans are about not being separated from Christ's love. It is in fact an OSAS statement. When one is sealed in Christ by the Holy Spirit, and through faith, nothing can break that seal.

No man can blame any other man nor creature, for our own wilful sinning against God. And no man can pay the price of sin for other souls, who can only separate ourselves from the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.

Jas 1:14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

No other creature can lust and sin for us, nor die to God for us. Certainly not the Son of God who knew no sin at all.

Not only do you say that after having completely adulterated scriptures in order to validate the position, you completely went off your own topic with an of stawmen. The subject was from Rom 8. There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus and nothing can separate them from Christ's love.

 

[Arial]

He gave Himself a ransom for us, not pay for our sins. Only the soul that sins, dies by sinning.

A ransom by definition is offering something in the place of another to satisfy the demands that are placed by someone, on someone. So, in the case of Christ, what was the demand, who made the demand, who violated the demand and could not meet the demand, what did Jesus give his life to meet, and to whom?

 

[Ghada]

I don't understand what it is that you are trying to say. What or who are you calling newborn babes in Jesus Christ?

1Pe 2:2As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:

There are newborn babes in Christ Jesus.

Jhn 1:12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name. Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Newborn babes in Christ Jesus are when the ungodly repent, and are become new sons of God by birth, and adoption.

Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Even as newborn babes cry out for the first time from the womb, so do newborn babes in Christ Jesus first cry for the Father by recieving the Spirit.

Rom 9:11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

All of Romans 4 pertains to becoming newly elect sons by faith without works. All of James 2 pertains to being elect sons having faith with works.

Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
2Co 5:17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ,

Being without works in Romans 4, is the truth of becoming a wholly newborn babe of God, without any works remembered. It is not teaching justification by faith can never be with works.

James{2:21} Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?...Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Likewise, having faith by Jesus Christ in James 2, is the truth of being sons with works, and no more newborn as in the beginning of our faith toward God.

Romans 4 confirms the gospel promise of becoming whole new creatures of God, as newborn babes from the womb. James 2 warns sons let their works be of God, because we also are judged by our works.

There are believers that do not believe in becoming all new creatures with all things being of God, and nothing of the devil. They reject the gospel promise of Jesus Christ's power to make all things new and of God, for any man and woman that repents in this life.

There are believers that do not believe in being judged by our works without respect of persons. They reject the warning of the righteous Judge Jesus Christ, that we too will be judged by our works, even as all sons of men on earth doing good or evil deeds.

1 Peter{1:15} But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; {1:16} Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. {1:17} And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning [here] in fear:

 

[Arial]

Ex: People teach from Rom 4 that Christians are always justified by their faith alone, set apart from their deeds. They do not allow for when we are justified by our works in James 2.

What they do is allow for everything James said in his letter to be taken into account. And they allow that it cannot be contradicting any other scripture. You have made James contradict Paul. Paul clearly states in different places that justification is through faith apart from works. It was said also of Abraham. His faith, (not his works for his works were often in opposition to God) was counted to him as righteousness. Righteousness is always accompanied by righteous deeds. It cannot be otherwise. The faith that justifies is always accompanied by works that are in harmony with righteousness. It cannot be otherwise or it would not be faith.

So when James says that faith without works is dead, look at what he said before in the entire book (in fact in the entire letter) and you will see what he is talking about and why. He is giving the proper conduct of those who belong to God, who already have been justified by faith. And he is saying the faith is useless is it does not have the fruit of righteousness. He says show your faith BY your works.

Some teach we are always justified by our works from James 2, and do not allow for when first become justified by faith without works.

The truth is that Rom 4 speaks of newborn babes without works, and James 2 speaks of believers with works. And so neither needs to be excluded to teach the other.

They are talking about two different things or a distinction but not a difference, within faith and justification.

Romans 4 is talking about justification and how we are justified---through faith, and not by works otherwise it would no longer be grace.

James is talking about faith and what faith produces in our lives as children of God. He is not talking about how we are justified.

There is nothing in all of scripture that indicates two justifications. One for the new Christian before he has time to do any works, and another for the Christian when ---what?--he is one day old, two days old, 3 years, thirty years. Nothing that suggests that we are justified at the beginning and then we have to do works to be justified. You have taken all the power out of the cross and Christ's victory there.

Not because Christ is speaking of different justifications, but rather because He is speaking of different times of the believer justified by His faith: Newborn babes recieve His faith and are justified without works, while sons having faith with works are justified by works.

How many times can a person be justified before God and by God? If it is more than once, Jesus failed and justification is never really justification. Not the first time or any time after that. ANd if one is justified through faith as a "newborn" as you call it (which is very misleading unless you actually mean all babies are born justified, which is an obnoxious heresy) then they are justified. It would be an unjust judge who declared a person justified and then said but from now on you have to justify yourself by works of the law.

 

[Arial]

Newborn babes in Christ Jesus are when the ungodly repent, and are become new sons of God by birth, and adoption.

By birth and adoption is a contradiction. But newborn in Christ would obviously be the new birth of John 3, which is a work of the Holy Spirit within a person. However, Peter in that passage is not calling them newborn babes. He is telling them to be thirsty for the word of truth, and grow in understanding to arrive at the meat of the word, like newborn natural babies are thirsty for milk and grow until they eat solid food. Read the passage again and acknowledge that that is so. And that it is time for you too to grow in knowledge and understanding before you teach things of which you know nothing, and adulterate scripture in the way that you do.

 

[Ghada]

God justifies the ungodly, through/by the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ~without works, including man's faith, repentance, and his baptism in water, and his continuous in the faith, though God's children do overall considered, since no one can defined what it means to continue, and to what the degree one must to so. God's children range from Abraham to Lot, as far as their faith and good conscience toward God, and to the degree they act upon their conscience.

Romans 4:25~“Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.”

Justification is an act of God's will/mind apart from us doing any works. It is an sovereign act whereby he imputes righteousness to us, based upon his grace alone through the redemption that is in Jesus Christ, who secured this justification for us by his faith and obedience.

Romans 4:4~“Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.”​

As I said, our faith is not the reason, or the medium that God's righteousness is imputed to us~but, our faith is evidence that we are justified by Jesus Christ. Consider:

But to him that worketh not.​

The Bible plan, revealed from heaven, which rejects works. The Bible plan sees human cooperation and efforts the result of grace, not conditions for it! Salvation is of the LORD! We do not compromise that glorious declaration in any way at all! Faith is definitely a work – a work that God expects and requires (John 6:28-29), but it is not a legal, Jewish work of the Law, when it rests on the gracious and finished gift of God. Faith is definitely commandment keeping (I John 3:23), but it is the acceptable evidence of justification when it is viewed as evidence of those justified by God’s grace in Christ Jesus.

But believeth.

The Arminian shouts, “See, faith is not a work. Can you read Paul’s words? Leave us alone!” The Calvinist shouts, “See, faith is the instrument! Can you read Paul? Leave us alone!

• Paul had never met an Arminian or Calvinist, so he was not defending either view of faith.
• He had met plenty of Jewish legalists, and he condemned their heresy on the grounds of faith.
• Justifying faith here is faith that believes God justifies the ungodly by grace alone. Period!
• Do not understate this faith. It is a tremendous evidence of powerful grace in a dead sinner.

On him that justifieth the ungodly.

The only faith that works in this context is faith in God as Justifier of the ungodly, of wicked enemies, not in God as Justifier of the believer, of the faithful, of the obedient, etc. An Arminian’s faith generally rests on God justifying believers on the basis and/or merit of their faith produced by their free will – thus faith becomes a meritorious, conditional work. If an Arminian denies this, it is due to their own confusion about their contradictory doctrine.

God justifies men by free grace through Jesus Christ’s redemptive work (3:23-26; 8:28-33; etc.). They were chosen in Christ, died for by Christ, and had Christ’s work applied by the Spirit when they were dead sinners following the devil (Eph 2:1-7; Titus 3:3-7; etc.).

There is a means of justification ~ the means of the death of the testator (Hebrews 9:12-15).

His faith is counted for righteousness.

The identical language used of Abraham (Gen 15:6) and Phinehas (Ps 106:31) is used here for those who show their righteousness by faith in God and His Son Jesus Christ (4:23-25). Faith is the first evidence of righteousness granted by God for numerous reasons. Faith is the consequence of bestowed righteousness through Jesus Christ (II Peter 1:1). Faith in God from men without understanding by nature is evidence indeed (3:11). Faith in God from men that never sought God by nature is evidence indeed (3:11). Faith in God from men that had no fear of God before their eyes is evidence (3:18).

Thanks for the response. And, I'll gladly go thru this point by point out of respect for you taking time to teach it. However, at a glance I don't see any direct answer to the question:

"Does God justify ungodly men in their ungodly deeds? Or, does Jesus Christ justify the ungodly that repent of their ungodly deeds?"

The questions are yes/no, which requires a stated yes/no, or even yes and no, in the answer. It can be contained in or followed up by any explanations to show why. But without a direct answer, your teaching can be construed as a yes to the first question, and no to the second.

To make it simpler, let's just stick with the first question, and I'll try to make it clearer.

Does God justify the ungodly by faith, including when the believer is doing an ungodly act against God?

Do you believe that so long as we have faith in Christ, then we are justified with Him, even if and when we are acting ungodly toward God?

I say no. And I can give an explanation from Scripture why not.

 

[prism]

If you are preaching the tradition of being already forgiven of ALL past, present, and future sins, then by Scripture you are only right about the past, and wrong about the present and future which has no Scripture.

Weren't all our sins future sins when Christ died on the cross?

 

[Mr GLee]

Ex: People teach from Rom 4 that Christians are always justified by their faith alone, set apart from their deeds. They do not allow for when we are justified by our works in James 2.

Some teach we are always justified by our works from James 2, and do not allow for when first become justified by faith without works.

The truth is that Rom 4 speaks of newborn babes without works, and James 2 speaks of believers with works. And so neither needs to be excluded to teach the other.

Not because Christ is speaking of different justifications, but rather because He is speaking of different times of the believer justified by His faith: Newborn babes receive His faith and are justified without works, while sons having faith with works are justified by works.

Children can no more have justification by faith without works, because with works we are no longer newborn babes. We become judged by our works, the same as all children of men on earth:

Faith power of Christ working in us. Not of us we have none not little, nothing. He freely gives us little calling us of little faith. not faulting for not having enough. Just a fact. He can increase it

That is where many error thinkings Christ's faith of God alone ..Faith that comes from hearing God is never alone

It would destroy the law of faith. "Let there be" and the work seen was "God alone good "..

Not our faith as power but his coming from the storeroom of faith as it is written . We have none, being dead in trespass and sin

Faith of Christ is a work of Christ

 

[JIM]

1Pe 2:2As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:

There are newborn babes in Christ Jesus.

Jhn 1:12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name. Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Newborn babes in Christ Jesus are when the ungodly repent, and are become new sons of God by birth, and adoption.

Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Even as newborn babes cry out for the first time from the womb, so do newborn babes in Christ Jesus first cry for the Father by recieving the Spirit.

Rom 9:11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

All of Romans 4 pertains to becoming newly elect sons by faith without works. All of James 2 pertains to being elect sons having faith with works.

Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
2Co 5:17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ,

Being without works in Romans 4, is the truth of becoming a wholly newborn babe of God, without any works remembered. It is not teaching justification by faith can never be with works.

James{2:21} Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?...Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Likewise, having faith by Jesus Christ in James 2, is the truth of being sons with works, and no more newborn as in the beginning of our faith toward God.

Romans 4 confirms the gospel promise of becoming whole new creatures of God, as newborn babes from the womb. James 2 warns sons let their works be of God, because we also are judged by our works.

There are believers that do not believe in becoming all new creatures with all things being of God, and nothing of the devil. They reject the gospel promise of Jesus Christ's power to make all things new and of God, for any man and woman that repents in this life.

There are believers that do not believe in being judged by our works without respect of persons. They reject the warning of the righteous Judge Jesus Christ, that we too will be judged by our works, even as all sons of men on earth doing good or evil deeds.

1 Peter{1:15} But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; {1:16} Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. {1:17} And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning [here] in fear:

That is, adults who are newly justified, regenerated and sanctified; not the newly physical born or the very young?

 

[Mr GLee]

That is, adults who are newly justified, regenerated and sanctified; not the newly physical born or the very young?

I would offer,

New incorruptible bodies all die not receiving the one bride of Christ. neither male nor female Jew nor gentile have the new spirit and await the new bodies. No age requirement. no aging leading towards death in the new order

Eternally justified born again babies given the faithful desire of the sincere milk of the word, that believers may grow by its power of grace. . as it is written teaches babies that have no knowledge were to get food to grow. The kind of food, meat or daily bread of the word, the apostles knew not of. . .they still on milk the teacher of his great mercy mixed with grace the power of love. Learned a great lesson on milk that day . A glass with every meal

Never outgrow that daily need

John 6: 33 Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat? Jesus saith unto them, My meat (desire) is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work. (Emanual)

You could say. Got Milk? It can produce strong bones of faithful.( power)

When challenged the apostles prayed. . increase the power of Christ's labor of love that worked in them , They had no faithful power as strengthening food of their own.

Luke 17:4-6King James Version4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him. And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith.(power)

 

[Ghada]

You have made James contradict Paul. Paul clearly states in different places that justification is through faith apart from works.

Once again this is only traditional words, not Scripture.

Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Scripture speaks of justification without works, but never of any justification with God set apart from works.

Being without works is not being set apart from works. Being without works is having no works to judge. Being set apart from works, is having works separated from our judgment.

1 Peter{1:15} But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; {1:16} Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. {1:17} And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning [here] in fear:

The contradiction set up between Paul and James, is that Paul teaches justification is only by faith without works, and never by faith with works.

And of course no Scripture says anyone is justified with God apart from our works.

It was said also of Abraham. His faith, (not his works for his works were often in opposition to God) was counted to him as righteousness.

So, a man can be justified by faith, while his works are not justified by God, but in fact oppose Him, for his works are in opposition to God?
Was Abraham believing and trusting in the Lord, when going south to Egypt and fearing Abimelech? No, he was acting in opposition to God's faith and trust. How can a man be imputed righteousness for his faith, when acting by unbelief toward God?

Here we have the nonscripture tradition of justification set apart from the works we do, applied to Abraham's imputed righteousness by his faith toward the Almighty God.

1. We see here a teaching of being imputing righteousness by faith, not without works, but with works, that are also in opposition to God.

How can anyone be justified by faith without works, while having works? Is being without works only symbolic, and not truly without doing any works? The Scripture declares that being without works, is not doing any works at all.

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Therefore, by this teaching Abraham was not imputed righteous by faith without works, but with works, which also were works opposing God and His faith.

The tradition of setting apart works from justification by faith alone, is not as traditionally said to avoid boasting of works, but we see is also to justify the person, while doing works of bad faith toward God.

2. The Scriptural record is also changed by applying a bad tradition to Abraham, of being imputed righteousness while doing works opposing God.

When was Abraham's faith counted righteous by God? When Abraham left Ur? Arrived at the land of Canaan? Decieving Pharoah in Egypt, and Abimelech in Gerar? No. Abraham was only counted righteous for his faith afterward, when believing God's promise for a son by Sarah.

Gen 15:4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir….And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Therefore, the record of Scripture shows that the faith of Abraham was not counted for righteousness in Egypt and Gerar, but was unbelief toward God.

The whole blessed gospel of justification by faith toward God alone, becomes disannulled, by teaching Abraham was imputed righteousness while opposing God in works of bad faith.

 

[Arial]

Once again this is only traditional words, not Scripture.

When you can come up with something that is actually real, I will entertain it.

 

[Ghada]

The faith that justifies is always accompanied by works that are in harmony with righteousness. It cannot be otherwise or it would not be faith.

That faith would not be the righteous faith toward God, that justifies the man.

As in the matter of Abraham's opposition to the faith and trust of God, when going south to Egypt. our own faith alone is not coutned righteous by God.

He is giving the proper conduct of those who belong to God, who already have been justified by faith.

More traditional words not from Scripture.

1Co 6:11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

The Scripture says we are sanctified. No Scripture ever says we already have been justified. There is no justification with God, apart from any works we are doing.

And he is saying the faith is useless is it does not have the fruit of righteousness. He says show your faith BY your works.

This is true by James 2.

The problem for faith alone justification is when our faith is judged by works to be 'salvific', then justification by our faith is not set apart from our works.

The true preacher of faith only justification, declares that their works never have anything to do with their faith justifying them with Christ. Their faith needs no proof of works to be judged 'salvific'.

Romans 4 is talking about justification and how we are justified---through faith, and not by works otherwise it would no longer be grace.

Romans 4 is how to become newborn babes justified without works. James 2 is how we are sons justified with works.

James is talking about faith and what faith produces in our lives as children of God. He is not talking about how we are justified.

Yes, he is speaking of how we are washed, sanctified, and justified with righteous works:

James{2:21} Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?...Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Romans 4 is speaking of how we become washed, sanctified, and justified by faith without works.

Act 15:1And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

Romans 4 declares we need do no work become saved, sanctified, and justified by faith in Jesus Christ toward God. Jas 2 declares that when we do works, they must be good and righteous as beffitting sons justified with God.

Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

There is nothing in all of scripture that indicates two justifications.

True, and not true. God's justification for newborn babes is by faith without works. His same justification is for the faith of sons with works of His righteousness.

However, the Bible does speak of another justification by sinful man alone.

Luk 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

Man can applaud being sinners saved by grace, but the Lord only justifies and glorifies saints saved from sinning by grace.

One for the new Christian before he has time to do any works, and another for the Christian when

Not another, but the same justification by faith from Jesus Christ begun without works, and also with works.

Phl 1:6Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Nothing that suggests that we are justified at the beginning and then we have to do works to be justified.

No man has to do good, unless we seek justification with God and resurrection unto life.

Gal 2:17But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

1 Peter{1:15} But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; {1:16} Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. {1:17} And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning [here] in fear:

Col 3:23And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men; Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.

No man doing righteousness is justified with God. Only them doing the righteousness of God unto the end shall inherit the reward of resurrection unto life.

Transgression is death to God, and so salvation and justification must be from transgressing against God, that we may do the good creates us for in His own image.

 

[Ghada]

You have taken all the power out of the cross and Christ's victory there.

The power of the cross and Jesus' death, is to make all men that sin guilty of His death, so that any sin of man may become exceeding sinfull unto godly sorrow and repentance.

The victory of His resurrection is to have mercy and save them, that repent of slaying and crucifying the Lamb to themselves.

Scripture never speaks of anyone being saved nor justified by Jesus' death alone, nor by faith alone in His death, but only by faith in His resurrection for repentance and mercy.

Rom 10:9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

1 Peter{1:3} Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Rom 4:25Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

How many times can a person be justified before God and by God?

How many times can a man sin and have an advocate with the Father? How man times can a man be delivered from sin, and turn back to old sion, and yet be drawn by the Spirit to godly repentance and salvation?

Rom 1:21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

Rom 1:28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

If it is more than once, Jesus failed and justification is never really justification.

Jesus does not fail to save us from all our sins and trespasses.

It's the double hearted that fail to continue in His faith by doing the old sins of unrighteousness, that we are washed, sanctified, and justified from.

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

ANd if one is justified through faith as a "newborn" as you call it

1Pe 2:2As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
I can only quote Scripture, not make anyone believe it.

(which is very misleading unless you actually mean all babies are born justified, which is an obnoxious heresy)

Neither can I make anyone apply Scripture rightly.

Newborn babes created in the image of God, are pure of heart from the womb. They are not justified nor unjustified, having done neither good nor evil to be judged by.

Rom 9:11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)
Being created and born spiritually pure in the image of God is only heresy to those who teach a Christ, that now creates sinners in the image of the devil, and so are born his children from the womb.

That's not Jesus Christ the righteous and good Creator and Maker of all men coming into the world:

Jhn 1:2The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Jhn 1:9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

The question is why we all come into the world pure of heart as God Himself, is so obvoxious to some people?

Tit 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

It would be an unjust judge who declared a person justified and then said but from now on you have to justify yourself by works of the law.

Actually no. It would be an unjust judge that sets the guilty free, and then tells them they do not have to justify their release by obeying the law.

And of course, the sentence has nothing to do with them who are justified by the faith of Jesus Christ with works toward God.

The only ones justifying themselves, are those who do works of the law to become justified, which disanulls the faith of God. And those who seek to be justified by their faith alone, while transgressing the law, which corrupts the judgment of God.