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RC Sproul on the Doctrine of God

To my knowledge, the NASB is the only Bible version that uses the word "causes" in in Romans 8:28, and I like it.

I believe it captures God's sovereignty and providence.

The question is, was that word added or translated from the original?

Perhaps I will look into it.

Romans 8:28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose
The word, "causes", is added, (in Romans 8:28) but for the sake of the English. It is no more inaccurate than to say that God "works" all things together for good —actually, it is more accurate to the Greek, supplying a necessary word for the English speaker. The Greek word, "works together" is in the third person, literally meaning that it is the things that work together, but then it says God, which is in the Greek necessarily the subject of the phrase, and the word, "all things", is the thing affected upon by God. The Greek is understood by the listener to be saying that God causes all things to work together for good. The Greek does not imply that God is merely a spectator of something that happens all by itself.
 
RC Sproul mentions, rather interestingly,
"It’s been my practice to tell [students] that on the one hand there’s nothing particularly unique about the doctrine of God confessed in the Reformed tradition of Christian theology. Presbyterians, Reformed Baptists, the Dutch Reformed, and other Reformed Christians affirm the same attributes of God that Lutherans, Anglicans, Methodists, the Eastern Orthodox, and Roman Catholics all do. There’s nothing radically different about our doctrine of God.​
"Yet, when those same students have asked me what’s the most significant distinctive of Reformed theology, I’ve said it’s our doctrine of God. Now, that does sound completely contradictory to my first statement, but I say that the Reformed doctrine of God sets us apart from other traditions for the reason that I know of no other theology that takes seriously the doctrine of God with respect to every other doctrine. In most systematic theologies, you get an affirmation of the sovereignty of God on page one of your theology text, but then once you move on to soteriology (doctrine of salvation), eschatology (doctrine of last things), and anthropology (doctrine of humanity), and so on, the author has seemingly forgotten what he said about God’s sovereignty on page one.​
"Reformed theologians, however, self-consciously see the doctrine of God as informing the whole scope of Christian theology."​

That's rather remarkable to me, because I didn't know how to say the difference, and how since becoming 'Calvinistic' in my theology, I've considered the Doctrine of God —who/what God is— to be the most important doctrine of all, and basic to every other thing, from beginning to end. While the words may sound the same from one denomination to another, and even from some cults, if we don't get the sense of difference between us and God, in authority and power, and in purity and purpose, in knowledge and wisdom, in ownership and subservience, in aseity and creaturehood, and in every other way, we don't get the meaning of the words.

The theologies of every other denomination and point of view begin with God as omnipotent creator, but as one travels through their other -ologies, the erosion begins. But in Reformed Theology and Calvinism, the other doctrines cling desperately to the very center of all fact for their meaning. TULIP does not stand alone, but derives its basis, in its parts and in its unity, to that center. Go to any of Systematic Theologies, headings, and they begin there. Go to the smallest part of truth, it is based on who/what God is. I myself do not claim Reformed Theology nor Calvinism as my own. They only sound like what I have come to believe. But the same phenomenon applies.

If I want those who come to know the Lord to know nothing else, I want them to know the Lord who owns us, and who made us for himself. And when I die, I almost have to believe that I will be happiest when I see them seeing him as he is, (but I know better—because I too will see him as he is).
I am trying to read the book that John MacArthur says set him where he is in regards to the nature of God. It is "The Existence and Attributes of God" by Stephen Charnock, a reformer, in the 1600s. So far in the VERY little I have read, it is direct and unflinching. (It starts off dealing with atheism.) I'm not sure I will ever be able to finish the book, as it is quite long. I'm sure I can find what I am looking for somewhere in it. Apparently it deals much with the sovereignty of God. It is said to be one of the only books that deals solely with, where the main focus is, the nature of God.
 
I am trying to read the book that John MacArthur says set him where he is in regards to the nature of God. It is "The Existence and Attributes of God" by Stephen Charnock, a reformer, in the 1600s. So far in the VERY little I have read, it is direct and unflinching. (It starts off dealing with atheism.) I'm not sure I will ever be able to finish the book, as it is quite long. I'm sure I can find what I am looking for somewhere in it. Apparently it deals much with the sovereignty of God. It is said to be one of the only books that deals solely with, where the main focus is, the nature of God.
Wikipedia says the book was never finished, due to Charnock's death. I wonder how long it would have run! He apparently (teehee) lived back in the day when 10-minute sermonettes and single-paragraph posts were not the norm.
 
Wikipedia says the book was never finished, due to Charnock's death. I wonder how long it would have run! He apparently (teehee) lived back in the day when 10-minute sermonettes and single-paragraph posts were not the norm.

This would have driven them nuts.Twitter mentality drives me nuts and I am not very wordy... Lol... How can we boil this has been a particular problem, it's so much information you have to be able to place in a tiny box for anyone to understand you.
 
Wikipedia says the book was never finished, due to Charnock's death. I wonder how long it would have run! He apparently (teehee) lived back in the day when 10-minute sermonettes and single-paragraph posts were not the norm.
The two volumes in one book is over 700 pages, and the margins are almost non-existent. Making one's way through one page is a bit of a chore. I think I got through three pages in five minutes.
 
I do not myself claim Reformed theology nor Calvinism as my own; they only sound like what I have come to believe.

If Reformed theology and Calvinism sound like what you have come to believe, then how come you don't claim either?


Yeah, you are Calvinistic. Maybe not Calvinist, ...

I am curious about the distinction between Calvinist and Calvinistic. Since you suggested that someone can be more Calvinistic than Calvinists, I assume you see a meaningful difference. Could you clarify?

I would also be interested in hearing how you define Calvinistic, since you said both Arminian theology and Reformed theology fit under that label. It is a matter of historical fact that the Synod of Dort was convened specifically to consider and respond to Arminian theology, ultimately rejecting it. If Calvinism has historically stood in opposition to Arminian theology, how should your claim be understood?


For what it's worth, I know very well that my point of view and way of expression are not the Correct ones. More than that, I know well that no matter how accurate any of us are we still miss the mark. Our notions are directed AT the truth but are not THE TRUTH. And our words, even less so, unless they are the words of scripture.

My signature at another discussion board reflects this attitude: "My theology is theologia viatorum, what Michael Horton called a ‘pilgrim theology.’ My knowledge of God—as revealed by Christ through redemptive history—is limited but evolving and fallible (1 Cor 13:12)."
 
My husband used hard determinist language always, but it is harsh and they are difficult subjects. In person I can see it better because the Spirit is felt by the hearer.

My perspective is this (and I sense that you share this in common with me): It is harsh to the sinful flesh, but it is comforting to the sanctified heart.
 
[If it is better to give than to receive, then] hard determinism is true, as God always gives and never receives.

And gives to the uttermost, not holding back even his own Son.
 
My perspective is this (and I sense that you share this in common with me): It is harsh to the sinful flesh, but it is comforting to the sanctified heart.

Yes .. it is.
 
I never studied Calvin, I attended Arminian churches because my husband liked them, but he didn't discuss Bible or religion with me; after his death I attended a Christian Reformed Church for a short time. I wasn't comfortable with the number of transgenders who attended, and when I stopped attending I was without transportation. Now I face other issues. But I believe God and His word have the most influence on my life and are the reason I found salvation that can't be lost.
 
If Reformed theology and Calvinism sound like what you have come to believe, then how come you don't claim either?
For several reasons 1. I didn't come to what I believe by the teaching of Calvinism nor Reformed Theology 2. I don't want to be accused of believing what I do because of either one of them. Notice that up until I started reading Calvin with the "Through Calvin's Institutes in a Year", I have heard more quotes from anti-Calvinists than from Calvinists and from reading Calvin myself. 3. I don't really care what they teach, if it doesn't make sense to me. So far, there are only a few things that I have heard that don't add up, but don't even know if they are really Calvinism/Reformed, exactly.
4. There are several things I believe or think in terms of that are not typical of Calvinists/Reformed, as I said before:
makesends said:
a. For example, hardly any Calvinists think in terms of Sanctification also being monergistic.
b. Or, the language they employ, that God allows this and that, instead of causing it.
c. I am, according to my definitions, a hard determinist.
d. Many speak of a free will, bound only by the sinful flesh, pre-regeneration, as though our decisions, but for that, are not caused to be one way or another.

e. My Ordo Salutis is its own, some things more important than others, some things less so, compared to the typical Calvinist. For example, I didn't hear from anyone else, before I realized that Salvific Faith is generated of the Spirit of God, and not by any act of the will--so much so, that it is hard for me to consider it to be of any substance apart from His very presence. It is not far from the truth, (as I consider it, anyway, to say that it IS the Spirit of God in me, as I am now In Christ.

I am curious about the distinction between Calvinist and Calvinistic. Since you suggested that someone can be more Calvinistic than Calvinists, I assume you see a meaningful difference. Could you clarify?
Haha! not sure if you intend "someone can be more Calvinistic than Calvinists" to mean, "someone can be more Calvinistic than Calvinists are", or, "someone can be rather Calvinistic, in their view (approach, doctrine, whatever), than actually Calvinists are. Calvinists and the Reformed are known for their emphasis on the Sovereignty of God, but I see that invoking not only his ability, but the logical necessity of his absolute causation of all fact, down to the most miniscule. And there is the above quote in italics, which to me is more calvinistic than the calvinists are.

But that isn't what I was saying about @Hazelelponi, I think it was, when I said she was Calvinistic even if not Calvinist. She depends on God's decree, even takes it for granted, from what I can see. She doesn't think like an Arminian, nevermind a Pelagian. So she, to me, is Calvinistic, even if not exactly a Calvinist.
I would also be interested in hearing how you define Calvinistic, since you said both Arminian theology and Reformed theology fit under that label. It is a matter of historical fact that the Synod of Dort was convened specifically to consider and respond to Arminian theology, ultimately rejecting it. If Calvinism has historically stood in opposition to Arminian theology, how should your claim be understood?
'Calvinistic' is an adjective. I'm guessing our language difference is at play here. I'm semi-bi-lingual, grew up in South America, a missionary kid (MK). I'm what we MK's call, '3rd culture'. When I use the adjective, 'Calvinistic', as I do probably most adjectives of that sort, I mean something along the lines of, "tending (leaning, trending, resembling etc) towards Calvinism", as opposed to, "BEING a Calvinist in some way(s)"
My signature at another discussion board reflects this attitude: "My theology is theologia viatorum, what Michael Horton called a ‘pilgrim theology.’ My knowledge of God—as revealed by Christ through redemptive history—is limited but evolving and fallible (1 Cor 13:12)."
One thing I heard from a Reformed Presbyterian relative of mine, surprised me but was a very welcome thing to hear, that his church and he thought of "Semper Reformanda", not to mean that they must keep their doctrine pure, but that their doctrine comes from Scripture alone, and must constantly be re-examined, purified and improved, in understanding if not also in words.
 
[I do not claim either Reformed theology or Calvinism as my own] for several reasons. ...

1. My beliefs developed independently of both Calvinism and Reformed theology.

I know you're not allergic to "-isms" for the sake of avoiding labels, so if these categories reflect well-defined doctrinal positions that correspond to what you believe, wouldn't it make sense to identify with these categories—even if you arrived at those beliefs independently? For example, if Platonism refers to the ideas taught by Plato, then someone can affirm Platonism even without having read Plato—as is the case with many Christians who unknowingly borrow from him.

There is always room for nuance, of course, like if your beliefs differ in some significant way from those typically associated with such categories. It would make perfectly good sense for someone to say something like, "I affirm a Reformed theology, but I don't subscribe to any of the historic Reformed confessions." Claiming those labels is at least a good starting point for a discussion, is it not?

I am in a similar boat. I call myself a Calvinist insofar as my soteriology reflects the teachings of Calvin, even though (a) I had never read anything by him until just two weeks ago, and (b) I hold several beliefs that are definitely not typical of Calvinists (e.g., conditional immortality).

2. I don't want my beliefs to be regarded as derived from either one of them.

It sounds like you're distinguishing derivation from correspondence, saying there's substantial overlap between your theology and Reformed theology but it results from independent study rather than influence or allegiance.

At the same time, though, it can unintentionally come across as emphasizing theological independence, as if saying, "These are my conclusions, not something I picked up from Calvin or Sproul." I doubt that's your intent, so I mention it only because it could give the impression that secondhand inheritance is something to be avoided or looked down upon.

Alternatively, maybe it's less about independence and more about wanting to avoid the social, ecclesiastical, or theological baggage that sometimes comes with theological labels. I can understand that. Words like "Reformed" can denote confessional standards, historical alliances, and subcultural tendencies that you don't want to deal with.

3. I want freedom to distance myself from ideas that don't make sense to me.

Are you willing to give me an example of something that doesn't add up? Don't worry about whether it is Calvinist or Reformed exactly or not.

4. I have beliefs or categories that aren't typical of Calvinism or Reformed theology.

Same here. And yet I don't share your aversion to these labels, hence my struggle to perceive the connection. Like I said, there is always room for clarification or nuance. "Reformed theology" is a good starting point for discussion, but sometimes we have to supply clarifications at the point where our view departs from the crowd, like my supralapsarian Christology (which departs from the infralapsarian norm in Reformed theology).


Haha! I'm not sure if you intend that to mean "someone can be more Calvinistic than Calvinists are," or "someone can be rather Calvinistic, in their view (approach, doctrine, whatever), than actually Calvinists are."

I was responding to what you said: "I'm Calvinistic—in some ways more than Calvinists are." So, what did YOU mean? What is the distinction you're making here between Calvinist and Calvinistic?

"Calvinists and the Reformed are known for their emphasis on the sovereignty of God," you said, "[which for me is about] not only his ability but the logical necessity of his absolute causation of all fact, down to the most miniscule."

But this actually aligns with Reformed theology, not departs from it—at least as far as R. C. Sproul taught it. "If there is one maverick molecule in the universe," he said concerning the sovereignty of God, "one molecule running loose outside the scope of God's sovereign ordination, then there is not the slightest confidence you can have that any promise God has ever made about the future will come to pass." Not a single maverick molecule is, by definition, down to the most miniscule.


[I was also talking about Hazelelponi, who] depends on God's decree, even takes it for granted, from what I can see. She doesn't think like an Arminian, nevermind a Pelagian. So she, to me, is Calvinistic, even if not exactly a Calvinist.

Like I asked earlier (and this would apply to her, too), wouldn't it make sense to identify your beliefs with specific categories that reflect well-defined doctrinal positions if they largely correspond to what you believe?


"Calvinistic" is an adjective. I'm guessing our language difference is at play here.

Maybe a little? But I understand that word to be an adjective, too, so I'm not sure. The way I see it, something is Calvinistic when it smells like Calvinism—whether it derives from Calvin or just corresponds to Calvinism in some way.
 
For example, hardly any Calvinists think in terms of Sanctification also being monergistic.

Or, the language they employ, that God allows this and that, instead of causing it.

I am, according to my definitions, a hard determinist.

Many speak of a free will, bound only by the sinful flesh, pre-regeneration, as though our decisions, but for that, are not caused to be one way or another.
Very interesting to me after having spent 12 years in a non-biblical cult!
 
makesends said:
[I do not claim either Reformed theology or Calvinism as my own] for several reasons. ...
1. My beliefs developed independently of both Calvinism and Reformed theology.

I know you're not allergic to "-isms" for the sake of avoiding labels, so if these categories reflect well-defined doctrinal positions that correspond to what you believe, wouldn't it make sense to identify with these categories—even if you arrived at those beliefs independently? For example, if Platonism refers to the ideas taught by Plato, then someone can affirm Platonism even without having read Plato—as is the case with many Christians who unknowingly borrow from him.

There is always room for nuance, of course, like if your beliefs differ in some significant way from those typically associated with such categories. It would make perfectly good sense for someone to say something like, "I affirm a Reformed theology, but I don't subscribe to any of the historic Reformed confessions." Claiming those labels is at least a good starting point for a discussion, is it not?

I am in a similar boat. I call myself a Calvinist insofar as my soteriology reflects the teachings of Calvin, even though (a) I had never read anything by him until just two weeks ago, and (b) I hold several beliefs that are definitely not typical of Calvinists (e.g., conditional immortality).

2. I don't want my beliefs to be regarded as derived from either one of them.

It sounds like you're distinguishing derivation from correspondence, saying there's substantial overlap between your theology and Reformed theology but it results from independent study rather than influence or allegiance.

At the same time, though, it can unintentionally come across as emphasizing theological independence, as if saying, "These are my conclusions, not something I picked up from Calvin or Sproul." I doubt that's your intent, so I mention it only because it could give the impression that secondhand inheritance is something to be avoided or looked down upon.

Alternatively, maybe it's less about independence and more about wanting to avoid the social, ecclesiastical, or theological baggage that sometimes comes with theological labels. I can understand that. Words like "Reformed" can denote confessional standards, historical alliances, and subcultural tendencies that you don't want to deal with.

3. I want freedom to distance myself from ideas that don't make sense to me.

Are you willing to give me an example of something that doesn't add up? Don't worry about whether it is Calvinist or Reformed exactly or not.

4. I have beliefs or categories that aren't typical of Calvinism or Reformed theology.

Same here. And yet I don't share your aversion to these labels, hence my struggle to perceive the connection. Like I said, there is always room for clarification or nuance. "Reformed theology" is a good starting point for discussion, but sometimes we have to supply clarifications at the point where our view departs from the crowd, like my supralapsarian Christology (which departs from the infralapsarian norm in Reformed theology).
See below*

makesends said:
Haha! I'm not sure if you intend that to mean "someone can be more Calvinistic than Calvinists are," or "someone can be rather Calvinistic, in their view (approach, doctrine, whatever), than actually Calvinists are."
I was responding to what you said: "I'm Calvinistic—in some ways more than Calvinists are." So, what did YOU mean? What is the distinction you're making here between Calvinist and Calvinistic?

"Calvinists and the Reformed are known for their emphasis on the sovereignty of God," you said, "[which for me is about] not only his ability but the logical necessity of his absolute causation of all fact, down to the most miniscule."

But this actually aligns with Reformed theology, not departs from it—at least as far as R. C. Sproul taught it. "If there is one maverick molecule in the universe," he said concerning the sovereignty of God, "one molecule running loose outside the scope of God's sovereign ordination, then there is not the slightest confidence you can have that any promise God has ever made about the future will come to pass." Not a single maverick molecule is, by definition, down to the most miniscule.
See below*

makesends said:
[I was also talking about @Hazelelponi, who] depends on God's decree, even takes it for granted, from what I can see. She doesn't think like an Arminian, nevermind a Pelagian. So she, to me, is Calvinistic, even if not exactly a Calvinist.
Like I asked earlier (and this would apply to her, too), wouldn't it make sense to identify your beliefs with specific categories that reflect well-defined doctrinal positions if they largely correspond to what you believe?
*Maybe this would answer the above, too. I [habitually, I think] try to avoid thinking along a single-line scale, with Pelagian toward one end and Calvinist toward the other, for several reasons, to include avoiding any implication that the truth is somewhere between them. I just think that the truth is the standard, and is not on any line, nor held in any creature's mind. Everything else tries to positionally arrange itself according to that, and I don't see much value in arranging myself in relation to anything but the truth.

There is plenty of value, since standards of 'Calvinist' and 'Pelagian' are, as you said, definitive to others, to claim one as opposed to the other, but I don't see calling myself a Calvinist, when 'Calvinistic' will do.

makesends said:
"Calvinistic" is an adjective. I'm guessing our language difference is at play here.
Maybe a little? But I understand that word to be an adjective, too, so I'm not sure. The way I see it, something is Calvinistic when it smells like Calvinism—whether it derives from Calvin or just corresponds to Calvinism in some way.
Agreed. I guess the difference is in habitual use of "adjectives that end in '-istic'". To me it isn't Calvinism, but like it, or toward that end of a spectrum.
 
[I was also talking about @Hazelelponi, who] depends on God's decree, even takes it for granted, from what I can see. She doesn't think like an Arminian, nevermind a Pelagian. So she, to me, is Calvinistic, even if not exactly a Calvinist

I would agree with being called Calvinistic, and you said it how I understood it to mean. Calvinist really does seem more like Dutch Calvinist or something that I would think more definitely associates with Calvin instead of just some doctrines in common.

I don't know really though. My husband seemed happy he could call me a Calvinist one day he found me listening to Spurgeon... he's all yep, your a Calvinist... Lol.
 
*Maybe this would answer the above, too. I [habitually, I think] try to avoid thinking along a single-line scale, with Pelagian toward one end and Calvinist toward the other, for several reasons, to include avoiding any implication that the truth is somewhere between them. I just think that the truth is the standard, and is not on any line, nor held in any creature's mind. Everything else tries to positionally arrange itself according to that, and I don't see much value in arranging myself in relation to anything but the truth.

There is plenty of value, since standards of 'Calvinist' and 'Pelagian' are, as you said, definitive to others, to claim one as opposed to the other, but I don't see calling myself a Calvinist, when 'Calvinistic' will do.
Part of the problem is that according to your view of Calvinistic ( or anyone's view of it) I suspect all of these who identify as or are identified as, Calvinst (or Reformed, or Arminianist or Pelagian, semi-Pelagian etc.) would be Calvinistic in that it would probably be difficult to find any two people who believe everything Calvin wrote or everything in Calvinism in exactly the same way as it was written historically.

Another problem is that the terms have been reduced to only certain points and not the whole. Calvinism and Reformed to the TULIP, Arminianism to man freely choosing Jesus as opposed to God choosing people to give to Jesus. And even those who deny the TULIP but accept the rest of the traditional Christian doctrines, are still Calvinistic, because they accept the other necessary doctrines of Christianity, which Reformed/Calvin also does.

Another issue I have is that it is even called Calvinism and that it ever was. He did a lot of the work of the Syndod of Dort but he was not alone in doing it. Reformed theology and Calvinism differ at the point of baptism and the sacraments, and sometimes in interpretive framework. Baptist can either present as Reformed, in which case it has a covenant framework. Or I guess just plain Calvinist with the interpretive framework as dispensations. (Which would not be in agreement with Calvin at all at that juncture.)

That is what gives people room to deny being what they are in practice, and especially to be able to say "I am not a Calvinist!" Or to believe that man chooses Christ and at the same time say they are not an Arminianist, that salvation is all of the sovereign God, but they are not a Calvinist.
 
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The word, "causes", is added, (in Romans 8:28) but for the sake of the English. It is no more inaccurate than to say that God "works" all things together for good —actually, it is more accurate to the Greek, supplying a necessary word for the English speaker. The Greek word, "works together" is in the third person, literally meaning that it is the things that work together, but then it says God, which is in the Greek necessarily the subject of the phrase, and the word, "all things", is the thing affected upon by God. The Greek is understood by the listener to be saying that God causes all things to work together for good. The Greek does not imply that God is merely a spectator of something that happens all by itself.
I'm looking at this again. People should agree. I can't fathom an omniscient, omnipotent God waiting for humans to decide what to do!
 
I'm looking at this again. People should agree. I can't fathom an omniscient, omnipotent God waiting for humans to decide what to do!
Why woundn’t he?

Does a loving father wait on his child to do. Or does he do everything for the child. And if he does everything, how is the child going to learn?

I am glad my parent let me crash and burn a few times.. It helped me as I grew up. I can say the same for God. That God allowed me to screw up. Then taught me through it. And helped me learn to trust him more. Because everytime I went my own way, It never worked.
 
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I'm looking at this again. People should agree. I can't fathom an omniscient, omnipotent God waiting for humans to decide what to do!

Why woundn’t he?

Does a loving father wait on his child to do. Or does he do everything for the child. And if he does everything, how is the child going to learn?

I am glad my parent let me crash and burn a few times.. It helped me as I grew up. I can say the same for God. That God allowed me to screw up. Then taught me through it. And helped me learn to trust him more. Because everytime I went my own way, It never worked.
Your crash and burns (life's path) were decreed by God before you were even born. They were ordained.

Psalms 139:16 Your eyes have seen my unshaped substance; And in Your book all of them were written The days that were formed for me, When as yet there was not one of them.
 
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