Romans 4 vs James 2: Newborn babes vs converted Christians

[prism]

Scripture speaks of justification without works, but never of any justification with God set apart from works.

(Rom 3:28) For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. (faith alone)


(Rom 4:5) But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

 

[Ghada]

God justifies the ungodly, through/by the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ~without works, including man's faith,

Well said. Not many make the distinction between having our own faith about God, and having the faith of Jesus Christ toward God.

Eph{2:8} For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Neither our own faith nor our own works can justify us with the righteous Lord.

Man's own faith is in himself, and only leads to continued death in sins and trespasses. But Jesus Christ's faith is righteous, and always does His righteousness as He is righteous.

God justifies the ungodly, through/by the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ~without works, including man's faith, repentance,

This departs from the gospel of Jesus Christ to repent and be saved from sins and converted to His righteousness.

Acts 3:19Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Acts{11:17} Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as [he did] unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? {11:18} When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Cor {7:10} For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of:

The victorious risen Lord Jesus only gives mercy and forgives His enemies that repent wholeheartedly of works against Him, and unconditionally surrender to His Lordship and will.

Without any repentance, or with only half hearted repentance, no man can come to the Lord for His mercy and salvation from sinning against Him.

Ezek 18:31Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Jerem 3:10And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD.

Hosea{7:8} Ephraim, he hath mixed himself among the people; Ephraim is a cake not turned.

Mat 12:33Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

Rev{3:15} I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. {3:16} So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

and his baptism in water,

True. No one becomes saved and justified by any work, whether of law, personal righteousness, nor philanthropy.

On him that justifieth the ungodly.

And the question remains: Does God justify the ungodly doing ungodliness, or justify the repented ungodly to become the godly doing godliness?

The identical language used of Abraham (Gen 15:6) and Phinehas (Ps 106:31) is used here for those who show their righteousness by faith in God and His Son Jesus Christ (4:23-25). Faith is the first evidence of righteousness granted by God for numerous reasons. Faith is the consequence of bestowed righteousness through Jesus Christ (II Peter 1:1). Faith in God from men without understanding by nature is evidence indeed (3:11). Faith in God from men that never sought God by nature is evidence indeed (3:11). Faith in God from men that had no fear of God before their eyes is evidence (3:18).

The main thrust of your teaching appears to pertain to becoming saved and jsutified with God. God saves sinners by recieving His faith. Becoming born sons of God has nothing to do with our own faith and works.

Other than rejecting your implication that repentance is not first commanded to recieve the faith of the Justifier, then I don't object to anything else.

Unless you say we are justified children of faith, while also doing the same works of the children of disobedience.

Other than repentance from our own dead works, nothing else is commanded of any man to become forgiven and redeemed by the faith and Spirit recieved by grace from Jesus Christ.

And other than loving God with all the heart, and our neighbors as ourselves in all holiness and fear of the Lord, nothing else is commanded to be justified sons of God unto the end, and inherit the reward of resurrection unto life.

 

[Red Baker]

This departs from the gospel of Jesus Christ to repent and be saved from sins and converted to His righteousness.

Ghada, to me, reading some of your posts, you seem to be honest, just confused. Please consider while I explain myself, and then see if this may help you. I truly trust that it will with God helping me to make it as clear as possible. Sometimes it is the fault of the writer/speaker, but, it also could be the fault of those hearing, which generally it is ~ that's why I generally read post to me more than once, to make sure I'm reading and understanding them correctly.

Well said. Not many make the distinction between having our own faith about God, and having the faith of Jesus Christ toward God.

Agreed.

This departs from the gospel of Jesus Christ to repent and be saved from sins and converted to His righteousness.

Acts 3:19Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Acts{11:17} Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as [he did] unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? {11:18} When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Cor {7:10} For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of:

It does not depart, but, does rightly divide scriptures so that, we allow them to have a consistence perfect flow from one to another, so that, the truth can be seen properly and not be guilty mixing works with God's grace to sinners through the faith and obedience of Jesús Christ.

Ghada, men must be born again first by the Spirit of God, before they can do works acceptable unto God such as believing, repenting and being baptized in water. Acts 2:38; Acts 8:37; and even John the Baptist said clearly:

Luke 3:3​

“And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;”'

The word "for" the remission of sins here is because of....!

Luke 3:8​

“Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.”

If a person could bring forth fruit worthy of repentance, then the gift to repent has already been granted with the power to do so!
We do not teach, and certainly to not believe that a person who professes to have faith, will continue to live as they have always lived, there will be fruits of godly repentance seen clearly in their life, if not, then their faith is worthless, no better than devils who at least trembled knowing of a future judgement coming for them.

What are teh evidences of true repentance? Let Paul tell us:

2nd Corinthians 7:9-11​

“Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing. For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.”

The salvation in these few scriptures is a practical salvation proving ourselves to be true children of God by our works! Some of these godly acts/fruits may take time to perform as we grow in grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ, but they are true evidences of fruits of those born of God. Without such godly fruits, we should have every reason to make of election and calling of God sure.

The victorious risen Lord Jesus only gives mercy and forgives His enemies that repent wholeheartedly of works against Him, and unconditionally surrender to His Lordship and will.

He shows mercy to sinners and creates a new man within them so that they have the power to do things godly acts, (a huge difference than what you are teaching) for without the Spirit of God within a person, it would be impossible to please God. Romans 8:4-14

You are having sinners doing works that even saints having trouble performing to the degree you say sinners must do! That's preaching another gospel.

Without any repentance, or with only half hearted repentance, no man can come to the Lord for His mercy and salvation from sinning against Him.

That's false. I would say, based upon the word of God, that no man can claim to be of the faith of Jesus Christ, without showing forth true repentance and living a life of godliness. One does not do such thing in order to become a child of God, for that's impossible, for to be accepted with God, one's life must be perfect without sin, and Jesus Christ alone fulfilled that for us, we have been accepted with God on the behalf of Jesus Christ, not based upon any work that we have done, or will do.

 

[Mr GLee]

Therefore, by this teaching Abraham was not imputed righteous by faith without works, but with works, which also were works opposing God and His faith.

The tradition of setting apart works from justification by faith alone, is not as traditionally said to avoid boasting of works, but we see is also to justify the person, while doing works of bad faith toward God.

I would offer the manner of faith it can get confusing . Faith is the unseen or what I call the "Let there be "power of Christ that works in us. Our Emmauel,

Jesus declared its a evil generation that seeks after a sign before they wil believe. Not one sign was given we have the perfect.

Like all words Satan having no spiritual understanding would deny the gospel understanding as Power .

Faith is a work .

Satan can take away the Faithfull power of Christ that works in us. By his lying signs to wonder, wonder, wonder after as "if" true prophecy (sola scriptura) the let there be power of faith..

Every time the word faith is used in all forms it represents the power of Christ or the father of lies . . not of our self.powerless

No faith no power.

His faith as a labor of love is never alone. . . . and it was God alone good

James 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of (belonging to) our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.(like the faithless Pope)

James 2: 7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?

James 2:22 Seest thou how (Christ's )faith wrought with his (Christ) works, and by works was faith (Power) made perfect?And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God,(by the fasith of God) and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Attributing that power to Abraham of Rehab or any sons of God violates the loving commandment not to have the power of Christ that works in dying mankind in respect to any person.

The new power red-letter word faith edition The Urban Alternative (LOL)

Faith as Power never alone Yoked with him our daily burden can be lighter; Faith the power to believe the gift. Prior no faith not little dead powerless

Proverbs 11:13 A talebearer revealeth secrets: but he that is of a faithful (Powerful) spirit concealeth the matter.

Matthew 8:26 And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith?(Little power) Then he arose, and (powerfully)rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.

Proverbs 25:13 As the cold of snow in the time of harvest, so is a faithful (empowered) messenger to them that send him: for he refresheth the soul ofhis masters.

Proverbs 27:6 Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful.

 

[Ghada]

Scripture as it is written is God's tradition.

True. Words not written in Scripture, are man's traditions.

 

[Ghada]

And in fact the poster does does believe that all men are made sinners by Adam but says since the cross (the ones before the cross I think he attaches some "retro active" application even though they have already been born and died) everyone without exception is made righteous. Imagine the chaos in that plan!

Yes. I asked him for clarification. That would be confusion not of God.

Jesus Christ the Creator does not change, but always has, does, and shall create all things the same good way with His pleasure.

Rev 4:11Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

He did not change creating man in His own good image, because a man sinned, no more than He creates any angels evil, because an angel sinned.

Jhn 1:2The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men....That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Man created in His image is with pure hearts. Babes come into the world lightened by Christ's love, but no babe is righteous or evil, having done neither good nor evil.

Rom 9:11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

So it is with all newly repented converts in Christ, who are created anew with a pure heart and clean conscience. As with all newborn babes that are without works being all forgiven and forgotten.

Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

However "all" does not always have to mean "without exception", even when used in the same equation. For example "All of the roads were used by all of the people." That means all the roads without exception, but it does not mean that all the people without exception use all the roads without exception.

God creating all things good applies to all His creatures. But being created in His image only applies to all men and women on earth.

So in order to understand those statements in Romans, we have to make it agree with what we clearly know.

True. We know that all men are equally created good coming into the world, and all men have sinned in the world, and all men that repent of their sins for Jesus' sake are created good again, with all things once again new and of God in Christ Jesus.

2Co 5:17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ,

We know all men without exception are sinners and this is so through Adam.

We know all men have sinned like Adam and died to God. We also know all men redeemed in Christ Jesus are born alive again to God, and are no more sinners, but are righteous saints conformed to His image.

1Jo 3:8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

1Jo 3:9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

We know that all men without exception are not saved.

True. Because of the hardness of hearts to repent not, and be delivered from the lust and sins of the world.

2 Peter 3:9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Mat 1:21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Jhn 1:29The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
2 Cor 6:2(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)... Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work.

 

[Ghada]

No, Romans 5:14-19 Is not about how we became sinners.

True. Romans 5 is about all men have become sinners dead to God, as Adam. Romans 5:12 is how all men have become sinners like Adam, by sinning like Adam.

Rom 5:12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Sin does not pass upon men, unless we sin. Death has passed upon all men, because all men have sinned, save one.

That begins in 5:20 and continues from there. but verses 14-19, specifically, deal with the effect of Jesus' obedience and righteousness on the state of the spirit of man as he comes into the world.

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Not coming into the world, but coming to Christ to be forgiven of all sins and trespasses.

All men were always, from the very beginning, made in God's image. That image becomes damaged only once sin has been committed. Man becomes depraved when he sins; he is not born that way.

Amen!

Have I misread you?

That begins in 5:20 and continues from there. but verses 14-19, specifically, deal with the effect of Jesus' obedience and righteousness on the state of the spirit of man as he comes into the world.

Does this not mean the spirit of man was sinful coming into the world after Adam, and before Jesus Christ died and rose again?

Once again, I will remember your insight to proving how God creates all men, with His grace. How then can anyone be made sinners in the womb, except there be another Creator and Maker than the true God by Jesus Christ?

 

[Ghada]

No, I am saying that Jesus Christ's death was effective retroactively back to the very beginning.

Yes, the slaying of the Lamb of God on a cross concludes all men that sin, are made guilty of His innocent shed blood the same as the wicked hands that slew Him, beginning with Adam and continuing today.

Rev 13:8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Heb 6:5If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

The Lord was made the Lamb slain toward man, when man first sinned toward Him in the garden of Eden after the foundation of the world.

Only on the new earth created by Him, will He not be the Lamb slain from the foundation of world, since this world will have passed away.

Rev 22:1And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

Rev 22:3And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

 

[Red Baker]

True. Words not written in Scripture, are man's traditions.

Ghada, I have made several post to you with no answer so far ~ one here recently~#103; several here: https://christcentered.community.forum/threads/rom-9-confirms-free-will-of-man.2314/ a thread you started.

 

[Ghada]

Faith is a work (let there be ) and the testimony was (God alone good) .

True. By faith God created the heavens and the earth, and by faith Jesus Christ always does those things pleasing to God.

Receiving His faith by repentance from dead works, is the work of the Spirit to circumcise the heart from lust, that by His faith we also do the works of God in Christ Jesus.

Faith is power to believe the unseen eternal things

Having the faith of Jesus Christ is the power to believe unto His righteousness, and sin not.

Rom 10:9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Satan who is not subject to faith,

He is subject to his own faith alone, the same as all devils and men that believe and do unrighteousness.

Jas 2:19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

The unrighteous that believe, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, but have their own faith in themselves.

Jas 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

Eph{2:8} For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

 

[Ghada]

Ghada, I have made several post to you with no answer so far ~ one here recently~#103; several here: https://christcentered.community.forum/threads/rom-9-confirms-free-will-of-man.2314/ a thread you started.

I'll copy this to make sure I respond, but I try to respond in order as a courtesy.

I respect the manner and persuasiveness of your arguments, even when disagreeing.

 

[Ghada]

That is not a good understanding of "tradition". Tradition is 100% man. It may be based upon what God given us verbally though prophets or in writing, again from prophets. But tradition is man-derived and may be either right or wrong, correct or incorrect.

This is a little off. When Scripture speaks of man's tradition, it is false tradition from man, not God. When Scripture speaks of good tradition, it is God's tradition given to us by Scripture.

Col 2:8Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

2Th 3:6
Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

The tradition we recieve from the apostles of Christ, are the Scriptures given to them for our sakes.

All tradition is either 100% man and not Scripture, or 100% God confirmed by Scripture. All man derived tradition is false, and all true tradition is derived from God's own written words.

Now, if you want to talk about the tradition of expounding accurately on the words of God, then that is also aproved by God in Scripture:

Neh 8:8So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.

2Ti 2:15Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Acts 18:24 And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.

 

[Ghada]

I can't tell if you really believe that or if you are just grasping at straws.

It should be clear enough. The tradition that nothing can separate us from God and His love, is plainly false, since from the beginning with Adam, we separate ourselves from God by our iniquities against Him.

Romans 8 never says nothing can separate us from God, but only that no one other than ourselves can separate us from the love God in Christ Jesus.

The Scripture is both a promise and a warning: No other creature can separate us from God, so long as we remain faithful to Him. But, if we ourselves are separated from Jesus Christ by our own disobedience, then we cannot blame anyone else than ourselves, whether it be the devil, another person, or God Himself.

Jas 1:13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Now, if you want to show any error in this argument from the Scriptures, then I'd be glad to see it.

Otherwise, the traditional bromide of 'nothing can separate us from God and His love", is not written anywhere in Scripture. That saying is only a traditional false reading of certain Scriptures.

And it leads believers to be decieved into thinking we are still with God and uncondemned by God, even if and when we are doing evil like other men, who are separated from God by their own iniquities.

Well, I did not say nothing can separate us from God.

Arial said:
and nothing can separate them from his love.

If you have a definition of being separated from God's love, but not from God, then I'd be glad to hear it. Otherwise, it's a distinction without a difference.

1Jo 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

God is love. Separation from His love is separation from Himself.

We are born separated from him.

The true God and Creator does not create any man apart from His own image.

Once again, being separated from God is separated from His own image.

Gen 1:26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:…So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them…And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply…

Rev 4:11Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Jhn 1:9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Hebrews{13:8} Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not:

Jesus Christ is the only Maker of all men and women coming into the world. And He has not changed making us in His image, and lightening us from the womb.

The god of this worls is not now a creator of anyone in his own image, to be born his children from the womb. The devil is only the maker of lies, which he makes against Jesus Christ as the Creator of sinners of the devil from the womb.

The passages in Romans are about not being separated from Christ's love. It is in fact an OSAS statement.

I agree an erroneous tradition from it is from OSAS. I have found most all false traditions pertaining to salvation and justification, are from OSAS. The desire to be justified with God by our faith alone, apart from any works we do, whether good or evil, is the oldest false promise in the Book.

Gen 3:4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: {3:5} For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

When one is sealed in Christ by the Holy Spirit, and through faith, nothing can break that seal.

I.e. nothing can separate the bleiever from the Holy Spirit and His seal, from God and His love?

Of course nothing can't. Because nothing can't do anything.

But it is manifest that something can separate us from the seal of the Holy Spirit, because His union is broken everytime anyone transgresses against God, His love, and His law: The same as adultery ends a marriage.

Eph 5:31For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Rom 11:19 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

We are willing prisoners of the Lord for His name and love's sake. No one is an unwilling habitation of the Holy Spirit as by demon possession.

The subject was from Rom 8. There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus and nothing can separate them from Christ's love.

And no one grieving and sinning against the Holy Spirit is in Christ Jesus.

And no one doing unrighteousness is walking after the Spirit, nor in the Light, nor inheriting the everlasting kingdom of Jesus Christ.

1 Cor 6:9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind…Gal 5:19 and such like of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Nah 1:3The LORD is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked:

 

[Arial]

It should be clear enough. The tradition that nothing can separate us from God and His love, is plainly false, since from the beginning with Adam, we separate ourselves from God by our iniquities against Him

Paul wrote that to Christians, believers, not unbelievers. Don't you know that?

Romans 8 never says nothing can separate us from God, but only that no one other than ourselves can separate us from the love God in Christ Jesus.

It says nothing can. It does not add nothing but ourselves can separate us from his love. You add that. We are warned to neither add to or take away from what God says in his word. If the believer cannot trust in God's perfect love, a love that does not ebb and flow, but is constant, he cannot trust God at all. And he commands us to trust him. What does his word say? "Even when we are unfaithful, he remains faithful."

The Scripture is both a promise and a warning: No other creature can separate us from God, so long as we remain faithful to Him. But, if we ourselves are separated from Jesus Christ by our own disobedience, then we cannot blame anyone else than ourselves, whether it be the devil, another person, or God Himself.

Jas 1:13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Now, if you want to show any error in this argument from the Scriptures, then I'd be glad to see it.

You are talking about two different things as though they were the same thing. James 1:13 does not say that our sin separates us from God. He is explaining how sin is birthed. Being separated from God is a different topic and that is most clear in Romans 8. Nothing can separate us from his love. If we are disobedient and continue to be so without remorse or repentance, we will be disciplined and corrected by him---just as a father disciplines his children and corrects them, but does not stop loving them.

2 Tim 2:11-13 The saying is trustworthy, for: If we have died with him, we will also live with him; if we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us; if we are faithless, he remains faithful---for he cannot deny himself.

Phil 1:6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

It would help if you knew that Jesus did not leave us as orphans but sent the Holy Spirit to complete the good work in us that began when he brought us into union with Christ. Instead of depending on yourself and telling everyone else they are damned if they don't also depend on themselves. Now, I know you have used those exact words, but that is what it amounts to.

Well, I did not say nothing can separate us from God. We are born separated from him. The passages in Romans are about not being separated from Christ's love. It is in fact an OSAS statement. When one is sealed in Christ by the Holy Spirit, and through faith, nothing can break that seal.

Arial said:
and nothing can separate them from his love.

If you have a definition of being separated from God's love, but not from God, then I'd be glad to hear it. Otherwise, it's a distinction without a difference

It helps if you don't separate what I say from its context.

Well, I did not say nothing can separate us from God. We are born separated from him. The passages in Romans are about not being separated from Christ's love. It is in fact an OSAS statement. When one is sealed in Christ by the Holy Spirit, and through faith, nothing can break that seal.

The true God and Creator does not create any man apart from His own image.

Once again, being separated from God is separated from His own image.

Being separated from God is being at enmity with him because we are sinners. We still have his image and likeness. We simply don't do what we are supposed to do as that image bearer. You are mistaken in almost everything you say and refuse to learn any differently. That is bad news.

I.e. nothing can separate the bleiever from the Holy Spirit and His seal, from God and His love?

Of course nothing can't. Because nothing can't do anything.

Is the stupidity of those statements deliberate? Or just deliberate obfuscation?

But it is manifest that something can separate us from the seal of the Holy Spirit, because His union is broken everytime anyone transgresses against God, His love, and His law: The same as adultery ends a marriage.

Give three examples of the sealing in Christ of the Holy Spirit being broken from the Bible.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

A blind person does not see or enter the kingdom of heaven and so has not been sealed in Christ.

Rom 11:19 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

A caution to let go of the arrogance the Gentiles in that audience had towards the Jews. It does not say anyone in Christ will be taken out. That would be Christ paying the high price for their forgiveness and then having it no longer do so.

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

It says do not grieve the Holy Spirit and it also says they are sealed unto the day of redemption. So grieving him does not break the seal.

I have wasted enough time on this. I have important things to do.

 

[Mr GLee]

I would think nothing could separate us from his love as it is written The source or power of Christ's faith if he has begun the good teaching work of salvation. He will finish

Daily sin does separate if we hear his voice and harden our own hearts

.One standard Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law (Bible) shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

 

[Red Baker]

I'll copy this to make sure I respond, but I try to respond in order as a courtesy.

Fair enough~thank you.

 

[JIM]

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Not coming into the world, but coming to Christ to be forgiven of all sins and trespasses.

Not true. The contrast in the passage is between the effect of Adam's disobedience upon all mankind and the effect of Jesus' obedience upon all mankind. Paul is not speaking there of the sins of man, but rather the condition of man's spirit when he enters the world. Jesus' obedience negated any effect that Adam's disobedience might have had.

 

[JIM]

Have I misread you?

I would hope not.

Does this not mean the spirit of man was sinful coming into the world after Adam, and before Jesus Christ died and rose again?

No, It means that the effect of Jesus' death on the cross was retroactive back to the very beginning, both as it relates to negating the effect of Adam's sin upon mankind and as it relates to the effect upon the repentant believing sinner.

Once again, I will remember your insight to proving how God creates all men, with His grace. How then can anyone be made sinners in the womb, except there be another Creator and Maker than the true God by Jesus Christ?

Good. We are not born in Original Sin, rather, we are all born in Original Grace.

 

[Red Baker]

We are not born in Original Sin, rather, we are all born in Original Grace.

Jim, you are so wrong, so much wrong, it should concern you. Your understanding is against so much of the testimony of the word of God.
All men are born with a sinful nature, received from Adam, a nature that has no limits to the wickedness, it can be guilty of, apart from God restraining them men.

Psalms 76:10​

“Surely the wrath of man shall praise thee: the remainder of wrath shalt thou restrain.”

Jesus taught:

John 3:6​

“That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”

The fleshly birth by two flesh parents yields a child with only a flesh nature. Flesh is a spiritual term describing depraved humanity (Gen 5:3; Job 14:14; Ps 51:5; 58:3; John 1:13; Rom 8:7; Ist Pet 3:21; 2nd Cor 7:1). Consider more:

Romans 8:3-9​

“For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh. That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

Jim, no man is born in your so-called Original grace, whatever that means. Only Jesus Christ, whose Father was the Holy Ghost, was free from Adam's fallen sinful nature, which nature is at enmity against God. Jesús came in the "likeness of" sinful flesh, all others since Adam and Eve, are conceived and born with a sinful flesh.

Believers are NOT in the flesh ~That is, we are not carnal, but spiritual men; we are not in a state of unregeneracy, but in a state of grace. This is not so with men born of the flesh, such men are at the mercy of God for deliverance, since they are in bondage to sin and the devil himself. They are not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be is the testimony of the Holy Ghost.

 

[JIM]

Jim, you are so wrong, so much wrong, it should concern you. Your understanding is against so much of the testimony of the word of God.
All men are born with a sinful nature, received from Adam, a nature that has no limits to the wickedness, it can be guilty of, apart from God restraining them men.

All men are born with a sinful nature, just like Adam. Having a sinful nature is not a sin. It is how mankind was created. And all of the rest of that post derives from your not understanding that simple truth.

Jesus taught:​

John 3:6​

“That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”

And rightly so. Our spirit comes from Spirit. It is born of spirit. It is not born of flesh. Your traducianism is false. John 3:5 declares that is it false. Listen.

When we sin, we damage that spirit That damage is referred to as being dead in trespasses and sins. Once damaged by sin, it needs to be REborn, REgenerated, REpaired. That happens when we are forgiven our sins and we are given the gift, the indwelling, Holy Spirit. God then treats us as once again having that undamaged spirit and much more.

The fleshly birth by two flesh parents yields a child with only a flesh nature. Flesh is a spiritual term describing depraved humanity (Gen 5:3; Job 14:14; Ps 51:5; 58:3; John 1:13; Rom 8:7; Ist Pet 3:21; 2nd Cor 7:1).

Parents have nothing to do with the origin and condition of the spirit. Our spirits come from God. Flesh is simply the biblical term often meaning human being, the physical being. It is not a spiritual term, whatever that might be.