Romans 4 vs James 2: Newborn babes vs converted Christians

[Ghada]

Quite the twist

You said.....Newborn babes are justified by faith without works.

Rom 4:6Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Converted Christians are justified with works.

James{2:21} Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?...Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Jesus Christ says both. All the Lord's words must be taken together to accurately teach and do any of His words.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Now, please answer the question. What do you do with Eph 2:8?

The same as before.

Where does it say salvation is a result of not doing bad works in Eph 2:8?

Salvation is not a result of repentance alone. But salvation certainly isn't without repentance first.

Acts 3:19Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Cor {7:10} For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of:

Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

Again, all Scripture must be taken together to know the truth of any Scripture. Forgiveness and mercy to salvation is by repentance from our bad works to forgiveness and mercy.

It is not possible to become newborn babes in Christ without works, if we still have our old bad works.

And being saved by Jesus Christ is not by repenting from bad works alone, but by doing so for Jesus' sake.

Any man can repent of doing bad for whatever earthly reason in this life, whether health, family, profession, society, etc... but only them repenting with godly sorrow for forgiveness and mercy of God's Son, can become newborn sons of God.

2Co 5:17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ,

in Eph 2:8?

It's in Acts 3:19, 1 Cor 7:10, Heb 4:9. There are more.

Isolating one Scripture from any other Scriptures, is taking away authority from all the other Scriptures.

Salvation in Eph 2:8 must be believed in context of all other scriptures, that speak of being justified by Christ. Including James 2:22.

 

[prism]

Many say by that one transgression alone, all men are made sinners without God. Which of course isn't true. Souls only die by their own transgression.

Romans 5:17,19 ESV
For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. [19] For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.

 

[prism]

All my posts are written point by point. You can start from the beginning and select the first one you see, that you agree or disagree with.

If you disagree with any part, then please show how the reasoning is in error, and I'll be glad to change it.

Just thought you were expecting a response, guess not.

 

[JIM]

Show anything I write that violates Galatians, including quotes from me and Galatians.

Meaningless accusations are meaningless. They show only frustration at not being able to find fault in an argument from Scripture, that disagrees with you.


You trust you are, but not the saints in Christ Jesus.

2 pet 1:4 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

James{2:22}Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Period.

The works relationship that James speaks of is works that are conducted based upon a saving faith. I am a fan of Jordan Peterson. He has said on several occasions that people ask him if he believes in God. He says he doesn't like the question. First, he says how can anyone say they believe in God and then not do what God says. Next, he says that he tries to live and act as if he believes in God. I think that is essentially James' premise concerning works. If you have faith, then you will do the works. If you don't do the works, you really cannot claim to have faith.

In reply #13 you stated that "Newborn babies are justified by faith without works". Babies don't have faith. They do not believe in God, in Jesus Christ or in the gospel in any sense whatsoever. They are incapable of any such thing. Moreover, babies can't sin, and they haven 't sinned. They do not need to be justified. The will need to be justified only after they have committed a sin.

Galatianism is that which Paul is preaching against in the letter to the Galatians. That shows up mainly in chapter 3. His question in 3:2, "did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?", sums it up. He continues in verse 3, "Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?" It is the false notion that so many, even today, continue to believe, namely that we are saved by faith; but we stay saved by works. That is false. We are saved by grace through faith, and we stay saved by grace through faith.

You continued in reply #3, saying, "Converted Christians are justified with works." That is wrong. We are justified by faith. By faith we do works (James and Heb 11).

 

[JIM]

Romans 5:17,19 ESV
For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. [19] For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.

That is so often misunderstood. The "many" made righteous are precisely the same "many" made sinners.

Rom 5:18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

The "all men" justified are precisely the same "all men" condemned.

There is absolutely no basis, except a pre-biased theological concept, for thinking otherwise. So how can that be? Is Paul preaching universal salvation for all? No, because the subject at hand is not about salvation from personal sin. Rather the subject at hand is how is one born into this world. We know that because that is what is demanded by the grammatical construction of the "For as by -- so by" and the "so then as -- even so" argument. What Paul is saying there that because of the obedience and the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross anything that might have accrued to the newborn because of Adam's disobedience was voided and made null and void. It says there that we are not born in Original Sin; rather, we are born in Original Grace. It is only when we sin that we become dead, spiritually, in trespasses and sins. No one is dead, spiritually, in Adam's sin. We are born righteous. Once we sin we become unrighteous and need to be reborn, regenerated.

 

[Mr GLee]

True, except in the beginning as newborn babes without any works done.

The work of grace is a labor of Christ's love ....

The same as obedience to the Lord is drinking His blood and eating His flesh.

What do you think the parable "drinking His blood and eating His flesh" is teaching ?

Faith is it a work he does with is us. Without him it cannot be done..

Faith is a work . Many deny Christ needs faith as if faith as a work only applied to the creation and not the faith as power of the Faithful Creator

 

[Red Baker]

Anyone of them will do.

If there's any error in any of these arguments made from the Scriptures provided, or any other Scripture can be given, that directly contradicts any, then I'll be glad to change it for the better.

Perfecting the doctrine of Christ is the main thing, not always being right in our arguments.

2 Tim 3:16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Prov 9:8 Correct a wise man, and he will love thee.

The whole proverb said:​

Proverbs 9:8​

Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee.​

Yes we should learn to judge properly for reasons given in this Proverb. The question is~ Can we identify a scorner and a wise man? Do we know how to treat each one? God wants his children to be prudent and successful with people. We should avoid scorners, for they do not deserve truth and will hate you, and then give many reasons as to why their hatred is justified. Yes, we can and should correct wise men, and they will love us.

All of us should be testing our character. Are we a scorner or a wise man? The difference is huge. It depends on how we take correction. Either we are the worst person in Proverbs, the best, or in between. God and good men will either show you more truth or let you live life in error.

It is very true fools hate to be corrected, for their ignorant hearts presume they are right (Pr 12:15; 23:9). Scorners are even worse than fools, for their raging pride will not accept rebuke; they will hate the message and the messenger (Pr 9:7). Their haughty conceit causes them to despise instruction, correction, or warning (Pr 26:12). We must beware of them, an dnot waste time on them.

A haughty and self-righteous person will reject seven men with good reasons (Pr 26:16). Scorners reject advice that could save them, for they arrogantly hate being corrected. They have eaten the bread of conceit for so long, they are beyond hope (Pr 21:24). They are an abomination to men (Pr 24:9); if we are wise, you will throw them out (Pr 22:10).

While you might rebuke them a few times to shut their mouths (Pr 26:5), you must soon end arguing with them for wise reasons (Pr 26:4; 23:9). Wrangling, debating, or entertaining the questions of such persons is foolish and wrong (II Tim 2:16,23; I Tim 6:3-5; Tit 3:9). I have learn very painfully the precious wisdom of this advice which has set me free and give me peace.

The Lord Jesus taught this proverb in Matthew 7:6, where He commanded you not to cast your pearls before swine nor give holy things to dogs. The pearls and holy things are the precious jewels of God’s wisdom and truth. He gave two wise reasons. These conceited, brute beasts will first mock your words, and then they will twist them against you.

Good men avoid these wicked people. You are not obligated to debate them. We must be careful not let our pride honor them by continuing to fight. We have been warned to leave them alone. Such are not worthy of wisdom and truth.

yes, we must learn to love reproof, for that is how to get wiser (Pr 9:9; 19:20). Solomon identified the ability to take correction as one of the best measures of wisdom (Pr 15:5,31). We limit our friends to wise men, to help us to be wiser (Pr 13:20).

Jesus obeyed this proverb toward scorners He met. After rebuking and shaming them, He would walk away (Luke 13:17). He said about them, “Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up. Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch” (Matt 15:12-14).

To the degree one is a scorner, God has already left such a person in arrogant ignorance, but most are too stupid to know it (Is 44:19-20). To the degree you are a wise man and love correction, God will show you more truth (Pr 4:18). This is the simple but profound rule of God’s dealings with men.

Anyone of them will do.

Okay, let me see.

 

[CrowCross]

It is not possible to become newborn babes in Christ without works,

The only work is the work of Christ Jesus.

 

[JIM]

The only work is the work of Christ Jesus.

Faith is needed. Faith is a work, even though it is not a work of law.

 

[Mr GLee]

Faith is needed. Faith is a work, even though it is not a work of law.

The letter of the law thou shalt not (Death)

The law of faith (the unseen eternal things of God

Faith Power

Faith as a understanding is a creative work "let there be" and as evidence to that labor of love the testimony" it was God alone good" .the testimony of faith unseen power

Human faith according to the conscience of men it cannot create rudiments. from nothing .God is greater than our conscience. He knows all things the end from the beginning.

In that sense in relationships they can recreate the unseen power called faith (belief) .

An example of power (faith) My wife who I faithfully trust as a good wok in mutual submission by faith declares to her apostle Mr. Glee.; . . I am sending you on a adventure to the supermarket with a list not to add or subtract from .Upon completing the mission impossible. I received the apostles reward two peanut butter cookies and a cold glass of milk

Satan who has no faith not subject to it .He would try and divide faith from and it was Christ good power that does work

The word Faith, Faithful, Faithfulness e.t.c. always speak of the unseen power of Christ . It used 335 times with the exception of one Called no faith (no belief) evil generation

.Faith could be bolded in red through out the Bible. . power of his creative faith as it is written Highlighted as a daily powerful reminder .

The Power of Faith edition

Psalm 89:5 And the heavens shall praise thy wonders, O Lord: thy faithfulness also in the congregation of the saints.

Psalm 89:37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful (powerful) witness in heaven. Selah.

Not the power of Abraham or Rahab

James 2:17;26 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my (Christs) works.Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was (Christ's) faith made perfect?And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?For as the body without the spirit is dead, so (Christ in us) faith (without Christ labor of love )works is dead also.

 

[Ghada]

Romans 5:17,19 ESV
For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man,

Death reigned through that man Adam when he transgressed. Likewise, death reigns through every man that transgresses the Lord.

Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Rom 5:12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Eze 18:20The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father,
The revelation of Scripture in the world, is that man is created in God's own good image, and that any man or woman committing sin against God's good will commits spiritual suicide.

much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.

All that repent for Jesus' sake, are saved from sin and death reigning over them. His righteousness now reigns in our mortal bodies, to obey it and the commandments thereof.

The judgment of Scripture to the world, is that any one transgression is death to the soul, by the lust thereof.

Jas 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

[19] For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.

The first man to sin makes himself a sinner, and leads the way for others to sin and make themselves sinners likewise.

No man can say to God that another man makes them sin, nor that the devil made me do it. All are made sinners by their own sinning.

The first man to obey righteousness is the righteous, that leads the way for others to do righteousness and be made righteous as He.

1 John{3:7} Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous

1 John{2:29} If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

2Co 5:21For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Those doing His righteousness are made the righteousness of God. Those doing the devil's unrighteousness are made the sinners of the world.

Following a bad example does not justify anyone's own bad deeds. Following the good example makes them justified their deeds.

Scripture can be read in two opposing ways: Through the eyes of the righteous, or through the eyes of sinners.

 

[Ghada]

Newborn babes are without works. Walking people have works, and are judged thereby.

In Romans 4, as newborn babes from the womb without works, so with them born again in Christ Jesus. In James 2, as people with works are judged thereby, so with them naming Christ.

1 Peter {1:15} But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; {1:16} Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. {1:17} And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning [here] in fear:

 

[Ghada]

Since we are both using many words, with varying points, then I will break them down. If you want to continue with more specifics.

The works relationship that James speaks of is works that are conducted based upon a saving faith.

Which saves no man doing evil, or not doing the good we know to do.

Jas 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

No man has the faith of the Lord Jesus Christ while doing evil, nor when not doing the good at hand.

1 John 3:17But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

James{2:14} What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

First, he says how can anyone say they believe in God and then not do what God says.

All devils and many sinners do.

Jas 2:19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

It's good to profess faith in God, for it is better than saying there is no God. But only them doing the will of God are justified with Him.

James{2:21} Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

1Jo 2:15Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

Next, he says that he tries to live and act as if he believes in God.

Trying is better than not trying. Doing is justified.

The world is full of people trying to do good, and that is better than not. But anyone doing evil is condemned by works, whether intending good or not.

3 John{1:11} Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.

The wicked rulers that slew the Lord intended it for the good of their nation.

Jhn 11:48If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation. And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all, Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

I don't care what I think or try to do, but only what God says and what I am doing. When my soul is at stake, my good intentions are not judged, but only the works.

What we ought to say from James 2, is that there is no good reason for anyone naming Jesus Christ to do iniquity, and therefore no man is justified if doing so.

I think that is essentially James' premise concerning works. If you have faith, then you will do the works. If you don't do the works, you really cannot claim to have faith.

True. Jesus Christ's judgment in James 2, is that of having faith with works. As opposed to newborn babes without works in Rom 4.

Jas 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

James{2:21} Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?...Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

The judgment of works in James 2, is that the believer has the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ when doing good, and is justified by His faith. We have not the faith of the Lord, nor are justified with Him, if transgressing against Him.

 

[Ghada]

In reply #13 you stated that "Newborn babies are justified by faith without works". Babies don't have faith.

No Scripture says babies have faith. Only that they have no works to be judged.

Rom 9:11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil...

Newborn babes in Jesus Christ have His faith. And, even as all newborn babes, they are also without works.

Not because they are newly born from the womb, but because they are newly forgiven of all works done, and are forgotten as having never been done.

Isa 43:25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.

2Co 5:17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ,

The bad question is not do we believe in God, but rather have we sinned. It's a mute question, in that all men have sinned, save one.

And it's an accusing question to ask the righteous in Christ Jesus, when they last sinned. Since God does not remember our past sins, then why should we? And why should we care when others have last sinned?

Phl 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

They do not believe in God, in Jesus Christ or in the gospel in any sense whatsoever.

And we are judged by our works the same as any man, without respect of persons. God has no respect for our faith, if doing the same unrighteousness as the world.

Jas 4:4Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

Rom 2:3And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

 

[Arial]

The first man to obey righteousness is the righteous, that leads the way for others to do righteousness and be made righteous as He.

Leads the way? The Bible says he is the way. How does a sinner who has already sinned make himself righteous? Scripture states that Jesus' righteousness is counted to the believer as though it were his. How? Because Jesus gave himself as a ransom to pay the penalty for the believers sins by taking that penalty on his own body, and dying the death that we deserve, nailing our sins to the cross. Since he had no sin of his own, the grave could not hold him. He rose again to life and ascended back to the Father. Paid in full. No future payment due from the believer. By grace and through faith alone. There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, and nothing can separate them from his love.

 

[Arial]

Rom 4:6Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,



James{2:21} Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?...Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Jesus Christ says both. All the Lord's words must be taken together to accurately teach and do any of His words.



The same as before.



Salvation is not a result of repentance alone. But salvation certainly isn't without repentance first.

Acts 3:19Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Cor {7:10} For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of:

Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

Again, all Scripture must be taken together to know the truth of any Scripture. Forgiveness and mercy to salvation is by repentance from our bad works to forgiveness and mercy.

It is not possible to become newborn babes in Christ without works, if we still have our old bad works.

And being saved by Jesus Christ is not by repenting from bad works alone, but by doing so for Jesus' sake.

Any man can repent of doing bad for whatever earthly reason in this life, whether health, family, profession, society, etc... but only them repenting with godly sorrow for forgiveness and mercy of God's Son, can become newborn sons of God.

2Co 5:17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ,


It's in Acts 3:19, 1 Cor 7:10, Heb 4:9. There are more.

Isolating one Scripture from any other Scriptures, is taking away authority from all the other Scriptures.

Salvation in Eph 2:8 must be believed in context of all other scriptures, that speak of being justified by Christ. Including James 2:22.

Conversely, a whole series of scriptures set aside from their context cannot make one passage not true. You are just determining which scripture to not believe, rather than rightly dividing (handling) the word of God.

 

[Ghada]

He continues in verse 3, "Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?"

Perfected by the flesh pertains to outward works of the flesh, without having the Spirit by faith in Jesus Christ.

Even as trusting in our faith to save us, without doing good, so is trusting in works to save us, without the faith.

2 pet 1:4 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Peter 1:6Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

We must add works to our faith in Jesus Christ to ensure our election and not fall. We must not add works to our faith to be forgiven and born of God.

Jhn 1:12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name. Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

We do not seek to become born again and newly justified by good works. That is by the will of man to become sons of God.

Romans 4 without works is to become newborn of God. James 2 for them born and justified by the faith of Jesus Christ doing good, and not evil.

3Jo 1:11Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.

It is the false notion that so many, even today, continue to believe, namely that we are saved by faith; but we stay saved by works.

Titus 3:8This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

We do not become forgiven and justified by works.

Newborn babes are justified without works, sons are justified with good works, and no man is justified with bad works.

The old deception is that anyone is justified by Jesus Christ, while doing evil.

Gen 3:4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: {3:5} For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Ezek 18:4Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Beginning with Adam the first man made a living soul, any soul that sins against God is dead to God, without respect of persons.

That is false. We are saved by grace through faith, and we stay saved by grace through faith.

Not with evil works.

Jas 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

No man doing evil is justified by his faith, because he has not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ to justify us.

You continued in reply #3, saying, "Converted Christians are justified with works." That is wrong. We are justified by faith. By faith we do works (James and Heb 11).

And by works of faith we are justified.

Titus{3:3} For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, [and] hating one another. {3:4} But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, {3:5} Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Any works of our own righteousness do not justify us, because our faith is not in Jesus Christ to do His righteousness.

The only faith that justifies us with God, is the faith of Jesus Christ that does God's righteousness, not our own.

Jhn 8:29And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

I apreciate your reasoned arguments.

 

[prism]

That is so often misunderstood. The "many" made righteous are precisely the same "many" made sinners.

Rom 5:18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

The "all men" justified are precisely the same "all men" condemned.

There is absolutely no basis, except a pre-biased theological concept, for thinking otherwise. So how can that be? Is Paul preaching universal salvation for all? No, because the subject at hand is not about salvation from personal sin. Rather the subject at hand is how is one born into this world. We know that because that is what is demanded by the grammatical construction of the "For as by -- so by" and the "so then as -- even so" argument. What Paul is saying there that because of the obedience and the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross anything that might have accrued to the newborn because of Adam's disobedience was voided and made null and void. It says there that we are not born in Original Sin; rather, we are born in Original Grace. It is only when we sin that we become dead, spiritually, in trespasses and sins. No one is dead, spiritually, in Adam's sin. We are born righteous. Once we sin we become unrighteous and need to be reborn, regenerated.

Thank you for your opinion, I whole heartedly disagree, especially the 'We are born righteous' part.

 

[CrowCross]

Faith is needed. Faith is a work,

That's debatable. It's far from doing unto the least of these.

even though it is not a work of law.

 

[prism]

Death reigned through that man Adam when he transgressed. Likewise, death reigns through every man that transgresses the Lord.

So Christ only died for sins up to the point of receiving Him and not ALL our sins?

The judgment of Scripture to the world, is that any one transgression is death to the soul, by the lust thereof.

Jas 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

'Mirror mirror on the wall, who's the fairest of them all'? ...Jesus!

The first man to sin makes himself a sinner, and leads the way for others to sin and make themselves sinners likewise.

No man can say to God that another man makes them sin, nor that the devil made me do it. All are made sinners by their own sinning.

The first man to obey righteousness is the righteous, that leads the way for others to do righteousness and be made righteous as He.

1 John{3:7} Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous

1 John{2:29} If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

2Co 5:21For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Those doing His righteousness are made the righteousness of God. Those doing the devil's unrighteousness are made the sinners of the world.

Following a bad example does not justify anyone's own bad deeds. Following the good example makes them justified their deeds.

Scripture can be read in two opposing ways: Through the eyes of the righteous, or through the eyes of sinners.

In the famous quote of Sarah Palin, "You can put lipstick on a pig but he's still a pig".