Romans 4 vs James 2: Newborn babes vs converted Christians

[prism]

Abraham's faith was not the legal sense in which he was justified before God~that would be impossible, for only the faith and obedience of one person is the only grounds of the sinner's free justification, and that would be Christ's...not man's. You quoted this above:

Philippians 3:9​

“And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:”

That's mainly because I was presented with James 2:2, also not justification in the legal sense.

This is not so! It is very true, those born of God do not practice sinning, or, live under its power~but, the desire to sin is their in their FLESH, their old man. It does stay confined within the mind of the old man, (or, at least it should, at times it may not) because the new nature has the power to over come its wicked desires.

Romans 7:18​

“For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.”

Paul, whose new nature desires to live in perfect agreement with God's good, holy, and spiritual law, ~ yet, he saw another law working in his flesh, keeping him from perfectly living in obedience to the law of God, as a matter of fact, this other law Paul saw working desired evil not the good, holy, spiritual law of God. Of course, Paul did not allow this other law have the victory over him, yet it was there and seeking to bring him into the captivity of the law of sin, which he did not allow this to happen. Paul was not speaking of outward sins, but of the inward war of every child of God. Selah.

It was so in my life where a radical turn around took place from practicing unrighteousness and desiring it to practicing righteousness and also desiring it. I agree, even our so called righteousness is enough to damn us if it wasn't for the over arching imputed righteousness of Christ.

 

[Ghada]

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)
We see that only babes are without works in the world.

Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Likewise, only newborn babes in Christ are without works, having been foregiven of all trespasses.

Romans 4 only pertains to the new birth of the Spirit by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

1 Peter{1:3} Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ.

Jas 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

And so we see, that newborn babes without works, therefore must grow with works of obedience to the Father, through the spinkling of the blood of the Lamb. And James 2 addresses Christians with works, not newborn babes freshly forgiven of all past sins.

The rebuke is to anyone having faith with renewed transgressions, and have not the faith of the Lord Jesus Christ, but their own alone.

Romans for is for newborn babes without works, James 2 is for Christians with works. Babes cannot be judged by any works, but Christians are judged by their works, the same as all souls with works on earth:

1 Peter{1:15} But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; {1:16} Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. {1:17} And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning [here] in fear:

The same fear of the Lord by which we repent of all sins and trespasses for Jesus' sake, must be kept in all works we do in His name, else we too will be judged as transgressors and children of diobedience fit for destruction.

 

[Ghada]

Thing is, God did not become an angel to redeem angels/devils, so they have no promise, no hope and therefore cannot have true saving faith, of course they know God is One, having once been in His presence.

Exactly. And any man created in God's image doing the same as devils, have the same faith as devils, without justification.

 

[Ghada]

Abraham was justified upon believing God's promise from the beginning. Abraham grew in faith while he had been justified

True. He was first justified with God by believing His word of promise. He continued justified by that faith with works toward God. His faith in the beginning was working in His steps from the beginning.

James{2:21} Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? {2:22} Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? {2:23} And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
The Scripture of imputed righteousness from God by Abraham's faith, was fulfilled in works justified by God. If Abraham had not offered up Isaac, his faith would not have justified him with God. The imputed righteousness would not have been fulfilled by works.

James{2:21} Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

James 2 is not contradicting Romans 4, by saying a man becomes justified in the beginning by works, whereby he could boast of earning forgivness and justification with God.

Romans 4 shows that Abraham's righteousness began with faith toward God's promise, without works. James 2 shows that our justification begun by faith continues with works toward God.

Jas 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

When our faith is with good works toward God and man, we do well in our justification with God, but if our works transgress the law of Christ, our faith does not justify us with God.

Tit 3:14And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.

1 Thess{3:23} And whatsoever ye do, do [it] heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men; {3:24} Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ. {3:25} But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

When keeping our faith with good works of God, we are justified by our faith toward God. But if we do evil, then our faith is the same as the devils and other transgressors, who also believe in the one true God.

The believers in justification by faith alone in Christ, apart from their works, trust in Romans 4 as newborn babes, to be justified by their faith without works.

They reject the warning to growing Christians with works, that if our faith becomes with transgression, then our faith is not of the Lord Jesus Christ, and does not justify us with God.

Jas 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.
No one transgressing the law of the Lord, such as respect of persons, has not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, but only their own faith alone, which is not more jsutified than any devil and transgressor against God.

Born again Christians (those with a new nature) will have no desire (according to their new man), will have no desire to do unrighteousness.

Exactly true, because the old lust is taken away out of the heart, and the son is born anew with a pure heart and faith in Jesus Christ.

Newborn babes are without works, and not accountable to works. But Christians with works are accountable as all men for our works, without repsect of persons. Babes cannot be judged by works. Only doers of works can be judged by works.

If we maintain doing good toward God and man, we grow in our faith toward God. If we renew sins and trespasses, our faith is become as devils and unrighteous men, who also believe in God.

What we believe does not justify us as children of God, when our works condemn us as children of disobedience.

Jas 2:19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

When we are doing well, we are believing well. If we are doing wrong, we are bleieviing as devils.

We at one time all served satan's desires and even our best righteousness were as filthy rags compared to Christ's righteousness.

True again. One of the 3 kinds of works that do not justify any person with God, is good deeds done to be forgiven for past sins.

God justifies the soul that repents with faith in the mercy of Jesus Christ. God does not justify the proud who seek by good deeds to earn forgiveness for sins.

Once any man sins with lust from the heart, that sinner cannot do any good thing to be justified with God. Only by the faith of Jesus Christ will God forgive and wash away all sins and trespasses, creating a whole new pure creature of God.

2Co 5:17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ,

 

[CrowCross]

Newborn babes are justified by faith without works. Converted Christians are justified with works.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

As you see, I'm not quite following your broken theology.

 

[Ghada]

Newborn babes (in Christ) can give thanks to Christ for saving him/her.

All the justified sons of God can and should give thanks to Jesus for His grace continually.

Otherwise, I'd place absolutely no confidence in my works, only His will do...

Confidence in our works is the pride of unjustified men. Our confidence is in Jesus Christ, that our works are His and justified with God.

Philippians 3:8-11 ESV
Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ [9] and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith- [10] that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, [11] that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.

Newborn babes and sons from the beginning are without works of our own righteousness.

Any man doing unrighteousness is neither a newborn babe no son of God:

Gal 5:19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God....And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

 

[Red Baker]

Yeah, I have been an early Bird,

Now that's good one! You are living true to the name God gave you~Mr. Jim Bird! Yes, you been a early Bird for over 80 plus years! I got up early in the morning carrying papers back in the late fifties, before I went to school. You have me a few years, not much.

 

[Ghada]

Wishing thinking on your part.

Ghada, actually it was big confused mess, and choosing the place to begin to unravel this confused mess was more work than I wanted to waste on you. I chose to heed Christ's exhortation:

Matthew 7:6​

“Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.”

Actually you didn't, which would have been done by remaining silent. Jesus didn't say to pass insults while running away.

Your teachings are full of the teachings of the concision workers, who are evil workers, who go about adding works to free justification by grace alone through the faith and obedience of Jesus Christ.

Concision workers is for those who command outward circumcision to be saved. I haven't done so. Nor have I preached any works necessary to become justified with Christ, such as water baptism, sabbath keeping, works of the law, nor good deeds.

5: Do not misquote or misrepresent another member.

 

[prism]

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)
We see that only babes are without works in the world.

Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Likewise, only newborn babes in Christ are without works, having been foregiven of all trespasses.

Romans 4 only pertains to the new birth of the Spirit by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

1 Peter{1:3} Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ.

Jas 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

And so we see, that newborn babes without works, therefore must grow with works of obedience to the Father, through the spinkling of the blood of the Lamb. And James 2 addresses Christians with works, not newborn babes freshly forgiven of all past sins.

The rebuke is to anyone having faith with renewed transgressions, and have not the faith of the Lord Jesus Christ, but their own alone.

Romans for is for newborn babes without works, James 2 is for Christians with works. Babes cannot be judged by any works, but Christians are judged by their works, the same as all souls with works on earth:

1 Peter{1:15} But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; {1:16} Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. {1:17} And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning [here] in fear:

The same fear of the Lord by which we repent of all sins and trespasses for Jesus' sake, must be kept in all works we do in His name, else we too will be judged as transgressors and children of diobedience fit for destruction.

I don't answer long posts. please condense if you expect an answer.

 

[Ghada]

That is basically Galatianism which Paul sought ernestly to combat. Read and study Galatians.

Show anything I write that violates Galatians, including quotes from me and Galatians.

Meaningless accusations are meaningless. They show only frustration at not being able to find fault in an argument from Scripture, that disagrees with you.

We are saved by grace through faith; we stay saved by grace through faith -- period.

You trust you are, but not the saints in Christ Jesus.

2 pet 1:4 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

James{2:22}Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Period.

 

[prism]

Exactly. And any man created in God's image doing the same as devils, have the same faith as devils, without justification.

ok

 

[prism]

True. He was first justified with God by believing His word of promise. He continued justified by that faith with works toward God. His faith in the beginning was working in His steps from the beginning.

James{2:21} Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? {2:22} Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? {2:23} And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
The Scripture of imputed righteousness from God by Abraham's faith, was fulfilled in works justified by God. If Abraham had not offered up Isaac, his faith would not have justified him with God. The imputed righteousness would not have been fulfilled by works.

James{2:21} Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

James 2 is not contradicting Romans 4, by saying a man becomes justified in the beginning by works, whereby he could boast of earning forgivness and justification with God.

Romans 4 shows that Abraham's righteousness began with faith toward God's promise, without works. James 2 shows that our justification begun by faith continues with works toward God.

Jas 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

When our faith is with good works toward God and man, we do well in our justification with God, but if our works transgress the law of Christ, our faith does not justify us with God.

Tit 3:14And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.

1 Thess{3:23} And whatsoever ye do, do [it] heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men; {3:24} Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ. {3:25} But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

When keeping our faith with good works of God, we are justified by our faith toward God. But if we do evil, then our faith is the same as the devils and other transgressors, who also believe in the one true God.

The believers in justification by faith alone in Christ, apart from their works, trust in Romans 4 as newborn babes, to be justified by their faith without works.

They reject the warning to growing Christians with works, that if our faith becomes with transgression, then our faith is not of the Lord Jesus Christ, and does not justify us with God.

Jas 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.
No one transgressing the law of the Lord, such as respect of persons, has not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, but only their own faith alone, which is not more jsutified than any devil and transgressor against God.


Exactly true, because the old lust is taken away out of the heart, and the son is born anew with a pure heart and faith in Jesus Christ.

Newborn babes are without works, and not accountable to works. But Christians with works are accountable as all men for our works, without repsect of persons. Babes cannot be judged by works. Only doers of works can be judged by works.

If we maintain doing good toward God and man, we grow in our faith toward God. If we renew sins and trespasses, our faith is become as devils and unrighteous men, who also believe in God.

What we believe does not justify us as children of God, when our works condemn us as children of disobedience.

Jas 2:19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

When we are doing well, we are believing well. If we are doing wrong, we are bleieviing as devils.


True again. One of the 3 kinds of works that do not justify any person with God, is good deeds done to be forgiven for past sins.

God justifies the soul that repents with faith in the mercy of Jesus Christ. God does not justify the proud who seek by good deeds to earn forgiveness for sins.

Once any man sins with lust from the heart, that sinner cannot do any good thing to be justified with God. Only by the faith of Jesus Christ will God forgive and wash away all sins and trespasses, creating a whole new pure creature of God.

2Co 5:17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ,

(See post #29 above)

 

[prism]

All the justified sons of God can and should give thanks to Jesus for His grace continually.

Most definitely.

Confidence in our works is the pride of unjustified men. Our confidence is in Jesus Christ, that our works are His and justified with God.

10-4

Any man doing unrighteousness is neither a newborn babe no son of God:

Once we are born again, how many acts of unrighteousness must we do before we are unborn and/or are no longer His Son?

 

[Ghada]

Why would you divide that which God calls one?. milk and meat ?

Heb 5:12For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

Milk of the word, meat of the word .Both needed for Christian growth

True. Newborn babes are without works. Growing children are with good works. Mature Christians remain with good works, having endured all manner of temptation and tribulation with obedience to God.

Impossible to be justified by faith (power) without works .

True, except in the beginning as newborn babes without any works done.

Newborn drink the milk of the word. It teaches us he is gracious even before the opening of the eyes .

Drinking the milk and eating the meat, are doing the good works of God by the faith of Jesus Christ.

The same as obedience to the Lord is drinking His blood and eating His flesh.

The apostles not weaned from milk had a bible study that day

2Pe 1:20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach,,, Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

No chosen prophet nor apostle writing Scripture of God is a babe nor a novice.

You could say no milk, no meat.. . . .starve to death

True. Ungrown babes will die and fall away, if they remain without works, seeking neither to do good nor evil.

Jas 4:17Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Not doing the good we know to do is evil.

Never outgrow the need for grace (milk).

Milke and meat are sincerity and good practice of faith.

Grace is for all that would do good with a pure heart.

called Manna, literally meaning. . . What is it ?

It's Jesus Christ coming down from heaven.

Jhn 6:48I am that bread of life.Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

 

[Ghada]

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Correct. No man becomes forgiven and saved by doing any work, but only by repenting and ceasing from bad works for Jesus' sake.

All forgiven newborn babes in Christ Jesus are without works, even as babes first coming into the world.

All growing sons justified with Christ are maintaining good works for His name's sake.

Romans 4 for newborn babes, and James 2 for walking Christians.

 

[Red Baker]

Concision workers is for those who command outward circumcision to be saved. I haven't done so. Nor have I preached any works necessary to become justified with Christ, such as water baptism, sabbath keeping, works of the law, nor good deeds.

5: Do not misquote or misrepresent another member.

Where do I start?

Salvation and justification with God is at once complete through faith in Jesus Christ. Salvation and justification continue through obedience to the Son.

Again:

Does God justify ungodly men in their ungodly deeds? Or, does Jesus Christ justify the ungodly that repent of their ungodly deeds?

Again:

The gospel of Jesus Christ is repent and be justified by His faith toward God and His righteousness. He does not acquit and justify the unrighteous in their unrighteousness.

Again:

By our works are we all judged and rewarded according to our deeds, whether good unto life or evil unto death.

Again:

Newborn babes are justified by faith without works. Converted Christians are justified with works.

The resolution of Romans 4 justification by faith without works, and James 2 justification by works with faith, is found by who is being spoken about and to: Newborn babes without works vs converted Christians with works.

Just a a few....Saved this one for last. Now, which one do we need to expose as a false gospel?

 

[Ghada]

I don't answer long posts. please condense if you expect an answer.

All my posts are written point by point. You can start from the beginning and select the first one you see, that you agree or disagree with.

If you disagree with any part, then please show how the reasoning is in error, and I'll be glad to change it.

 

[Ghada]

Once we are born again, how many acts of unrighteousness must we do before we are unborn and/or are no longer His Son?

How many did Adam do, before that son died to God?

Many say by that one transgression alone, all men are made sinners without God. Which of course isn't true. Souls only die by their own transgression.

Rom 5:12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

1Jo 3:10In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Anyone doing unrighteousness, is not of God.

 

[CrowCross]

Correct. No man becomes forgiven and saved by doing any work, but only by repenting and ceasing from bad works for Jesus' sake.

Quite the twist

You said.....Newborn babes are justified by faith without works. Converted Christians are justified with works.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Now, please answer the question. What do you do with Eph 2:8? Where does it say salvation is a result of not doing bad works in Eph 2:8?

 

[Ghada]

Where do I start?

Again:

Again:

Again:

Again:

Just a a few....Saved this one for last. Now, which one do we need to expose as a false gospel?

Anyone of them will do.

If there's any error in any of these arguments made from the Scriptures provided, or any other Scripture can be given, that directly contradicts any, then I'll be glad to change it for the better.

Perfecting the doctrine of Christ is the main thing, not always being right in our arguments.

2 Tim 3:16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Prov 9:8 Correct a wise man, and he will love thee.