Romans 4 vs James 2: Newborn babes vs converted Christians

[Arial]

All men are born with a sinful nature, just like Adam. Having a sinful nature is not a sin. It is how mankind was created. And all of the rest of that post derives from your not understanding that simple truth.

If God created anything with a sinful nature, he would indeed be the author of sin.

Mankind has a sinful nature because his first ancestor, Adam, did sin.

 

[Arial]

Jesus' obedience negated any effect that Adam's disobedience might have had.

We have the witness of every person ever born that that is not true.

 

[Red Baker]

All men are born with a sinful nature, just like Adam.

Except Jesus Christ, he came in the likeness of sinful flesh.

Having a sinful nature is not a sin.

Jim it does mean one comes forth speaking lies, etc., having in that flesh every sin under heaven subject to break out and show forth the wickedness in their hearts. Jim, infants are sinful, just time and opportunity is all it needs to prove that flesh is wicked, it is seen in all even from a very young age.

Question for you~Why did God command Israel at times to utterly destroy every thing, including both man and woman, infant and suckling?

1st Samuel 15:3​

“Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.”

God would have been guiltily of destroying the righteous if these infants and suckling's were not sinners in his eyes. Far be form God to do such a things, but your doctrine said that it was okay to destroy infants and suckling's. God destroyed these generation of grown vipers along with their infants vipers, who would have followed their parents, given time and opportunity.

It is how mankind was created.

Adam was not created with a sinful nature. We have already spoken about this recently.

Coming back to finish your post.

 

[JIM]

If God created anything with a sinful nature, he would indeed be the author of sin.

A sinful nature is nothing more than the free will choose to obey or disobey.

Mankind has a sinful nature because his first ancestor, Adam, did sin.

So why did Adam sin if he didn't have a sinful nature?

 

[JIM]

We have the witness of every person ever born that that is not true.

Oh really? What witness says that is not true

 

[Arial]

Oh really? What witness says that is not true

There never was a person born that is not a sinner. Except Jesus, who was not fathered by Adam.

 

[Arial]

A sinful nature is nothing more than the free will choose to obey or disobey.

The nature of a thing has nothing to do with will. Do dogs choose whether or not to have four legs and no sweat glands? Do humans choose whether or not to have two legs and walk upright?

So why did Adam sin if he didn't have a sinful nature?

Because he was created not corrupt but able to be corrupted. He was created mortal (able to die) but as long as he had access to the tree of life and ate of it, he would not die. When he ate of the forbidden tree he gained a knowledge he did not have. All the knowledge he did have was good, but after the treason he also now had knowledge of evil, and was banned from the tree of life, and will die.

 

[JIM]

Except Jesus Christ, he came in the likeness of sinful flesh.

And Jesus did also. He just was the only one who did not succumb to that sinful flesh.

Jim it does mean one comes forth speaking lies,

What does that mean? I guess your kids were well above mine. They didn't come forth speaking anything at all. In fact is was quite a few months before they even said anything that sounded like "mama". And it was quite a few months after that before they even knew what a lie was.

Jim, infants are sinful

If you believe that then you really don't know what sinful means or even what sin is.

Question for you~Why did God command Israel at times to utterly destroy every thing, including both man and woman, infant and suckling?

Rom 9:21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?

I can only speculate that God had some use in mind to do that. He certainly had a right to do that, either an honorable one or a dishonorable one.

 

[JIM]

There never was a person born that is not a sinner. Except Jesus, who was not fathered by Adam.

Please do not ever try to justify your position with an appeal to traducianism. Traducianism is a lie. No one is born a sinner.

 

[JIM]

The nature of a thing has nothing to do with will. Do dogs choose whether or not to have four legs and no sweat glands? Do humans choose whether or not to have two legs and walk upright?

Neither of those examples involve a choice. Without getting into thousands of pages or words in philosophy, the will has no meaning apart from having a choice.

Because he was created not corrupt but able to be corrupted. \

Just like us. Or rather, we just like him.

He was created mortal (able to die) but as long as he had access to the tree of life and ate of it, he would not die. When he ate of the forbidden tree he gained a knowledge he did not have. All the knowledge he did have was good, but after the treason he also now had knowledge of evil, and was banned from the tree of life, and will die.

That makes no sense. If all the knowledge he had was good, then why did he disobey God and eat the fruit of the forbidden tree? Did he not KNOW that he was supposed to obey God?

 

[Arial]

Neither of those examples involve a choice. Without getting into thousands of pages or words in philosophy, the will has no meaning apart from having a choice.

That was my point. A NATURE is not a WILL.

Just like us. Or rather, we just like him.

Then why do babies sometimes die? Humans come from the corrupted flesh of Adam.

That makes no sense. If all the knowledge he had was good, then why did he disobey God and eat the fruit of the forbidden tree? Did he not KNOW that he was supposed to obey God?

The Bible does not really tell us what was in Adam's mind when he ate the fruit his wife offered him. So I don't know why you are asking me. It tells us Eve was deceived but Adam was not.

 

[Arial]

Please do not ever try to justify your position with an appeal to traducianism. Traducianism is a lie. No one is born a sinner.

You are the one who is bringing traducianism into a place where it does not exist. And that is because of the way you have speculated about what spirit and soul are and have come up with some bizarre, speculative theory and call it fact. To posit the Christian doctrine of original sin has nothing to do with traducianism. That is only in the misunderstanding in your head.

 

[JIM]

That was my point. A NATURE is not a WILL.

I don't think you know what will even means.

Then why do babies sometimes die? Humans come from the corrupted flesh of Adam.

Physical death is not the result of sin. Physical death is integral to creation.

The Bible does not really tell us what was in Adam's mind when he ate the fruit his wife offered him. So I don't know why you are asking me. It tells us Eve was deceived but Adam was not.

If we humans sin because we are sinners and if Adam, being a human, sinned, then he must have been a sinner.

Getting back to babies, what do you think is in their minds when, as you apparently believe, they sin?

 

[JIM]

You are the one who is bringing traducianism into a place where it does not exist. And that is because of the way you have speculated about what spirit and soul are and have come up with some bizarre, speculative theory and call it fact. To posit the Christian doctrine of original sin has nothing to do with traducianism. That is only in the misunderstanding in your head.

The doctrine that the spirit of a man comes from the parents is called traducianism. It is a lie. It is wrong. Original sin has everything to do with traducianism. The spirit of a man comes from God, and it has nothing to do with the parents or anyone else or what the parents or anyone else has done or not done, including Adam.

 

[Arial]

The doctrine that the spirit of a man comes from the parents is called traducianism. It is a lie. It is wrong. Original sin has everything to do with traducianism. The spirit of a man comes from God, and it has nothing to do with the parents or anyone else or what the parents or anyone else has done or not done, including Adam.

Did I say anything about where the spirit of man comes from? Does original sin say anything about where the spirit of man comes from? You are once again taking what you believe into someone else's belief and acting like that is what is in that belief. I am amazed at how many times I have told you that, and have had to tell some others, and they do not even have any idea what I mean! They just keep on doing it. You claim to be a logical person. Think your way through that statement. Unless of course it is easier to dismiss it as silly.

The doctrine of original sin, Reformed theology, me----we all treat a human as a complete person. We do not say, as some have introduced into wayward Christianity that man has a mind and a spirit/soul and lives in a body. They say he IS body mind and spirit. He is not a triune being. You think you can define the spirit of a man, which would make you the one and only person who can.

 

[Arial]

I don't think you know what will even means.

If you still think a will and a nature are the same thing you don't know what either one of those things is and yet you continue to respond as though you know it all. That is called a know it all.

Physical death is not the result of sin. Physical death is integral to creation.

So God lied when he said the man who sins shall die? When he told Adam that If he ate of the Tree he was told not to (that would be a Sin btw) God lied, and you know more than God?

If we humans sin because we are sinners and if Adam, being a human, sinned, then he must have been a sinner.

Adam BECAME a sinner when he sinned.

Getting back to babies, what do you think is in their minds when, as you apparently believe, they sin?

A person doesn't have to know they are committing a sin against God in order for what they do to be a sin. Once again you have the whole system topsy turvy with man center stage and God in the audience.

 

[Mr GLee]

Physical death is not the result of sin. Physical death is integral to creation.

Yes, I would offer .

The life of the flesh is in the blood .That life is Christ's Spirit life. No such thing as eternal dying flesh .

Jesus the Son of man informs us that his own flesh profits for zero .

A sign against those who believe not, not a sign to the believer. Believers have prophecy they knew the promised 430 years had come .
Sign for unbelievers prophecy for those who do believe as it is written

Exodus 12:13And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.

Exodus 12:23 For the Lord will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, the Lord will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite you.

Yoked with Him our daily burdens "hell" can be lighter with a living hope beyond the grave

Men love to see the blood there outward sign .I did it it proves it

Christ said when he sees the blood (work of the Holy Spirit )

Walk by faith.

 

[JIM]

Did I say anything about where the spirit of man comes from? Does original sin say anything about where the spirit of man comes from?

Not in exact words, but Original Sin does proclaim the spirit is dead in sin at birth. A dead sin does not come from God.

The doctrine of original sin, Reformed theology, me----we all treat a human as a complete person. We do not say, as some have introduced into wayward Christianity that man has a mind and a spirit/soul and lives in a body.

Who said anything about any wayward Christianity? The make up of a man in terms of body, soul and spirit has really been discussed.

They say he IS body mind and spirit. He is not a triune being. You think you can define the spirit of a man, which would make you the one and only person who can.

You can search for yourself for a definition of the spirit of man. There is plenty out there to keep you more than a little busy. You can even come up with the biblical terminology if you wish. Or you could start a new topic and see what you get. But I know enough about it to know that it is from God, not man because the Bible tells us so. And I know that God would not give anyone a spirit already dead in sin. You can challenge that if you want. But to do so you will have to say and admit to postulate some really bad things about God.

 

[Red Baker]

All men are born with a sinful nature, just like Adam.

Yes, just like Adam's image after his fall, not before his fall into sin, and rebellion against God~which image before his disobedience was created after God's image in true holiness, with true knowledge, understanding and wisdom, which Adam lost when he sinned~which btw, the new man by God's power is recreated in, which nature/image cannot sin, and hates sin......

1 John 3:9​

“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.”

Yet, because God's elect still live in this body of sin and death, we still have sin in our flesh seeking to bring us into servitude, and under its power. This is the truth of the word of God, any other doctrine is a lie of the devil.

Having a sinful nature is not a sin.

Having such nature without having been born of God, is nothing but a flesh of pure wickedness, regardless, how one seeks to present himself otherwise~one is a fool without biblical understanding if one believes a person is a good person apart from being born of God, that person (unregenerate person) is nothing short of the devil himself, and all who have not been born of God would prove to be one of Satan's children if put into a certain circumstance that would force a person show one's true colors in order to saved himself form any hurt, loss, etc.

Jim, I know this is so, by believing the word of God, and personal experience of living in this world for going on 77 years.

And all of the rest of that post derives from your not understanding that simple truth.

I hear you ~you must say this, or else, confess that you are the one lacking true understanding, but your pride will not allow you do even consider that you are the one that may be missing simple truth. No pun intended, just stating a fact.

When we sin, we damage that spirit That damage is referred to as being dead in trespasses and sins. Once damaged by sin, it needs to be REborn, REgenerated, REpaired. That happens when we are forgiven our sins and we are given the gift, the indwelling, Holy Spirit. God then treats us as once again having that undamaged spirit and much more.

Jim, this warped understanding you have is the results of refusing to submit to the truth/testimony of the holy scriptures which testimony is God's own testimony of the truth.

Jim, it is not just one's spirit is damaged (a self promoted use of a word (s) to support a false position) by personal sin, committed after we are born into this world ~for this is true of all men even children of God who have been born of God with a new nature.
Jim, at the very second Adam sinned he died (so did Eve btw and all of their children from Adam's seed are still born spiritually speaking). So much more than his spirit was damaged ~ whatever that means, is totally unknown, since the scriptures does not use that terminology.

1st Corinthians 15:21​

“For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.”

All men from Adam onward died, for all men sinned in Adam. you do not have to accept this to be true, it is true regardless if we believe it or not!

You are so wrong in wanting to believe that we are born into this world in original grace whatever that means...... you come up with your own doctrine terminologies to go along with your false gospel of including man's work into his salvation from sin and condemnation.

Parents have nothing to do with the origin and condition of the spirit. Our spirits come from God. Flesh is simply the biblical term often meaning human being, the physical being. It is not a spiritual term, whatever that might be.

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh." Here "the flesh" is the name given to human nature as fallen ~ it must not be restricted to the body (as in a few passages it is)—but understood (as generally in the New Testament) of the entire human constitution in its fallen condition. Romans 8:4-9, etc.

How our nature is passed from father to his children we may not fully understand, (at least I do not) yet we know that it is, by understanding the scriptures, such as Genesis 5:3, and more so, even the necessity of the virgin birth of our Lord Jesus not coming through the seed of Adam, but God being his Father. The sin nature is passed from father to his children, through copulation. This cannot be denied. Thereby, that which is born of flesh IS FLESH, and must be born again by God.

 

[Mr GLee]

Not in exact words, but Original Sin does proclaim the spirit is dead in sin at birth. A dead sin does not come from God.

Who said anything about any wayward Christianity? The make up of a man in terms of body, soul and spirit has really been discussed.

You can search for yourself for a definition of the spirit of man. There is plenty out there to keep you more than a little busy. You can even come up with the biblical terminology if you wish. Or you could start a new topic and see what you get. But I know enough about it to know that it is from God, not man because the Bible tells us so. And I know that God would not give anyone a spirit already dead in sin. You can challenge that if you want. But to do so you will have to say and admit to postulate some really bad things about God.

Original sin is false doctrine. It is used to separate what some call the venial from the mortal sin . It is needed to make the wondering wondering doctrine of Limbo for the younger sinner and Purgatory for the more matured sinner. In the end doing despite to the fullness of grace the whole cost of salvation. Teaching that a Queen mother they name Mary alone received the fulness .the rest of the world a unknown remnant .

Mankind is born with a evil spirit It falls short of glory His Spirt. The father of all Spirt life .

Marvel not dying mankind under a curse must be born again.

Mark 1:25 Jesus ·commanded [reprimanded; rebuked] the evil spirit, “Be quiet! Come out of the man!”