Question on books of the bible dating

[Red Baker]

Matthew 24 "29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from [r]the sky, and the powers of [s]the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His [t]elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other."

So, do tell us when this occurred, and when all the tribes of the whole world saw Jesus return for His second coming. They aren't mourning because they are happy to see Him.

As a Amill idealist, I'm reading both of the discourse between you two, and you both have questions that the other cannot honestly, and scripturally answer. Matthew 24 discourse presents statements concerning the latter days just before the coming of Jesus Christ to gather together his very elect from the four winds of heaven, that other scriptures beautifully connects, which only those believers who hold to the position of Amill idealist have answers. As a side note: Matthew 24 and 25 is one complete discourse that must not be divided.

The preterist, or half preterist must removed 70 A. D. theory from their minds before they will ever come unto the knowledge of the truth contain in the Olivet discourse. The Premill, or dispensationalist, must removed the natural seed of Abraham as the centered piece of their interpretation of Bible prophecy, since they have absolutely no part in latter day Bible prophecy.

 

[TMSO]

As a Amill idealist, I'm reading both of the discourse between you two, and you both have questions that the other cannot honestly, and scripturally answer. Matthew 24 discourse presents statements concerning the latter days just before the coming of Jesus Christ to gather together his very elect from the four winds of heaven, that other scriptures beautifully connects, which only those believers who hold to the position of Amill idealist have answers. As a side note: Matthew 24 and 25 is one complete discourse that must not be divided.

The preterist, or half preterist must removed 70 A. D. theory from their minds before they will ever come unto the knowledge of the truth contain in the Olivet discourse. The Premill, or dispensationalist, must removed the natural seed of Abraham as the centered piece of their interpretation of Bible prophecy, since they have absolutely no part in latter day Bible prophecy.

If you want to know how it works, the Nation of Israel is made up of both those who are the natural seed of Abraham, and those who are BOTH the natural and spiritual seed of Abraham. Hence Paul can say that not all who are of Israel (spiritual/natural seed of Abraham) are of Israel (they are only physical, natural seed descendants of Abraham, not spiritual.) In Zechariah, Israel, the nation of, is divided into three parts, where 2/3rds are marked for death, but 1/3rd will be saved, and God will purge and purify them. The only one's of Israel alive at the end of the time of Jacob's trouble, the Great Tribulation Jesus speaks of, which is the time of Jacob's trouble mentioned by the prophets of the Old Testament, will be those of the 1/3rd remnant of Israel. They will see Jesus at Jerusalem, and will recognize Him as King. ("Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.") Jesus, in Matthew, after the Triumphal Entry, when leaving Jerusalem said that they would not see Him again UNTIL they say "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord." That is, they will not see Him again until they recognize Him as King.

They still have not recognized Him as King. I'm not sure where you get that I have a problem with eschtology because of the natural seed of Abraham. The elect of the nation of Israel are BOTH the natural and spiritual seed of Abraham. The Gentiles are ONLY the spiritual seed of Abraham. All that matters is that the church, the people of God, are the spiritual seed of Abraham. Being the natural seed of Abraham has no bearing on whether one is a part of the church or not. It does have a bearing on whether one is of Israel or not, being of both the natural and spiritual seed of Abraham. Again, in the church, it doesn't matter if one is of the natural seed of Abraham. There is neither Jew or Gentile in the church.

The problem you will have with saying that Matthew 24 and 25 is one unified answer to three different questions is going to haunt you. It can be divided and still be one discourse. One can answer multiple questions in a single sermon/discourse. It does help to understand the disciples questions however. They asked for a sign of Jesus coming. The thing to understand is that they were not asking about Jesus second coming, because they didn't even know He was leaving. That word coming, in the Greek, speaks of a King coming/visiting their Kingdom or domain. The disciples were asking about the Father unveiling Christ and presenting Him as King, and Jesus enters into His Kingdom. They are asking about Jewish eschatology, the physical Kingdom on Earth in Jerusalem/Israel. And Jesus answers this question. They still did not know Jesus was leaving, given their question in Acts 1.

"6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?"

What did Jesus answer? He did not say no did He? "7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power."

Jesus restoring again the kingdom to Israel is a time or season. Jesus is saying, it isn't now, and it isn't for you to know when. However, know that the Father has set these times or seasons by His own power. So Jesus will restore again the kingdom to Israel, but not then, and in fact, it isn't for the disciples to know. That is the Father's business. However, Jesus did give a parable that gives the signs of the approaching "time of Jacob's trouble", and His second coming. The parable of the fig tree. He also gave an explanation of it not being for us to know the times or seasons with the parable of the absent master who is out on a journey, whose return time is not known. We are to be occupied as though His return is imminent and at hand, until He returns and finds us busy doing the business He left with us when He left. Or, He finds us foolish, full of debauchery, and not taking care of business, as with that servant who was out getting drunk, surprised when the Master comes home early.

When Jesus speaks of the "Great Tribulation", He is speaking of the prophesied "time of Jacob's trouble". That time will be the worst time ever faced by Israel from the founding of their peoples by God/Moses, to the end of time. Given the scale of horror of the holocaust, this isn't talking about the first century. Given Jesus didn't return after the holocaust, and the population of the world was not in danger of hitting zero if the war continued on a few more days, it wasn't the holocaust. Try to imagine an even that dwarfs both the first century and the holocaust, and, if the time is not shortened, would wipe out the whole population of Earth. That would most certainly qualify as a Great Tribulation, and, since the main focus will be on Israel, "the time of Jacob's trouble".

 

[EarlyActs]

As a Amill idealist, I'm reading both of the discourse between you two, and you both have questions that the other cannot honestly, and scripturally answer. Matthew 24 discourse presents statements concerning the latter days just before the coming of Jesus Christ to gather together his very elect from the four winds of heaven, that other scriptures beautifully connects, which only those believers who hold to the position of Amill idealist have answers. As a side note: Matthew 24 and 25 is one complete discourse that must not be divided.

The preterist, or half preterist must removed 70 A. D. theory from their minds before they will ever come unto the knowledge of the truth contain in the Olivet discourse. The Premill, or dispensationalist, must removed the natural seed of Abraham as the centered piece of their interpretation of Bible prophecy, since they have absolutely no part in latter day Bible prophecy.

Hi RedB,
I think you have missed the most important of my beliefs. That is:

Mt 24A et al is about 1st cent. Judea. Up to v29.
Then Mt 24B is, as it says, about the whole world, even the universe.
Mt 24B would have been 'right after' A had not an allowance for delay been expressed. This is in a few verse in 24B and in Mk 13. Most important, it is the topic of 2 Peter 3, explicitly.

I think all views crash on the rocks of these points, by missing one or the other.

The NT is crammed with reference to the end of the world very soon, so the distinction made by 24 et al was in place all that generation. They did not think differently until after the destruction of the country, and were still alive. They continued to be missionaries, Latourrette, p44 (history of church).

Everyone should remember the very simple line of Hebrews 2. "We are talking about the world to come." This is in a letter to Hebrew Christians. There is not going to be a millenium, a golden age of Judaism under a Messiah. He, Christ, was enthroned Davidically in the resurrection, Acts 2:30+. All mankind is summoned to honor him, lest he be angry and dash them to pieces.

 

[EarlyActs]

@3 Resurrections

Just a quick question.

Do you have a go to for checking on suggested dates of when the books of the bible were written.

I know they are all over the place but the other day I was checking on Acts, vs the 4 main gospels because I had read something that did not sit well and I kept running into the suggesting that the first 3 could well have been written after
70AD which could not be.



But Acts is said to be written 64AD and so the three that talk of 70AD had to be written before hand, but after the Cruciixion right?

Do these seem right to you?

Math 67 AD

Mark 66 AD

Luke 63AD

I’ll respond a bit later with what I last recall from masters level research on ‘Luke-Acts and the Jewish revolt.’

 

[Rella]

I’ll respond a bit later with what I last recall from masters level research on ‘Luke-Acts and the Jewish revolt.’

View attachment 989

 

[EarlyActs]

@3 Resurrections

Just a quick question.

Do you have a go to for checking on suggested dates of when the books of the bible were written.

I know they are all over the place but the other day I was checking on Acts, vs the 4 main gospels because I had read something that did not sit well and I kept running into the suggesting that the first 3 could well have been written after
70AD which could not be.



But Acts is said to be written 64AD and so the three that talk of 70AD had to be written before hand, but after the Cruciixion right?

Do these seem right to you?

Math 67 AD

Mark 66 AD

Luke 63AD

I did master's level research on 'Luke-Acts and the Jewish revolt.' One of my instructors, in my 2nd year, went to England to be on the board of the NIDT, as I recall, the New Int'l Dictionary of Theology.

I believe his go-to was O Cullmann. Otherwise I suggest consulting F Bruce.

Generally, the landscape is like this: there is a belief in a verbal recitation which the scholars call the 'quelle' (German for 'source'). They actually start with Acts 2-4 and then Peter in 9-10 for the earliest 'capture' of that. You can see a 'gospel' literary form start there (birth-ministry-death-resurrection). Notice how Paul copies this at a distant synagogue in Acts 13 but tells the entire history of Israel in front of it, and ends on justification by Christ after it.

Mark is considered the earliest written down simply on account of being shortest. Matthew is considered next because of his adding intro things which he believed were important. Next is Luke where the 'gospel form' is about equal, but the nativity has now swollen, with an alternate geneaology.

But more important about Luke is his two intros: he is consciously collecting the other accounts to write his. That gives you a sequence. 2nd, they are written to defend Paul from accusations which include those 'live' events in the early 60s before he was transported to Rome, so the two documents (Luke-Acts) belong there, but drew on priors.

Luke has time-lapse or 'latent' elements. For ex., in the cleansing of the temple, the event obviously happened in Jesus' ministry but he chose 'leistes' (brigands; political terrorists) for the term we usually know as 'thieves.' This means he felt comfortable speaking to the erupting violence in the 60s in Judea through Jesus words from 35 years earlier. In the late years, temple money was being used to buy weapons and fortify it. The Roman leader Florus seized some of this in 66 and the revolt started, because he had just cut the zealots in the throat, but also technically was in the temple and violating it.

So now we come to the other important 'dating' matter: how the 'abomination' is mentioned.
Pop eschatology fantasizes that the abomination is around our corner. This is nonsense; please turn off the tape.

Due to the length, I'll start that in another post.

 

[EarlyActs]

the dating of the gospels and the 'abomination.'
Mk and Mt have their reference to the abomination as a person/thing. When the readers see it happen in the Jerusalem temple in the 1st cent., they should get away. (A huge number of Christians left for the Pella area). Mt had references to the destructive events of the 50s in chs 21, 22, 23 and 24.

To know who this is, we have the Dan 9 70 weeks coming to its end. Christ would confirm the new covenant with Israel, end temple sacrifice in the theoretical sense with it, and then there would be all hell. But Dan 9:27a matches the events til 36 and the church is launched. In Dan 8:13 and then continuing, there is an 'rebellion that desolates' and this is attached to an awful person who would come during the 4th ruling empire outlined in ch 2, Rome. This rebellion could have started almost any time after 36, and there were rumblings, as Jesus described. There was of course Judas the Galilean in 6 BC in response to the census, Acts 5.

Josephus the priest-warrior knew of this Dan 9 material and that a rebellion would fail miserably. Caiaphas did not want the rebellion to happen and tried to circumvent it by killing Jesus, stupidly releasing Barrabbas, but either way, he knew the rebellion was due to happen.

But the letter to the Hebrews gives us a clue when it says God endured the generation for 40 years, and the author speaks of Israel as, once again, being that kind of generation. So this final conflict is easily stretched out to that decisive generation. The land was in danger of being burned, says ch 7. In Lk 23:28, a timestamp is given which is unmistakable as to an end limit: when the present infants were adults they would go through a horrible destructive event. A line like that is one of many that hook the Rev into these mid-1st-century events.

But notice what Luke does. He says when you see the city surrounded with the Roman military tactic (Lk 21) that choked off and sieged cities. So again we have a precise reason why Luke might be a bit later. Luke actually has some kind of reference to the zealot revolt in chs 11, 13, 15, 17, 19 and 21. It was going to fail and go down as a rejection of Christ as Messiah.

These references to the zealots, which were all condemning of them, were meant to protect Paul in testimony to Roman administrators. He was once mistaken as a terrorist in ch 22.

So Luke shifting from the person in the temple to the military tactic might mean he finished his gospel a year later than the Mk-Mt, after the rebellion starts but before the siege stage, 68.

I haven't mentioned John. Unique intro, of course, and no human nativity. Unique miracles. Then the ministry but then a 4 chapter close up on the upper room. Then it ends in crucifixion and resurrection. It really was a separate effort, but has the gospel literary form, and is removed from the details of the Jewish revolt issue, except for capturing Caiaphas 'prophecy' about it and then his blunder with Barrabbas. Luke could have drawn on John, but stays much closer to Mk-Mt.

Don't forget that as far as the authority of the apostles teaching, these dates don't mean much. The most important empirical fact is actually that 40 days of teaching took place from the resurrection to Pentecost, and the best way to know what that was about is to trace the quotes of the OT. That can be done with any version that marks or footnotes them. NIV, NET.

 

[TMSO]

Hi RedB,
I think you have missed the most important of my beliefs. That is:

Mt 24A et al is about 1st cent. Judea. Up to v29.
Then Mt 24B is, as it says, about the whole world, even the universe.
Mt 24B would have been 'right after' A had not an allowance for delay been expressed. This is in a few verse in 24B and in Mk 13. Most important, it is the topic of 2 Peter 3, explicitly.

There is no allowance for delay in Jesus speech. None at all. Even the rest of the chapter says that.

"34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

What are "all these things"? Everything up to verse 31, which is where the parable of the fig tree begins. What comes after all of that is the final judgment, so Jesus placed this AFTER the parable of the fig tree, and AFTER his statement about the generation. So just as you say there is no gap in Daniel 12, there is no gap in Matthew 24, except for what comes AFTER the parable of the fig tree, and after the other parable. That is, the complete end, the final consummation of everything at the final judgment.

I think all views crash on the rocks of these points, by missing one or the other.

The NT is crammed with reference to the end of the world very soon, so the distinction made by 24 et al was in place all that generation. They did not think differently until after the destruction of the country, and were still alive. They continued to be missionaries, Latourrette, p44 (history of church).

Everyone should remember the very simple line of Hebrews 2. "We are talking about the world to come." This is in a letter to Hebrew Christians. There is not going to be a millenium, a golden age of Judaism under a Messiah. He, Christ, was enthroned Davidically in the resurrection, Acts 2:30+. All mankind is summoned to honor him, lest he be angry and dash them to pieces.

When the disciples asked Jesus if there was going to be a millennium, a golden age of Judaism under Jesus right as He was getting ready to leave (they didn't know He was leaving), did Jesus say no? [The exact question is, would Jesus AT THIS TIME [soon, imminent] restore the Kingdom to Israel. The understanding is that He would be king. Again the disciples did not know Jesus was leaving.] No, Jesus said it was not for them to know when God had scheduled for the kingdom to be returned to Israel. They were to be Jesus ambassadors to the world.

 

[Rella]

I have long felt that the understanding of the word generation IS NOT understood when it comes to "THIS GENERATION SHALL NOT PASS.

First off.... who would "this generation" be comprised of? Those of about the same age, or everyone living at that time, or as some have defined the term.

There are so many ideas about what generation means and we cannot know if what Compelling truth says is correct or not simply because
a case can be made for most of them.

Compelling Truth:

When Jesus said, 'This generation will not pass,' what did He mean?

When Jesus said, 'This generation will not pass,' what did He mean? What was Jesus talking about in Matthew 24:34 (Mark 13:30; Luke 21:32)? Was Jesus' statement about this generation not passing until certain things took place wrong?

www.compellingtruth.org

When Jesus said, 'This generation will not pass,' what did He mean?​

In Matthew 24:34 Jesus taught, "Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place" (also Mark 13:30; Luke 21:32). Many interpretations exist regarding this passage. Which one is correct?

The most common understanding of this passage interprets "generation" as "race." In other words, the Jewish race or people will not pass away until all of the end-times signs Jesus mentioned take place.

A second interpretation of this passage understands this phrase to mean "this type of generation," referring to sinful humanity. Understood this way, the passage would refer to sinful people persisting until the return of Christ. While possible, this interpretation is unlikely as it assumes wicked people will no longer exist following this period though the curse of sin does not end until the new heavens and new earth in Revelation 21—22.

A third interpretation of this passage is that the generation Jesus mentioned is the generation experiencing the signs of the end of the age. In other words, once the signs Jesus mentions in Matthew 24 begin to take place, they will unfold quickly, within the lifetime of the same generation, meaning within a short number of years.

A fourth interpretation sees this passage as referring to a double fulfillment. In this understanding, some aspects were fulfilled historically, such as the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 (Matthew 24:1-2), while other aspects are still future. Though possible, this is a more difficult view to support since one must show Jesus intended a double fulfillment to His words rather than a clear, single understanding.

For sure I dont think people back in that time had any concept of "generation".. or it is we that dont know what they meant.

I am still working on how in KJV Gen 2:4
These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, Gets plural Generations in a 144 hours of creation.

The following , however is part of Mathew 24 CJB translation... Note verse 34 (Cut due to size)

24

32 “Now let the fig tree teach you its lesson: when its branches begin to sprout and leaves appear, you know that summer is approaching. 33 In the same way, when you see all these things, you are to know that the time is near, right at the door. 34 Yes! I tell you that this people will certainly not pass away before all these things happen. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

36 “But when that day and hour will come, no one knows — not the angels in heaven, not the Son, only the Father. 37 For the Son of Man’s coming will be just as it was in the days of Noach. 38 Back then, before the Flood, people went on eating and drinking, taking wives and becoming wives, right up till the day Noach entered the ark; 39 and they didn’t know what was happening until the Flood came and swept them all away. It will be just like that when the Son of Man comes. 40 Then there will be two men in a field — one will be taken and the other left behind. 41 There will be two women grinding flour at the mill — one will be taken and the other left behind. 42 So stay alert, because you don’t know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But you do know this: had the owner of the house known when the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you too must always be ready, for the Son of Man will come when you are not expecting him.

45 “Who is the faithful and sensible servant whose master puts him in charge of the household staff, to give them their food at the proper time? 46 It will go well with that servant if he is found doing his job when his master comes. 47 Yes, I tell you that he will put him in charge of all he owns. 48 But if that servant is wicked and says to himself, ‘My master is taking his time’; 49 and he starts beating up his fellow servants and spends his time eating and drinking with drunkards; 50 then his master will come on a day the servant does not expect, at a time he doesn’t know; 51 and he will cut him in two and put him with the hypocrites, where people will wail and grind their teeth!

Finally: Jesus had said no one but the Father knew of the day or the hour... He could not have told them. AND FOR SURE... not all of it happened in 70AD

 

[Red Baker]

If you want to know how it works, the Nation of Israel is made up of both those who are the natural seed of Abraham, and those who are BOTH the natural and spiritual seed of Abraham.

Actually TMSO, all Premillennialist should come to this truth, so they will not give the natural seed of Abraham false hope of causing them to believe they are the true elect seed of God's promises, when they are not.

This same truth holds true for the church post Christ, until this very day~not all profess followers of Christ are his promised heirs, only the children of his promises are, and they are known by, faith, works that follow faith, and the truth they preach.

Hence Paul can say that not all who are of Israel (spiritual/natural seed of Abraham) are of Israel (they are only physical, natural seed descendants of Abraham, not spiritual.)

TMSO, one can read this as many times as they will, and never come to understand what you are saying, you make no sense. You said:

Hence Paul can say that not all who are of Israel (spiritual/natural seed of Abraham) are of Israel

That takes in ALL, since you mentioned both, the spiritual and natural seed! You like to try this again?

In Zechariah, Israel, the nation of, is divided into three parts, where 2/3rds are marked for death, but 1/3rd will be saved, and God will purge and purify them.

As I said above, or in another thread recently, that verse is the key of understanding the mark of the beast. Two third of a whole is .666! Maybe later, more on this.

The only one's of Israel alive at the end of the time of Jacob's trouble, the Great Tribulation Jesus speaks of, which is the time of Jacob's trouble mentioned by the prophets of the Old Testament

TMSO, that's the key of understanding OT prophecy...how do the NT apostles, who were Jews by nature, interpreted their own OT scriptures! First, Jacob has reference to the totality of the very elect, Jews and Gentiles, in bible prophecy.

Luke 1:33​

“And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.”

Both the angle and Luke testify that the house of Jacob are the very elect of God's promises and oath.

The time of Jacob's trouble will happen during the little season of Revelation, etc. when the beast, (the antichrists' kingdoms of this world doing the will of Satan) will make war with the saints of God, and for a very short period of time, seemly will overcome them. Revelation 13, etc.

I'll give a quick brief overview of "my" understanding of this chapter. As you know, evil beasts are images in Scripture that often signify the carnal (fleshly), beastly, dangerous nature of man. It is sometimes used to signify evil Kingdoms or wicked carnal individuals.

I'll make another post to connect with this one.

 

[Red Baker]

This one goes with my last post....

Psalms 73:22

• "So foolish was I, and ignorant: I was as a beast before thee."

It is my position that beasts are often used in Scripture to signify the animalistic flesh driven nature of man. Without Christ, man is as a creature or beast without conscience or wisdom, and like a beast his driving force is to get whatever it desires, to tear, to devour, without consideration for law. It is often used to represent kingdoms or individuals as a token of those who live by the flesh (carnal nature) rather than the Spirit of God's law. I also believe that Revelation chapter 13 uses this imagery to paint a portrait of the carnal kingdom of Satan, as well as the false prophets whom he empowers to devour. The carnal, rebellious, disobedient man ruled by Satan is the likeness (image) of the beast.

Revelation 13:1-2

• "And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
• And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority."

Without going into too much detail, the sea often used in Scripture as a synonym for the deep, bottomless pit or abyss, the spiritual place where this evil spirit resides ready to be loosed upon man at any moment. The first beast is the body of the antichrist (his kingdom) that was wounded at Christ's death and resurrection. The heads in Scripture often signify authority, and the number 7 is the perfect number of completeness. Thus I believe that the 7 heads represent Satan's authority to rule as the prince of this world throughout time (7 mountains = 7 kingdoms). Horns in Scripture often signify the power of whatever is in view, as the horn that was broken in Daniel (meaning his power was broken). The number 10 signifies the fullness of whatever is in view. In this instance the 10 horns signify Satan's "Power" over men to rule for the fullness of this short period of time near the time of the end of the world. The fullness and rule of this period is also spoken of in Scripture as one hour. Thus these 10 horns rule (as kings) with the beast kingdom one hour. And their crowns again illustrate they reign with him. i.e., crowns are for kings.

Revelation 17:12

• "And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast."

This also shows clearly that the first beast (with these 10 horns) spans the completeness (7) of time, and near the end of this time (the 1 hour of God's judgment) when the church becomes spiritually Babylon, these 10 kings will reign with him for this short period (little season KJV) after Satan is loosed from the bottomless pit. The wound that was healed was the power of Satan to deceive the nations, which was before taken away (when Satan was bound) by Christ. At this time when Satan is loosed (the would healed), he again goes out to gather together and deceive the nations to bring them up against the camp of the saints.

Revelation 13:3

• "And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast."

Christ, of course, wounded him by the cross, and also looses the beast, or heals that wound, after all Israel are sealed. Satan is loosed so that He might bring judgment upon the unfaithful (spiritual harlot) church.

Revelation 13:4-5

• "And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
• And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months."

Under the authority of Satan, these kings rule and go to make war against the camp of the saints (the church), it being judged of God for its abominations, after which is the return of Christ on the clouds of glory. Christ wounds and Christ heals that wound, to the glory of God.

Psalms 68:20-22

• "He that is our God is the God of salvation; and unto GOD the Lord belong the issues from death.
• But God shall wound the head of his enemies, and the hairy scalp of such an one as goeth on still in his trespasses.
• The Lord said, I will bring again from Bashan, I will bring my people again from the depths of the sea:"

Compare Revelation 17:8,11 of, "the beast that was, and is not, and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit." In other words, this is the Beast, this is the power of Satan as he brought Israel into apostasy, as Christ defeated him, and as he again ascends out of the bottomless pit to attack the church. Just as a ravenous beast would attack the sheep in a fold, so Satan comes as an adversary of the house of God. He was because He ruled before Christ bound him. He is not because Christ bound Him. And He ascends out of the Pit because Christ looses him.

And the ability to bring God's external church down was bound or restrained by Christ's binding Satan over 2000 years ago, but his loosing after the millennial reign allows this judgment, even as Israel was judged. Thus the Gentile congregation is no better than the Jewish one. Apostasy knows no bounds. The blasphemies that he speaks is his false teachings and contradictions forsaking the Word of God. These are the great things he speaks that deceive and which Revelation 13 talks about.

Revelation 13:6-7

• "And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
• And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

Same as Revelation 20 when Satan is loosed from the Pit to make war with the saints.

 

[Red Baker]

Revelation 13:8-9

• "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
• If any man have an ear, let him hear."

All of those who aren't sealed of God in Israel worship the carnal, Pseudo or Antichrist instead of God. He has deceived them so that they serve him, thinking they do God service.

Revelation 13:10-11

• "He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
• And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon."

John sees another vision of a beast coming up from the earth. The earth signifies they come up from the world, and this beast has two horns like a lamb, but speaks as a dragon. This beast represents the false prophets. They come looking like they have the power of the messenger of light (horns signify power, the number two signifies the truthful witness of the church), but what gives them away is that they speak as the Dragon, which is Satan. In other words, they appear as a messenger of light, but their gospel is false and of the adversary Satan.

The first beast, who the false prophets cause men to worship, represents the antichrist, or more to the point Satan's substitute kingdom. It is the body of false worshipers. Revelation is written this way because just as the true church is represented by the body of Christ, and the Old Testament congregation by the body of Moses, the false congregation is seen as the body of the anti (substitute) or false Christ. The false prophets are those who cause the unfaithful to depart from Scripture and worship Him. All Israel who are not sealed unto the day of redemption.

Revelation 13:12-14

• "And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
• And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
• And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live."

The deadly wound was given the beast who is to be worshiped at the cross. Christ dealt the adversary a death wound so that he could not deceive the nations (and the church could be built), but at this time Satan is loosed from his prison. This is spoken of as the deadly wound being healed, and the reason is so that the unfaithful people of the world might again serve him (as judgment). The false prophets, the second beast, deceive the unfaithful people and seduce them into serving this antichrist kingdom by means of false miracles, signs and wonders. Remember, Satan was bound for the specific purpose of the nations not being deceived. Now that He is loosed, his false prophets again deceive the nations, in order to usher in the Lord's second coming.

Revelation 13:15-16

• " And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
• And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:"

The false prophets give life to the likeness of the Antichrist by propagating their false teachings, which leads to them overcoming the church and causing all the faithful therein (the two witnesses) to be killed. Those remaining as a judgment of God are said to be marked on their hand (not literally as some suppose, but spiritually) signifying their will belongs to them, and in their forehead, signifying their mind is sold out to Satan. Just as a cow is branded or marked to signify ownership, so this signifies these unsealed are slaves to the antichrist.

Revelation 13:17-18

• "And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
• Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six."

Only those men who ahve the mark of the beast are able to buy and sell............ or, are able to work, move freely within the false churches of the latter day, those who have not the mark of beast (the very elect) have separated themselves from them or are not welcome in their assembles, or places of worship.

 

[Red Baker]

They still have not recognized Him as King. I'm not sure where you get that I have a problem with eschtology because of the natural seed of Abraham. The elect of the nation of Israel are BOTH the natural and spiritual seed of Abraham. The Gentiles are ONLY the spiritual seed of Abraham. All that matters is that the church, the people of God, are the spiritual seed of Abraham. Being the natural seed of Abraham has no bearing on whether one is a part of the church or not. It does have a bearing on whether one is of Israel or not, being of both the natural and spiritual seed of Abraham. Again, in the church, it doesn't matter if one is of the natural seed of Abraham. There is neither Jew or Gentile in the church.

"They still have not recognized Him as King." And they never will, unless they are part of the children of God's oath and promises in Christ during this present dispensation. When Christ comes the second time then this world comes to its end.

A question for you to answer: which comes first~the man of sin, or Christ's second coming when every eye shall see him? Let Paul tell us, shall we....

2nd Thessalonians 2:1-3~Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

Jesus comes for us after the man of sin is revealed~your timeline has Christ coming before the man of sin is revealed. Your system has many problems to address.

The Gentiles are ONLY the spiritual seed of Abraham.

That is the only children that were promised to Abraham's seed, which is Christ! They all are spiritual children of Abraham, being the natural seed has no bearing as to being part of the children of God's oath and promises of grace.

Again, in the church, it doesn't matter if one is of the natural seed of Abraham. There is neither Jew or Gentile in the church.

That's true, yet it is also true, that IN THE SCRIPTURES it does not matter of your bloodline, since this has not one thing to do with God's promises, nor his oath, to Jesus Christ and his seed.

I have some meetings.....later.

 

[TMSO]

Actually TMSO, all Premillennialist should come to this truth, so they will not give the natural seed of Abraham false hope of causing them to believe they are the true elect seed of God's promises, when they are not.

Read slower. Two groups. One group are those who are only the natural seed of Abraham. That is all they are. And Paul has a message for them when he said that not all who are of Israel are of Israel. Paul is saying that only those who are both the physical and spiritual seeds of Israel are those for whom the promises stand.

This same truth holds true for the church post Christ, until this very day~not all profess followers of Christ are his promised heirs, only the children of his promises are, and they are known by, faith, works that follow faith, and the truth they preach.

TMSO, one can read this as many times as they will, and never come to understand what you are saying, you make no sense. You said:

There is the nation of Israel, and the remnant of Israel. At this time they are bound together under a partial blindness/hardening. Once this time ends, the elect will be all that is left of Israel, as God will destroy the Nation of Israel, and will purge/purify the remnant. (Zechariah speaks of this when he writes that they will be divided into thirds, two thirds consigned to death, 1/3rd consigned to purgin/purifying.

That takes in ALL, since you mentioned both, the spiritual and natural seed! You like to try this again?

So you already do not understand what Paul was saying when he said that all who are of Israel are not of Israel? All who are physical descendants of Abraham are not also spiritual descendants of Abraham. So not all who were part of the secular nation of Israel by birth, are also God's chosen elect. The promises God made in the Old Testament are for His elect, the remnant of Israel.

As I said above, or in another thread recently, that verse is the key of understanding the mark of the beast. Two third of a whole is .666! Maybe later, more on this.

That is something you have forced upon the passages.

TMSO, that's the key of understanding OT prophecy...how do the NT apostles, who were Jews by nature, interpreted their own OT scriptures! First, Jacob has reference to the totality of the very elect, Jews and Gentiles, in bible prophecy.

To know that you have to understand the questions that they asked Jesus. They asked from their knowledge of the OT. They asked Him for signs of His return (which when you look at what the greek word is for return, it has nothign to do with a second coming, since they didn't know Jesus was leaving), and for signs of the complete end of the world (consummation of everything). The question they asked in Acts 1 was "will you now return the kingdom to Israel." The question in Matthew 24 was basically asking for signs when Jesus would be unveiled as king and would come into His kingdom in Israel. And, the Old Testament shows the world would end, so they wanted to know the signs of the ending. Jesus was on Earth, so that means there really wasn't anything left before everything would be wrapped up.

Luke 1:33​

“And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.”

Both the angle and Luke testify that the house of Jacob are the very elect of God's promises and oath.

The time of Jacob's trouble will happen during the little season of Revelation, etc. when the beast, (the antichrists' kingdoms of this world doing the will of Satan) will make war with the saints of God, and for a very short period of time, seemly will overcome them. Revelation 13, etc.

I'll give a quick brief overview of "my" understanding of this chapter. As you know, evil beasts are images in Scripture that often signify the carnal (fleshly), beastly, dangerous nature of man. It is sometimes used to signify evil Kingdoms or wicked carnal individuals.

I'll make another post to connect with this one.

The time of Jacob's trouble is the last 3 1/2 years of the 70th week, and yes, it is the beast, his image, the mark. The center point of the 70th week is when the Antichrist blasphemes God in God's own temple and proclaims himself to be God. He will put a stop to all religions, with only worship of himself on penalty of death. Satan's last ditch effort to overcome God. Part of that is to destroy God's promises in scripture by trying to destroy Israel.