Question on books of the bible dating

[TMSO]

When John quoted Zechariah on that it was about the Gospel not about Israel’s future.

No. John mentioned one part, and that was to show that Jesus is the oOne at the end of the age.

Zechariah is very much about Israel's future. It tells us that 2/3 will die, and 1/3 are the elect of Israel WHO WILL BE SAVED.
"And I will turn My hand [d]against the little ones.
8 “It will come about in all the land,”
Declares the Lord,
“That two parts in it will be cut off and perish;
But the third will be left in it.
9 “And I will bring the third part through the fire,
Refine them as silver is refined,
And test them as gold is tested.
They will call on My name,
And I will answer them;
I will say, ‘They are My people,’
And they will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’”
Consider more of Zechariah.

"Behold, a day is coming for the Lord when the spoil taken from you will be divided among you. 2 For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered, the women ravished and half of the city exiled, but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city. 3 Then the Lord will go forth and fight against those nations, as [a]when He fights on a day of battle. 4 In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south. 5 You will flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains will reach to Azel; yes, you will flee just as you fled before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the Lord, my God, will come, and all the holy ones with [b]Him!
_____
Rev 19 "11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. 15 From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will [d]rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the [e]wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. 16 And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

He comes down with all the holy ones and defeats the beast and his armies, throwing them in the lake of fire.
____
Zechariah again
6 In that day there will be no light; the [c]luminaries will dwindle. 7 For it will be a unique day which is known to the Lord, neither day nor night, but it will come about that at evening time there will be light.
_________
Matthew 24 "29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from [r]the sky, and the powers of [s]the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His [t]elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
________________________
8 And in that day living waters will flow out of Jerusalem, half of them toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea; it will be in summer as well as in winter."

That sounds like Old Testament Millennial Kingdom talk.

 

[TMSO]

It is true, God has never broken the promise of the Gospel. Judaism replaced it, says Gal 3:16.

"10 For as many as are of the works of [o]the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.” 11 Now that no one is justified [p]by [q]the Law before God is evident; for, “[r]The righteous man shall live by faith.” 12 [s]However, the Law is not [t]of faith; on the contrary, “He who practices them shall live [u]by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a [v]tree”— 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might [w]come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."

"15 Brethren, I speak [x]in terms of human relations: even though it is only a man’s [y]covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds [z]conditions to it. 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as referring to many, but rather to one, “And to your seed,” that is, Christ. 17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. 18 For if the inheritance is [aa]based on law, it is no longer [ab]based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise."

Please say where anything is replaced.

The text is saying the strengthening or confirming work of the covenant took 7 weeks. That's different from an imagined 7 week antichrist covenant. The pronoun that strengthens it is Messiah.

It doesn't say that at all. Stop adding to the Book.

"26 Then after the sixty-two weeks the [aa]Messiah will be cut off and have [ab]nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And [ac]its end will come with a flood; even to the end [ad]there will be war; desolations are determined. 27 And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of [ae]abominations will come one who [af]makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who [ag]makes desolate.”"

The Messiah is cut off. What is the next pronoun or noun mentioned "the people". That means that the passage is no longer talking about the Messiah. There is something about these people. They serve the one who is to come, and they destroy the city and the sanctuary. So who is the he in the next verse. Considering that the pervious mentioned subject is the people "of the prince who is to come", the "he" must be "the prince who is to come". Why? Because he is connected to the people who come and destroy the sanctuary, and it doesn't say that they make the covenant, but that HE does. The one they serve. You completley jumped the shark and ignored the fact that there is another sentence. It goes from the people who destroy the city and the sanctuary, to speaking of the end of the city and sanctuary, and (yes, another and statement) he (the prince who is to come) will make a covenant, and the VIOLATE it after 3 1/2 years, since it clearly states it is supposed to stand for 7 years, and at the end he will be destroyed. For the HE at the beginning is the HE who comes on the wing of abominations, and has complete destruction poured out on him. I have a feeling this doesn't describe Jesus.

God does not rescind his calling of the Gospel, but the race-nation is another question. The part of the race-nation that did not believe, says Acts 3, would be humiliatingly disinherited; hard to top that, as expressions go. This happened in the destruction.

So God does invaliadate a covenant previously ratified, according to you here. Even though Galatians says that this doesn't happen because it isn't based on the law or covenant, but based on a promise. So, in your telling, Jesus violates a covenant, and God breaks a promise.

 

[TMSO]

Best if you asked questions about the role of Eliot, because there's a lot you don't understand. There is nothing about 1948 that matches the OT vision--if it was to be taken in an ordinary sense.

The gathering of the Jews back to their homeland following the diaspora. Everyone was set against it, and no one believed it would happen. Britian and the Arabs were actually plotting against it. (If you read the historical records.) Everyone was dead set against it. And then... it happened. And then a huge war with odds greater then 100 to 1 and the Arab nations were completely humiliated. There is no way Israel should have won. It's as if God was giving His stamp of approval. (On the event, not the people.)

 

[TMSO]

He meant very clear Judaic events in the 1st century, and the language shows that. Lots of evidence shows that he meant that generation and that land.

There is no need to take the time pasting verses when they don't inherently mean what you think they mean. I have a master's and 3 decades on this since, but only 1 book.

So here is your homework. Prove that what happened in the first century was the worst event to fall upon the Jews in the history of the whole world. The Old Testament and Jesus Himself said that it would be the worst event in history for the Jews, with nothing worse prior to the nation being born, or after. (Old Testament clearly states that it is the worst to befall them since the nation/people came into being.) In other places it speaks of after, and Jesus speaks of after. I do love your appeal to self instead of scripture though. Also, show how the population of the world declined to almost zero in the first century. (The WHOLE WORLD, not just Israel.) If you can't do that, then Jesus was speaking of an event that had not occurred yet, because the HOLOCAUST was a lot worse then the first century.

 

[TMSO]

There is no everlasting righteousness possible in any human; only in Christ. All 6 of those phrases are true in Christ, and Hebrews uses most of them.

You need to read the passage again. "24 “Seventy [t]weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to [u]finish the transgression, to [v]make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and [w]prophecy and to anoint the most holy place."

Lets' break it down:
"SEventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city". Seventy weeks. Using prophetic principles used before, this speaks of 70 sets of 7 years.
"decreed". Determined, decreed. That means it is in stone and will not change, especially since God said it. And there are witnesses because God told Gabriel who told Daniel.
"for your people" For the Jews. Not the Gentiles, not for the Philistines, Canaanites, Babylonians, Assyrians, Medo-Persians, etc. For the Jews alone.
"your holy city" Jerusalem.

So what is decreed for Daniel's people and the holy city? Seventy weeks "to [u]finish the transgression, to [v]make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and [w]prophecy and to anoint the most holy place."" All of this for the Jews and Jerusalem. And there it is right there. "to bring in everlasting righteousness" Now you say all this happens in Christ. So that means Christ can no longer have/give visions or prophesy, right? I mean, even Zechariah shows that this is prophesied for Israel, as well as the bringing in of everlasting righteousness. Pesky Zechariah again. Why? This speaks to the end of the age, the finishing of transgression and end of sin, and atonement for iniquity.

The problem with your addressing two parts is that Eph 2-3 says they are now entirely unified in Christ (not some future time) and it uses the technical terms of Israel for it: co-inheritors, co-members, fellow-partakers in the commonwealth, etc. You have seriously missed some of the plainest language there.

You seem to have mistaken the church for Israel. They are indeed separate. There is the church, made up of Gentiles and believing Jews, and there is Israel, which is made up of unbelieving Jews, and elect Jews not yet brought in. They are not part of the church. God has yet to deal with them, as Zechariah says. He has yet to purify them as gold and make them pure. That won't happen until 2/3rds of the Jewish population die off, and the 1/3rd are saved. (Zechariah again.)

The generation that saw all those 1st century things happen expected him , as known from dozens of NT references, but God delayed. To delay is not confusion, but compassion for the last.

God did not delay. God is not a man that He delays. Jesus never said that not even the Father knows the time of His coming. God knows. God has always known. There is no delay. There is a lot God has to play out for the Gentiles, before going back to Israel and closing out the story. Going back to gather His elect out of the nation of Israel.

 

[TMSO]

It is nice that you don't think there is 2 programs, but you do. You are making 2 ways/peoples/nations/redemptions all down the line, entirely foreign to the NT.

No. There is but one way of redemption. Even Abraham who died before Jesus was even born was saved by Jesus death on the cross. It wasn't a static event in history. The effect of Jesus death on the cross is in ETERNITY. It reaches all the way back to when God foreordained us to the adoption of children through Christ, before the foundation of the world. It is how God could choose in the first place. Without Christ, there is no adoption.

The Jews rejected Jesus as their Messiah, and rejected His message. Their rejection is shown in their crucifying of Him. That put the focus of salvation (one program) off of the Jews and onto the Gentiles, which Paul calls the time of the Gentiles. Once "the fulness of the Gentiles has come in", the program (still one program of salvation) focuses back in on Israel, where there is still an elect remnant awaiting salvation.

How do they get saved? Through and by the Father and the Son. Zechariah says that the Father opens the eyes of those who remain, and they recognize who Jesus is. And they repent. They mourn. They weep. They BELIEVE, which is a requirement of salvation that has never changed. They are broken to the point that they can only mourn over who they were, and who Jesus is. This is like Saul on the road to Damascus scaled up to national size. Jesus personally shows up and saves His people, as He saved Saul/Paul. There is only one program, the plan of redemption. It has more than one part.

The program is simply... salvation/redemption. There are various peoples involved, and there always has been. There are various nations involved, and there always has been. There is only one redemption, and that won't change no matter how badly you want it to. I'm sorry, there is but one redemption in Christ. Scripture is clear. Even Jesus showed the differentiation when He says that He was sent by the Father for the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Did He says that there are Gentiles in that fold? No, He speaks of a flock that is from another fold. Paul makes that differentiation in Romans when he speaks of the Jews as the natural branches to the tree, and the Gentiles as foreign. The Gentiles never become natural branches. The Jews never cease being natural branches,even after being cut off. Paul uses that to teach the Gentiles humility. Don't think that you, a foreign branch grafted into the tree can't be torn out again. How much easier is it to take the natural branch and reattach it in your place?

 

[TMSO]

The time of Jacob's trouble has reference to the elect seed of Jacob, not to his natural seed! Besides, Mathew 24 is to be interpreted spiritually, not naturally! It is a time of trouble for the church of Jesus Christ, when the tares shall take over the NT churches, leaving the elect seed of Jacob being persecuted and rejected as they never have been since the beginning of time. Matthew 24 is speaking of a spiritual war, not natural.

The generation that shall not pass are children of the wicked one, they shall increase as never before, even in the temples of God! Just as the days of Noah were, (Genesis 6:5) so shall history repeat itself, and the same judgement will come when they are least expecting it to come!

Prophecy is never interpreted spiritually. We have the Old Testament as our guide, and the prophecies concerning Jesus. They aren't spiritual. They are natural. If they were not, everyone would just say, that's not talking about Jesus. Why? Because they will only consider it naturally. The reason people, such as lawyers, end up at the cross is because they see that the Old Testament prophecies interpreted naturally can only be speaking about Jesus. That is how clear it is. Jesus is being clear to His disciples. He isn't speaking to anyone else. It is only to the people Jesus spoke in parables, or "spiritually". To His disciples, He speaks plainly. We see this in the interpretation of parables. Jesus is speaking only to His disciples, not to the people.

The Old Testament has quite a bit to say about the times of Jacob's trouble, and Jesus reaches back there in speaking of the coming Great Tribulation. He doesn't say anything about it that the Old Testament does, he just expounds upon it. The Old Testament says the worst thing to ever happen to the Jews, since the founding of their people/nation, and the end, and Jesus says the same and adds that if those days weren't shorted we would have Earth: population 0.

Consider Herod and the religious leaders. Herod asked where the King of the Jews was to be born. The religious leaders weren't jumping up and down hysterically, cheering the birth of their upcoming King. They had spiritualized it all away. However, they knew the prophecy, and told Herod straight up, Bethlehem because God said so through a prophet. They, however, did not believe it because it didn't fit in with their spiritualized interpretation of the Messiah. If you spiritualize prophecy, you will miss out on God's work just as the Jewish religious leaders did.

The generation that won't pass away are those who see the sign of the fig tree, that is, see the signs of the coming end. Everything Jesus said prior, to include the gathering in of the elect at the end of the age, happens before the end of that generation.

 

[3 Resurrections]

You, 3 R'S are the one that's wrong. You are trusting Josephus' Wars of the Jews, when you should be trusting the word of God to deliver its truth to you.

Luke 21:21 is understood by scriptures just as :

Revelation 20:9​

“And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.”

You can trust extra biblical sources, (The Wars of the Jews, by the infidel Josephus) but, I will trust God's word for my understanding, it always delivers.

Red, you and I have gone over scripture's references to the Zealots before, but you apparently still don't consider that these texts have any relation to first-century history in Judea. The Zealots, such as Judas the Galilean of Acts 5:37 coming from their home turf in "Galilee of the Gentiles" in the north of Israel, were a plague on their own nation. Men of "Lawlessness", as scripture refers to the Zealots specifically. I haven't even brought up quotes from Josephus. But since you are not God Himself, you cannot make a pronouncement on Josephus's status before God. This is presumptuous of you to call him an infidel, when that is a conclusion impossible for you to determine, some 2,000 years down the road. You have no way of knowing this, one way or another.

Your words to EA is a bunch of beans, to put it nicely! Being well study in such things only opens the door for errors, when truth is found only in the word of God. Men, go outside of the scriptures when they are unable to defend their doctrine with the word of God that is pure and without error

Red, you are presuming that I am not including the study of the scriptures when I speak of the Zealots . Scripture tells us exactly what role the Zealots played in first-century Judean history. And apparently, you are still not considering this truthful scripture evidence. According to scripture's description of the ten horns on that Judean Scarlet Beast, Josephus ended up fulfilling the role of one of the ten horns of Revelation 17 who took down the whore which rode on the Judean Scarlet Beast's back.

Luke 21:21
“Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.”

If this is speaking of a literal war, then no one in their right mind would even desire to enter therein

Again, this WAS a literal war being warned about. In weeping over the physical city of Jerusalem, Christ predicted, "For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation." (Luke 19:43-44). These were very real, very physical prophesied disasters upon the people, their children, and the city of Jerusalem's infrastructure by invading physical armies.

Daniel warned in Daniel 9:27 against these "abominable armies" which would render Jerusalem desolate by those determined disasters. And Christ reminded his people in Matthew 24:15 to heed the written words of Daniel that would take place in their own experience in Judea and Jerusalem.

Christ in Matthew 12:43-45 also warned His own people that in their "last state", the entire demonic realm of unclean spirits would return in seven-fold numbers more wicked than those He had cast out during its "first state" of that first-century wicked generation. So, spiritual oppression by demonic forces was also added to all the physical disasters for the Judean nation and Jerusalem, just as promised. This type of oppression by the entire realm of unclean spirits among them caused that unprecedented level of "great tribulation" which would never be duplicated ever again in history that followed the AD 66-70 period.

 

[Red Baker]

Zechariah is very much about Israel's future. It tells us that 2/3 will die, and 1/3 are the elect of Israel WHO WILL BE SAVED.
"And I will turn My hand [d]against the little ones.
8 “It will come about in all the land,”
Declares the Lord,
“That two parts in it will be cut off and perish;
But the third will be left in it.
9 “And I will bring the third part through the fire,
Refine them as silver is refined,
And test them as gold is tested.
They will call on My name,
And I will answer them;
I will say, ‘They are My people,’
And they will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’”

You are actually quoting scriptures that reveals the meaning behind the mark of the beast!

What is two third of what ever is under consideration? 666!

 

[TMSO]

You are actually quoting scriptures that reveals the meaning behind the mark of the beast!

What is two third of what ever is under consideration? 666!

This is why you don't spiritualize. I guess that means the 333 means nothing? 2/3rds die. That is what it says. 2/3rds of the Jews alive at that time will die. The last 1/3rd will be the elect, the remnant.

 

[EarlyActs]

Christ spoke of "the consummation of the AGE" for His first-century generation to experience - not the end of the world. These are two different Greek words entirely, as I'm sure you are aware of. When Paul wrote in Ephesians 2:7 concerning "the AGES that are coming..." this indicated PLURAL AGES which would follow that first-century generation's last days Paul was then occupying. There was no "delay" of prophecy at all. Christ bodily returned as promised for His resurrected elect ones, "immediately after the tribulation of those days" involving Judea and Jerusalem's days of vengeance. We also will share in the same promise of a bodily resurrection when He comes once again for a third time in our future.


Kudos to you for becoming well-studied on the Zealot factions operating in those days. It does explain a LOT of Christ's and the scripture's prophecy of the last days during that "consummation of the age". Personally, I really enjoy reading Adam Maarschalk's Pursuing Truth website with his thorough coverage of all the varying Zealot factions and their competing leaders. He has made quite a study of this phase of history over the years he has been posting. Josephus himself actually is represented in scripture as being one of the ten horns on the Judean Scarlet Beast of Revelation 17 (but not Rev. 13, which is a different Beast connected with Rome).

A person can use two terms for the same thing. It is called articulation, intelligence.

 

[EarlyActs]

No. John mentioned one part, and that was to show that Jesus is the oOne at the end of the age.

Zechariah is very much about Israel's future. It tells us that 2/3 will die, and 1/3 are the elect of Israel WHO WILL BE SAVED.
"And I will turn My hand [d]against the little ones.
8 “It will come about in all the land,”
Declares the Lord,
“That two parts in it will be cut off and perish;
But the third will be left in it.
9 “And I will bring the third part through the fire,
Refine them as silver is refined,
And test them as gold is tested.
They will call on My name,
And I will answer them;
I will say, ‘They are My people,’
And they will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’”
Consider more of Zechariah.

"Behold, a day is coming for the Lord when the spoil taken from you will be divided among you. 2 For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered, the women ravished and half of the city exiled, but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city. 3 Then the Lord will go forth and fight against those nations, as [a]when He fights on a day of battle. 4 In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south. 5 You will flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains will reach to Azel; yes, you will flee just as you fled before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the Lord, my God, will come, and all the holy ones with [b]Him!
_____
Rev 19 "11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. 15 From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will [d]rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the [e]wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. 16 And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

He comes down with all the holy ones and defeats the beast and his armies, throwing them in the lake of fire.
____
Zechariah again
6 In that day there will be no light; the [c]luminaries will dwindle. 7 For it will be a unique day which is known to the Lord, neither day nor night, but it will come about that at evening time there will be light.
_________
Matthew 24 "29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from [r]the sky, and the powers of [s]the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His [t]elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
________________________
8 And in that day living waters will flow out of Jerusalem, half of them toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea; it will be in summer as well as in winter."

That sounds like Old Testament Millennial Kingdom talk.

It was the hearer's future when it was first written. That future would have been Christ's gospel event, and the end of the world was expected soon after, Rom 2, 2P3, and the Olivet material.

You are making your POV the guiding rule on how to read the OT. Not accepted.

That generation expected the end of the world right after the end of Jerusalem, but allowed for longer for three reasons.

 

[EarlyActs]

No. John mentioned one part, and that was to show that Jesus is the oOne at the end of the age.

Zechariah is very much about Israel's future. It tells us that 2/3 will die, and 1/3 are the elect of Israel WHO WILL BE SAVED.
"And I will turn My hand [d]against the little ones.
8 “It will come about in all the land,”
Declares the Lord,
“That two parts in it will be cut off and perish;
But the third will be left in it.
9 “And I will bring the third part through the fire,
Refine them as silver is refined,
And test them as gold is tested.
They will call on My name,
And I will answer them;
I will say, ‘They are My people,’
And they will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’”
Consider more of Zechariah.

"Behold, a day is coming for the Lord when the spoil taken from you will be divided among you. 2 For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered, the women ravished and half of the city exiled, but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city. 3 Then the Lord will go forth and fight against those nations, as [a]when He fights on a day of battle. 4 In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south. 5 You will flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains will reach to Azel; yes, you will flee just as you fled before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the Lord, my God, will come, and all the holy ones with [b]Him!
_____
Rev 19 "11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. 15 From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will [d]rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the [e]wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. 16 And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

He comes down with all the holy ones and defeats the beast and his armies, throwing them in the lake of fire.
____
Zechariah again
6 In that day there will be no light; the [c]luminaries will dwindle. 7 For it will be a unique day which is known to the Lord, neither day nor night, but it will come about that at evening time there will be light.
_________
Matthew 24 "29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from [r]the sky, and the powers of [s]the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His [t]elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
________________________
8 And in that day living waters will flow out of Jerusalem, half of them toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea; it will be in summer as well as in winter."

That sounds like Old Testament Millennial Kingdom talk.

In John's narrative of the crucifixion, he is clearly quoting Z about the event before him, not popping in a remark about X000 years in the future to make you feel exhiliarated.

You last line needs to be examined. Dan 2 made it clear that the kingdom would come in the days of Rome, but, as Christ confirmed, not be like the previous. The stone that smashed everything and that dust becomes a mountain of the Lord. The NT confirms all this saying the kingdom had arrived. The enthronement (the Davidic event of Ps 2 and 110) was the resurrection of Christ. No mistaking at all.

What you ridicule is actually what the apostles preached; the reign had arrived. That became an imperative message to all people.

 

[EarlyActs]

"10 For as many as are of the works of [o]the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.” 11 Now that no one is justified [p]by [q]the Law before God is evident; for, “[r]The righteous man shall live by faith.” 12 [s]However, the Law is not [t]of faith; on the contrary, “He who practices them shall live [u]by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a [v]tree”— 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might [w]come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."

"15 Brethren, I speak [x]in terms of human relations: even though it is only a man’s [y]covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds [z]conditions to it. 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as referring to many, but rather to one, “And to your seed,” that is, Christ. 17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. 18 For if the inheritance is [aa]based on law, it is no longer [ab]based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise."

Please say where anything is replaced.

It doesn't say that at all. Stop adding to the Book.

"26 Then after the sixty-two weeks the [aa]Messiah will be cut off and have [ab]nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And [ac]its end will come with a flood; even to the end [ad]there will be war; desolations are determined. 27 And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of [ae]abominations will come one who [af]makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who [ag]makes desolate.”"

The Messiah is cut off. What is the next pronoun or noun mentioned "the people". That means that the passage is no longer talking about the Messiah. There is something about these people. They serve the one who is to come, and they destroy the city and the sanctuary. So who is the he in the next verse. Considering that the pervious mentioned subject is the people "of the prince who is to come", the "he" must be "the prince who is to come". Why? Because he is connected to the people who come and destroy the sanctuary, and it doesn't say that they make the covenant, but that HE does. The one they serve. You completley jumped the shark and ignored the fact that there is another sentence. It goes from the people who destroy the city and the sanctuary, to speaking of the end of the city and sanctuary, and (yes, another and statement) he (the prince who is to come) will make a covenant, and the VIOLATE it after 3 1/2 years, since it clearly states it is supposed to stand for 7 years, and at the end he will be destroyed. For the HE at the beginning is the HE who comes on the wing of abominations, and has complete destruction poured out on him. I have a feeling this doesn't describe Jesus.

So God does invaliadate a covenant previously ratified, according to you here. Even though Galatians says that this doesn't happen because it isn't based on the law or covenant, but based on a promise. So, in your telling, Jesus violates a covenant, and God breaks a promise.

Maybe if you asked questions instead of pasted what I have known for decades, you'd get somewhere.

After explaining that the promise of the Gospel was before the Law existed, Pauls says that someone was voiding and setting aside the promise. That would be the Judaism he grew up in. They were the replacement culprits. Their excitement about the Law was inverse to what should have been excitement about the promise of the Gospel to all nations. Jesus said in Mt 23 they were twice sons of hell for doing so.

The Law (as practiced by Judaism in Paul's time) did not replace a promise to the nations that already existed.

 

[EarlyActs]

The gathering of the Jews back to their homeland following the diaspora. Everyone was set against it, and no one believed it would happen. Britian and the Arabs were actually plotting against it. (If you read the historical records.) Everyone was dead set against it. And then... it happened. And then a huge war with odds greater then 100 to 1 and the Arab nations were completely humiliated. There is no way Israel should have won. It's as if God was giving His stamp of approval. (On the event, not the people.)

You really shouldn't talk when it is all colored by G Eliot. Her novel, which shreds the NT by the absence of it, and her scholarship on the life of Jesus, show total ignorance of what the NT says, and created the idea that the mistaken Judaic Messiah message was the 'organic' or 'traditional' belief of the Jews and they were entitled to it. They can have their land of course, but there is nothing of this that is in the NT theology. Eph 2-3. In case you haven't noticed, the % of Jews in this so-called miracle land which believe the apostles is something like 0.01 percent. Not quite the outpouring of the Spirit, which is always the feature of the restoration, and was cited in Acts 3.

 

[EarlyActs]

You need to read the passage again. "24 “Seventy [t]weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to [u]finish the transgression, to [v]make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and [w]prophecy and to anoint the most holy place."

Lets' break it down:
"SEventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city". Seventy weeks. Using prophetic principles used before, this speaks of 70 sets of 7 years.
"decreed". Determined, decreed. That means it is in stone and will not change, especially since God said it. And there are witnesses because God told Gabriel who told Daniel.
"for your people" For the Jews. Not the Gentiles, not for the Philistines, Canaanites, Babylonians, Assyrians, Medo-Persians, etc. For the Jews alone.
"your holy city" Jerusalem.

So what is decreed for Daniel's people and the holy city? Seventy weeks "to [u]finish the transgression, to [v]make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and [w]prophecy and to anoint the most holy place."" All of this for the Jews and Jerusalem. And there it is right there. "to bring in everlasting righteousness" Now you say all this happens in Christ. So that means Christ can no longer have/give visions or prophesy, right? I mean, even Zechariah shows that this is prophesied for Israel, as well as the bringing in of everlasting righteousness. Pesky Zechariah again. Why? This speaks to the end of the age, the finishing of transgression and end of sin, and atonement for iniquity.

You seem to have mistaken the church for Israel. They are indeed separate. There is the church, made up of Gentiles and believing Jews, and there is Israel, which is made up of unbelieving Jews, and elect Jews not yet brought in. They are not part of the church. God has yet to deal with them, as Zechariah says. He has yet to purify them as gold and make them pure. That won't happen until 2/3rds of the Jewish population die off, and the 1/3rd are saved. (Zechariah again.)

God did not delay. God is not a man that He delays. Jesus never said that not even the Father knows the time of His coming. God knows. God has always known. There is no delay. There is a lot God has to play out for the Gentiles, before going back to Israel and closing out the story. Going back to gather His elect out of the nation of Israel.

The righteousness of God came in Christ, Rom 1, 3. That's what he was referring to and that's why there are not 2 atonements (Hebrews) and there will not be in the future. Rom 11 is clear at the end; God has shown mercy to all men now in Christ.

 

[EarlyActs]

You need to read the passage again. "24 “Seventy [t]weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to [u]finish the transgression, to [v]make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and [w]prophecy and to anoint the most holy place."

Lets' break it down:
"SEventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city". Seventy weeks. Using prophetic principles used before, this speaks of 70 sets of 7 years.
"decreed". Determined, decreed. That means it is in stone and will not change, especially since God said it. And there are witnesses because God told Gabriel who told Daniel.
"for your people" For the Jews. Not the Gentiles, not for the Philistines, Canaanites, Babylonians, Assyrians, Medo-Persians, etc. For the Jews alone.
"your holy city" Jerusalem.

So what is decreed for Daniel's people and the holy city? Seventy weeks "to [u]finish the transgression, to [v]make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and [w]prophecy and to anoint the most holy place."" All of this for the Jews and Jerusalem. And there it is right there. "to bring in everlasting righteousness" Now you say all this happens in Christ. So that means Christ can no longer have/give visions or prophesy, right? I mean, even Zechariah shows that this is prophesied for Israel, as well as the bringing in of everlasting righteousness. Pesky Zechariah again. Why? This speaks to the end of the age, the finishing of transgression and end of sin, and atonement for iniquity.

You seem to have mistaken the church for Israel. They are indeed separate. There is the church, made up of Gentiles and believing Jews, and there is Israel, which is made up of unbelieving Jews, and elect Jews not yet brought in. They are not part of the church. God has yet to deal with them, as Zechariah says. He has yet to purify them as gold and make them pure. That won't happen until 2/3rds of the Jewish population die off, and the 1/3rd are saved. (Zechariah again.)

God did not delay. God is not a man that He delays. Jesus never said that not even the Father knows the time of His coming. God knows. God has always known. There is no delay. There is a lot God has to play out for the Gentiles, before going back to Israel and closing out the story. Going back to gather His elect out of the nation of Israel.

It does no good to break it down when you misuse the pronouns.

 

[EarlyActs]

No. There is but one way of redemption. Even Abraham who died before Jesus was even born was saved by Jesus death on the cross. It wasn't a static event in history. The effect of Jesus death on the cross is in ETERNITY. It reaches all the way back to when God foreordained us to the adoption of children through Christ, before the foundation of the world. It is how God could choose in the first place. Without Christ, there is no adoption.

The Jews rejected Jesus as their Messiah, and rejected His message. Their rejection is shown in their crucifying of Him. That put the focus of salvation (one program) off of the Jews and onto the Gentiles, which Paul calls the time of the Gentiles. Once "the fulness of the Gentiles has come in", the program (still one program of salvation) focuses back in on Israel, where there is still an elect remnant awaiting salvation.

How do they get saved? Through and by the Father and the Son. Zechariah says that the Father opens the eyes of those who remain, and they recognize who Jesus is. And they repent. They mourn. They weep. They BELIEVE, which is a requirement of salvation that has never changed. They are broken to the point that they can only mourn over who they were, and who Jesus is. This is like Saul on the road to Damascus scaled up to national size. Jesus personally shows up and saves His people, as He saved Saul/Paul. There is only one program, the plan of redemption. It has more than one part.

The program is simply... salvation/redemption. There are various peoples involved, and there always has been. There are various nations involved, and there always has been. There is only one redemption, and that won't change no matter how badly you want it to. I'm sorry, there is but one redemption in Christ. Scripture is clear. Even Jesus showed the differentiation when He says that He was sent by the Father for the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Did He says that there are Gentiles in that fold? No, He speaks of a flock that is from another fold. Paul makes that differentiation in Romans when he speaks of the Jews as the natural branches to the tree, and the Gentiles as foreign. The Gentiles never become natural branches. The Jews never cease being natural branches,even after being cut off. Paul uses that to teach the Gentiles humility. Don't think that you, a foreign branch grafted into the tree can't be torn out again. How much easier is it to take the natural branch and reattach it in your place?

The idea that God has stopped trying to offer salvation to Jews is anti-semitic and ludicrous. Luther said Rom 11 was very clear: it would be great if they became Christians because they would be better at evangelism that many Gentiles.

The olive tree stands or falls by faith. Therefore it is not a race-nation. God was never doing race-nations. Many Gentile nations were being reached in the OT, parallel to Israel. God's nation, says the vineyard parable, is those who have faith, evangelize, and do the work of the vineyard. No race lines matter anymore, Jn 1.

 

[EarlyActs]

Prophecy is never interpreted spiritually. We have the Old Testament as our guide, and the prophecies concerning Jesus. They aren't spiritual. They are natural. If they were not, everyone would just say, that's not talking about Jesus. Why? Because they will only consider it naturally. The reason people, such as lawyers, end up at the cross is because they see that the Old Testament prophecies interpreted naturally can only be speaking about Jesus. That is how clear it is. Jesus is being clear to His disciples. He isn't speaking to anyone else. It is only to the people Jesus spoke in parables, or "spiritually". To His disciples, He speaks plainly. We see this in the interpretation of parables. Jesus is speaking only to His disciples, not to the people.

The Old Testament has quite a bit to say about the times of Jacob's trouble, and Jesus reaches back there in speaking of the coming Great Tribulation. He doesn't say anything about it that the Old Testament does, he just expounds upon it. The Old Testament says the worst thing to ever happen to the Jews, since the founding of their people/nation, and the end, and Jesus says the same and adds that if those days weren't shorted we would have Earth: population 0.

Consider Herod and the religious leaders. Herod asked where the King of the Jews was to be born. The religious leaders weren't jumping up and down hysterically, cheering the birth of their upcoming King. They had spiritualized it all away. However, they knew the prophecy, and told Herod straight up, Bethlehem because God said so through a prophet. They, however, did not believe it because it didn't fit in with their spiritualized interpretation of the Messiah. If you spiritualize prophecy, you will miss out on God's work just as the Jewish religious leaders did.

The generation that won't pass away are those who see the sign of the fig tree, that is, see the signs of the coming end. Everything Jesus said prior, to include the gathering in of the elect at the end of the age, happens before the end of that generation.

He said that gen he was in would not pass away until seeing all these things. I'm afraid you can't or are unwilling to read it.

The timestamp, which is biological, is at Lk 23:28. Those babies at the crucifixion event would see the country decimated.

 

[TMSO]

It was the hearer's future when it was first written. That future would have been Christ's gospel event, and the end of the world was expected soon after, Rom 2, 2P3, and the Olivet material.

Yet, while people misinterpreted what Jesus said and believed the end of the world was expected soon, that soon followed the meaning of at hand, not, in a few minutes or days. As God is obviously not done gathering in the elect, it obviously was never intended to mean the end of the world was the first or second century. To believe that is to make the same mistake as the religious leaders who told Herod where the "King of the Jews" was to be born, but did not believe that the King of the Jews was coming any times soon, and most certainly was not just born in Bethlehem. They believed it was long down the road, and, with no

You are making your POV the guiding rule on how to read the OT. Not accepted.

Except that it was Jesus POV that had Him stop reading once He reached the point that was fulfilled. And then He directly told the people, what you have just heard is being fulfilled NOW. Why didn't He keep on reading if there was more? It is understood that anything He didn't read is not being fulfilled. Is He deceiving them, or was it just not yet fulfilled?

That generation expected the end of the world right after the end of Jerusalem, but allowed for longer for three reasons.

No. Again, why don't you believe God knows everything, and is somehow still undecided so it is only "allowed" for longer? Jesus already stated at His time that the Father already knows when the end will be. No one else knows (which would include us, which includes you) when Jesus WILL return. If He has already returned, then the world is already over. Even the Olivet Discourse makes that much clear.

"29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from [r]the sky, and the powers of [s]the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His [t]elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other."

If the elect are still here, and with some people I do question (that is sarcasm), then this has not happened. However, Jesus said that that generation would not pass away before they see this very thing happen. But they didn't. Which means Jesus didn't mean that generation as in first century Israel. He meant the generation of those who see and recognize the signs of His final coming. They would not pass away before it happens. Like with God's prophecy to Simeon, that he would not die until he saw the destruction of Israel, I mean, the redemption of Israel, which is Jesus Christ. If Jesus is their redemption, how is He their destruction.

Peter in 2 Peter 3 says "9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance."

If the Lord is not slow why are you saying that He is. To say that it was allowed to be longer then originally intended, means the Lord is slow. The problem is that that is the viewpoint of man. Don't count slowness as they do. It isn't slowness when God already knows exactly when the world will end, and knew since before the foundation of the world. That isn't slowness except in the view of those who don't have a clue. God is patient towards you. Who is you? The audience, the elect. God doesn't want any of the elect to perish, but that all the elect come to repentance. So even Peter knows that the end of everything hinges on God's will in regards to the elect. God isn't being slow.