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RC Sproul on the Doctrine of God

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Your crash and burns (life's path) were decreed by God before you were even born. They were ordained.
Its nice you believe this

I do not..
Psalms 139:16 Your eyes have seen my unshaped substance; And in Your book all of them were written The days that were formed for me, When as yet there was not one of them.
It does not mean God did not allow me to do what I wanted.

God is not evil Nor is he the cause of evil
 
Its nice you believe this

I do not..

It does not mean God did not allow me to do what I wanted.

God is not evil Nor is he the cause of evil
Nowhere did I mention He was evil in my reply.

What about the Bible verses that says He does, what do you do with such Scriptures?

How do interpret this verse?

Proverbs 16:9 The heart of man plans his way, But Yahweh directs his steps.
 
Nowhere did I mention He was evil in my reply.
It is prety much insinuated in what you said,when yu say God plans everything I did. Or as some say Causes it. Thats how it comes across..

Whether you said it or not is not the issue, it is how it comes across
What about the Bible verses that says He does, what do you do with such Scriptures?
I take each verse in context. Does he use man to punish others? yes.. but he did not cause it, He did not stop them

Imagine this world if God did not hold back or restrain evil.. We think it is bad now. It is nothing

We will get a taste of this in the tribulation period to come


How do interpret this verse?

Proverbs 16:9 The heart of man plans his way, But Yahweh directs his steps.
So God directs us down an evil path and cause us to do evil things

Again, how elses should I interpret what you are saving?
 
It is prety much insinuated in what you said,when yu say God plans everything I did. Or as some say Causes it. Thats how it comes across..

Whether you said it or not is not the issue, it is how it comes across

I take each verse in context. Does he use man to punish others? yes.. but he did not cause it, He did not stop them

Imagine this world if God did not hold back or restrain evil.. We think it is bad now. It is nothing

We will get a taste of this in the tribulation period to come



So God directs us down an evil path and cause us to do evil things

Again, how elses should I interpret what you are saving?
The Lord is not evil, but He means evil for good.

Was the crucifixion of Christ evil and sinful?

Acts 2:23 this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of lawless men and put Him to death.

When I am tempted and sin, I sure do not sit back and say way are you making me do this Lord.

I take on my responsibility.

I just wonder what you do with the verses I am posting, how do you understand them?
 
The Lord is not evil, but He means evil for good.
Sorry, But there was no good in Adam causing the fall of mankind

There was no good in the holocost.

While yes, there are times, where he does this, like using the gentile nations to punish Israel, . To use this as a general rule is just wrong.
Was the crucifixion of Christ evil and sinful?
God did not cause it, he allowed it. Jesus could have jumped off the cross. God could have sent his angels. He could have caused the jews to recieve him. And the romans to reject to kill him.

Acts 2:23 this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of lawless men and put Him to death.

When I am tempted and sin, I sure do not sit back and say way are you making me do this Lord.

I take on my responsibility.
It is your responsibility, You chose to d it. God did not cause you to do it. If he did, He is just as accountable
I just wonder what you do with the verses I am posting, how do you understand them?
I have explained this a few times. On a case by case basis.
 
Sorry, But there was no good in Adam causing the fall of mankind

There was no good in the holocost.

While yes, there are times, where he does this, like using the gentile nations to punish Israel, . To use this as a general rule is just wrong.

God did not cause it, he allowed it. Jesus could have jumped off the cross. God could have sent his angels. He could have caused the jews to recieve him. And the romans to reject to kill him.


It is your responsibility, You chose to d it. God did not cause you to do it. If he did, He is just as accountable

I have explained this a few times. On a case by case basis.

God did not cause it, he allowed it. Jesus could have jumped off the cross. God could have sent his angels. He could have caused the jews to recieve him. And the romans to reject to kill him.

The crucifixion was God's will, do you not agree?
 
The crucifixion was God's will, do you not agree?
i see You want to focus on specific events which I agreed God did have a part in,

And then try to paint a picture it applies to every act every person does. Which we do not agree

If I agree that some things God did, why do you keep asking about certain things?

I am trying to show you how it looks to the outside person.
 
i see You want to focus on specific events which I agreed God did have a part in,

And then try to paint a picture it applies to every act every person does. Which we do not agree

If I agree that some things God did, why do you keep asking about certain things?

I am trying to show you how it looks to the outside person.
This is foreign to what I see in Scripture.

This means that God is sometimes active in life and He is limited to the human will.

If I agree that some things God did, why do you keep asking about certain things?

Because I wanted to know your understanding on the verses that I posted.

I am trying to show you how it looks to the outside person.
I am not a man pleaser and not concerned what man thinks.

My concern is God's truth.

Those I have discussed these things with tend to get angry at God's sovereignty of humans and sin.

Its a pride thing for them, they just want a God who is all lovey dovey, but not in control.

Anyhow thanks for your replies.
 
Part of the problem is that according to your view of Calvinistic ( or anyone's view of it) I suspect all of these who identify as or are identified as, Calvinst (or Reformed, or Arminianist or Pelagian, semi-Pelagian etc.) would be Calvinistic in that it would probably be difficult to find any two people who believe everything Calvin wrote or everything in Calvinism in exactly the same way as it was written historically.

Another problem is that the terms have been reduced to only certain points and not the whole. Calvinism and Reformed to the TULIP, Arminianism to man freely choosing Jesus as opposed to God choosing people to give to Jesus. And even those who deny the TULIP but accept the rest of the traditional Christian doctrines, are still Calvinistic, because they accept the other necessary doctrines of Christianity, which Reformed/Calvin also does.

Another issue I have is that it is even called Calvinism and that it ever was. He did a lot of the work of the Syndod of Dort but he was not alone in doing it. Reformed theology and Calvinism differ at the point of baptism and the sacraments, and sometimes in interpretive framework. Baptist can either present as Reformed, in which case it has a covenant framework. Or I guess just plain Calvinist with the interpretive framework as dispensations. (Which would not be in agreement with Calvin at all at that juncture.)

That is what gives people room to deny being what they are in practice, and especially to be able to say "I am not a Calvinist!" Or to believe that man chooses Christ and at the same time say they are not an Arminianist, that salvation is all of the sovereign God, but they are not a Calvinist.
I'll try to remember to read this again some time, but I'm way behind on reading posts, and have pretty much neglected @Carbon 's thread on the Institutes. Need to catch up. For now, I'll just say that I don't have particular respect for anyone on earth, unless the Apostles, in the same sense of veneration the RC's think they owe Mary and the Saints and the Magisterium, or that JW's and other cults give their 'prophets' and governing bodies. Calvin is, (orry), nobody, in that sense. Calvinism likewise. I don't hold to it, but to Scripture.
 
Why woundn’t he?

Does a loving father wait on his child to do. Or does he do everything for the child. And if he does everything, how is the child going to learn?

I am glad my parent let me crash and burn a few times.. It helped me as I grew up. I can say the same for God. That God allowed me to screw up. Then taught me through it. And helped me learn to trust him more. Because everytime I went my own way, It never worked.
I don't think that's what @Rescued One was talking about. He can't fathom a God who waits to see what his creatures will do, before making up his own mind what he will do. (Nor can I).
 
[Perhaps habitually, and for several reasons], I try to avoid thinking along a single-line scale, with Pelagian toward one end and Calvinist toward the other. [One is my desire to avoid] any implication that the truth is somewhere between them. I just think that the truth is the standard, and [it] is not on any line nor held in any creature's mind. Everything else tries to arrange itself positionally according to that, and I don't see much value in arranging myself in relation to anything but the truth.

If we accept your premise that the truth is not on any line—which I believe, too, by the way—then what could explain your reluctance to identify your view with either Calvinism or Reformed theology (hereinafter "Calvinism")? After all, I share your perspective on truth, and yet I don't see any difficulty in using such labels, provided they are qualified as needed—for Calvinism is a locus, not a line. And the question regarded Calvinism, not a spectrum between Pelagianism and Calvinism, so I don't see how avoiding such a label is supposed to guard against the implication that the truth lies "somewhere between" Pelagianism and Calvinism, especially since (a) the truth isn't located on a line anyway, and (b) nothing in the original question suggested a spectrum in the first place.

I think we also need to distinguish between rejecting relativistic scaling (and the notion that truth is assumed to be "in the middle") and rejecting all conceptual frameworks that involve positioning doctrines in relation to each other. I stand with you regarding the former, but I take strong exception to the latter. One should not throw out the baby (the utility of theological categories) with the bathwater (some artificial third way in a false dichotomy).

So, even though I genuinely wish to understand, I still find myself wondering what explains your reluctance.

That being said, the spectrum from Pelagianism to Calvinism exists because these loci map real, substantive differences in how we understand sin, grace, agency, salvation, and so on. It is not something arbitrarily made it up. It is an integral framework born out of substantive debates in church history, forged in the fires of councils and cast into confessional standards. These are not merely "points on a line," they are comprehensive systems of thought with distinct presuppositions about human nature and divine action. It may sound humble or truth-centered to say, "I don't place myself on that scale," but any set of substantive beliefs will inevitably align more closely with one doctrinal locus than another. There is no escaping the fact that doctrine has structure and implications. Either grace is monergistic or it is not. Either the will is enslaved by sin or it is not. Either election is unconditional or it is not. Whether you wear a label or not, you're standing somewhere.

As for your claim that the truth "[is not] held in any creature's mind," has the Lord not spoken? Has he not revealed truth to creatures? Is the Holy Spirit not the Spirit of truth, guiding us into all truth? Then yes, the truth is held in creaturely minds—not exhaustively, but truly. God has revealed truth in his word, and he has gifted the church with teachers who labor to understand and confess it.

The labels Calvinism or Reformed theology are not meant to be the final word. They are shorthand for a confessional tradition that is seeking to align closely with God's revealed word. To reject those terms without a clear articulation of what you do believe tends to result in theological ambiguity, not fidelity to truth. Don't fall into the trap of thinking that escaping theological categories is the same as being faithful to the truth. God gave his church teachers, creeds, and confessions for a reason. We use these tools not to replace scripture but to guard and articulate what scripture teaches. The labels matter because the truth matters. That is why the Reformers risked their lives to confess them.

Therefore, rather than eschewing loci within a spectrum, I would encourage you to clarify your position relative to what the church has historically confessed. We all arrange ourselves in relation to something, whether that is scripture, tradition, reason, and, yes, the categories others have developed in pursuit of doctrinal clarity (e.g., trinitarian). The key is to ensure that such categories remain subordinate to the word of God, not abandoned altogether in the name of independent thinking.
 
Sorry, But there was no good in Adam causing the fall of mankind

Actually there was, and God decreed it to occur.

We know God in such a different way.

One of the problems we face in our society is getting people who were born and raised in the west - especially those with more affluent upbringings - to understand the reality of evil men in the world.

They have been so wrapped in God's provisions that trying to convince them they are playing with a fire they don't actually want to play with is worse than pulling teeth.

They don't understand real danger and can't see it when it's standing right in front of them.

When you don't understand danger you also have no respect or proper appreciation for the ease and safety you spent your life wrapped in and end up throwing that ease and safety away like so much toilet paper, instead of treating it like an inheritance God gave you that should be preserved - not sold like the prodigal son did.

Considering this, we should understand that the presence of evil helps us more fully recognize God's goodness, His provision, His Glory, and His mercy.

You can know what is good all day long, but you don't appreciate it without knowing it's opposite... The knowledge of good, real knowledge, includes knowing what is not good too.

There is a knowing we have of and about God through this experience of life in a fallen world that not even the angels will ever know, who never knew pain or suffering themselves.

This doesn't make God evil to decree it good for a creature to know Him in this way, nor does it make God the author of sin.

Everything I ever suffered and every struggle I ever had was worth it the day I was saved - and I hadn't even gotten to heaven yet.
 
I'm looking at this again. People should agree. I can't fathom an omniscient, omnipotent God waiting for humans to decide what to do!
Do you see what I said as implying that he waits? I agree with you completely--an omnisicent, omnipotent, God needn't wait for humans to decide anything, in order for him to decide something. After all, it does also say that it is God who works in us both to will and to do according to his purposes.
 
I



Your crash and burns (life's path) were decreed by God before you were even born. They were ordained.

Psalms 139:16 Your eyes have seen my unshaped substance; And in Your book all of them were written The days that were formed for me, When as yet there was not one of them.
PSALM 139:16 is very interesting. I don't think I ever noticed it before.
 
If we accept your premise that the truth is not on any line—which I believe, too, by the way—then what could explain your reluctance to identify your view with either Calvinism or Reformed theology (hereinafter "Calvinism")? After all, I share your perspective on truth, and yet I don't see any difficulty in using such labels, provided they are qualified as needed—for Calvinism is a locus, not a line. And the question regarded Calvinism, not a spectrum between Pelagianism and Calvinism, so I don't see how avoiding such a label is supposed to guard against the implication that the truth lies "somewhere between" Pelagianism and Calvinism, especially since (a) the truth isn't located on a line anyway, and (b) nothing in the original question suggested a spectrum in the first place.

I think we also need to distinguish between rejecting relativistic scaling (and the notion that truth is assumed to be "in the middle") and rejecting all conceptual frameworks that involve positioning doctrines in relation to each other. I stand with you regarding the former, but I take strong exception to the latter.
Maybe I said something that sounds like I "reject... all conceptual frameworks that involve positioning doctrines in relation to each other." That is not my position. They rather obviously have substantive differences, that are just as obviously at different relationships to the truth.
One should not throw out the baby (the utility of theological categories) with the bathwater (some artificial third way in a false dichotomy).

So, even though I genuinely wish to understand, I still find myself wondering what explains your reluctance.

That being said, the spectrum from Pelagianism to Calvinism exists because these loci map real, substantive differences in how we understand sin, grace, agency, salvation, and so on. It is not something arbitrarily made it up. It is an integral framework born out of substantive debates in church history, forged in the fires of councils and cast into confessional standards. These are not merely "points on a line," they are comprehensive systems of thought with distinct presuppositions about human nature and divine action. It may sound humble or truth-centered to say, "I don't place myself on that scale," but any set of substantive beliefs will inevitably align more closely with one doctrinal locus than another. There is no escaping the fact that doctrine has structure and implications. Either grace is monergistic or it is not. Either the will is enslaved by sin or it is not. Either election is unconditional or it is not. Whether you wear a label or not, you're standing somewhere.
Of course. I say no different. I even said that Calvinism is a benchmark of sorts, (as is Pelagianism), and I far more resemble one than the other. I don't see how that means I should call myself a Calvinist. Over on another site, I describe myself, Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist.
As for your claim that the truth "[is not] held in any creature's mind," has the Lord not spoken? Has he not revealed truth to creatures? Is the Holy Spirit not the Spirit of truth, guiding us into all truth? Then yes, the truth is held in creaturely minds—not exhaustively, but truly. God has revealed truth in his word, and he has gifted the church with teachers who labor to understand and confess it.

The labels Calvinism or Reformed theology are not meant to be the final word. They are shorthand for a confessional tradition that is seeking to align closely with God's revealed word. To reject those terms without a clear articulation of what you do believe tends to result in theological ambiguity, not fidelity to truth. Don't fall into the trap of thinking that escaping theological categories is the same as being faithful to the truth. God gave his church teachers, creeds, and confessions for a reason. We use these tools not to replace scripture but to guard and articulate what scripture teaches. The labels matter because the truth matters. That is why the Reformers risked their lives to confess them.

Therefore, rather than eschewing loci within a spectrum, I would encourage you to clarify your position relative to what the church has historically confessed. We all arrange ourselves in relation to something, whether that is scripture, tradition, reason, and, yes, the categories others have developed in pursuit of doctrinal clarity (e.g., trinitarian). The key is to ensure that such categories remain subordinate to the word of God, not abandoned altogether in the name of independent thinking.
Agreed all, unless you think to imply that I should necessarily categorize myself as Calvinist or Reformed, simply because I have so much in common with them and even pass them by on some particulars.

Consider, for example, @Josheb and my attempt to resolve what he called self-contradiction on my part. Our dialog has, once again, reverted to the question of just what does the "freedom" the earlier Reformers intended concerning the will mean? I honestly don't know what THEY intended by it. And strangely, though he seems so well versed on Calvinism and Reformed theology that I don't claim to know anything about it better than he does, I do have a serious disagreement about the logic of his position as stated at my last interaction with him--well, my words, here-- that the will of man is able to shed all influences/causes except God himself, and, for the unregenerate, the position of slavery to sin/the flesh. To me, there is no need to go there. But if that is Calvinism or the Reformed position, then I'm glad I have not been calling myself a Calvinist nor Reformed, because that makes no sense to me.
 
It is prety much insinuated in what you said,when yu say God plans everything I did. Or as some say Causes it. Thats how it comes across..

Whether you said it or not is not the issue, it is how it comes across

I take each verse in context. Does he use man to punish others? yes.. but he did not cause it, He did not stop them

Imagine this world if God did not hold back or restrain evil.. We think it is bad now. It is nothing

We will get a taste of this in the tribulation period to come



So God directs us down an evil path and cause us to do evil things

Again, how elses should I interpret what you are saving?
GOD causes us to learn. Didn't He cause Jonah to learn?

Proverbs 16
4The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
 
....

I am not a man pleaser and not concerned what man thinks.

My concern is God's truth.

Those I have discussed these things with tend to get angry at God's sovereignty of humans and sin.

Its a pride thing for them, they just want a God who is all lovey dovey, but not in control.
I'm paying attention. Now I must study double predestination. But it's going to take a while.

JAMES 1:18
He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.
 
Do you see what I said as implying that he waits? I agree with you completely--an omnisicent, omnipotent, God needn't wait for humans to decide anything, in order for him to decide something. After all, it does also say that it is God who works in us both to will and to do according to his purposes.
If He elected some, He chose to not elect others. He's stronger than Satan. I want to know His reason.
 
If [God] elected some, he chose to not elect others. ... I want to know his reason.

The reason for God choosing this person but not that person is internal to him, for election is unconditional, which means the reason for his choice is not found in any person. It is found in God alone and the purpose of his will (Deut. 29:29).
 
This is foreign to what I see in Scripture.
Thats ok
This means that God is sometimes active in life and He is limited to the human will.
This is nonsensical.

I will be honest. It sounds like people are trying to keep their belief system in tact. So they have to make something up to make them feel better (I know this is most likely not what your doing, but thats the way it comes across every time I hear this said, and I have heard many times over many years.)

God is not limited by Human will. He is glorified in human will. We need to stop looking at God like we look at men. Men are not omniscient, Not even angels are omniscient. God works through human will. Jonah is a prime example. If Jonah had continued his unbelief and resistance. We never would have heard his name and God would have gotten someone else. Same with Abraham, Same with all the great leaders.

Israel is another example. God wanted to gather them together. But they were unwilling. Is God mocked Because Israel chose no? Of course not. He will be glorified. (Paul attempted to make this case in romans 9 - 11)
Because I wanted to know your understanding on the verses that I posted.

I am not a man pleaser and not concerned what man thinks.
I am not a man pleaser either.

But when men ask why people believe the way they do. Then we must give an answer.

When people walk into a christian discussion or chatroom and see people going at each other. And they wonder why christians act the way they do. It gives God a bad name.


My concern is God's truth.
Mine is also.
Those I have discussed these things with tend to get angry at God's sovereignty of humans and sin.
I am not angry at God. I am saddened that people Make God out to be something he is not. But I am not angry. God does not need me to defend him. He is purely able to do that himself.
Its a pride thing for them, they just want a God who is all lovey dovey, but not in control.
Could it be a pride thing for you that you can not see what others see. And ask yourself why?

When people start using these terms in a discussion, A red flag immediately goes up.
Anyhow thanks for your replies.
Anytime thanks your your time
 
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