Question on books of the bible dating

[TMSO]

It was the hearer's future when it was first written. That future would have been Christ's gospel event, and the end of the world was expected soon after, Rom 2, 2P3, and the Olivet material.

You are making your POV the guiding rule on how to read the OT. Not accepted.

That generation expected the end of the world right after the end of Jerusalem, but allowed for longer for three reasons.

But, but, Jesus said the same thing about the OT and how to read it. He read it Himself and then stated that what the people just heard is being fulfilled in their presence.

Luke 4: “The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me,
Because He anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor.
He has sent Me to proclaim release to the captives,
And recovery of sight to the blind,
To set free those who are oppressed,
19 To proclaim the favorable year of the Lord.”

What came up next?

"20 And He closed the [c]book, gave it back to the attendant and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on Him. 21 And He began to say to them, “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your [d]hearing.”"

Now here is how I understand the prophecy, and how I treat the rest of Old Testament prophecy. Was the Spirit of the Lord (Holy Spirit) upon Jesus? Was He anointed by the Father to preach the gospel to the poor? Was He sent by the Father to proclaim release to the captives? How about giving sight to the blind? How about freeing those who are oppressed, and proclaiming the favorable year of the Lord. Is that not a LITERAL telling of exactly who Jesus was on this Earth and what He was doing? There isn't any need to have someone interpret it for you. There is no need to interpret it. Even Jesus didn't interpret it. He just said that it has been fulfilled in their hearing. They knew what He had done and what He was doing.

Just how many prophecies of Jesus in the Old Testament required the EarlyActs treatment in order for anyone to realize that this was about Jesus? I mean, even the apostles in writing their gospels never once interpreted the prophecies, just stated it and said that it was now fulfilled. They didn't even have to say how. I mean "Out of Egypt I called out my Son" is kind of self explanatory. Same as "look upon Him whom they have pierced." The reason why the rest of the prophecy is not mentioned is because it wasn't being fulfilled. John was saying here is another prophecy of Jesus, and it shows that not only is Jesus here now as Messiah, in the future, He will save Israel. This is that guy, right here. Look, He was just pierced. Look at Him who is spoke of in Zechariah. He was pierced. That's Jesus. The actual prophecy is for the future, but that person in the prophecy is the one and only Jesus.

Again, if there was more to the Old Testament prophecy, John would have said so. They didn't hold back is bringing up fulfilled prophecies. But all of them were used simply to say, that prophecy pertains to Jesus.

The Holy Spirit descended upon Him as a dove at His baptism. The religious leaders saw the Holy Spirit in action and blasphemed Him. Jesus told them specifically that it was by the power of the Holy Spirit that He acted in casting out demons. He came to free the captives of sin. He literally gave sight to the blind. His gospel and His teachings freed the oppressed. He preached of the coming of the Kingdom of God that was at that time among them because the Prince/King was walking among them. This is not my POV. This isn't even Jesus point of view, though He brought the prophecy to the front to say, I'm this guy and I'm literally fulfilling this age old prophecy.

Jesus closed the scroll on this because He wasn't fulfilling the rest of the prophecy. That was for the future. The very next line should tell us that. Jesus didn't come to Earth the first time... for vengeance. John 3:17 tells us that. He came to save, and, as the prophecy states, to proclaim the favorable year of the Lord.

And the day of vengeance of our God;
To comfort all who mourn,
3 To grant those who mourn in Zion,
Giving them a garland instead of ashes,
The oil of gladness instead of mourning,
The mantle of praise instead of a spirit of fainting.
So they will be called [d]oaks of righteousness,
The planting of the Lord, that He may be glorified.

This is for the future. This was not fulfilled while Jesus was on Earth the first time.

 

[TMSO]

In John's narrative of the crucifixion, he is clearly quoting Z about the event before him, not popping in a remark about X000 years in the future to make you feel exhiliarated.

Zechariah 12 "
The [a]burden of the word of the Lord concerning Israel.

Thus declares the Lord who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him, 2 “Behold, I am going to make Jerusalem a cup [b]that causes reeling to all the peoples around; and when the siege is against Jerusalem, it will also be against Judah. 3 It will come about in that day that I will make Jerusalem a heavy stone for all the peoples; all who lift it will be severely [c]injured. And all the nations of the earth will be gathered against it. 4 In that day,” declares the Lord, “I will strike every horse with bewilderment and his rider with madness. But I will [d]watch over the house of Judah, while I strike every horse of the peoples with blindness. 5 Then the clans of Judah will say in their hearts, ‘[e]A strong support for us are the inhabitants of Jerusalem through the Lord of hosts, their God.’

6 “In that day I will make the clans of Judah like a firepot among pieces of wood and a flaming torch among sheaves, so they will consume on the right hand and on the left all the surrounding peoples, while the inhabitants of Jerusalem again dwell on their own sites in Jerusalem. 7 The Lord also will save the tents of Judah first, so that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem will not be magnified above Judah. 8 In that day the Lord will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and the one who [f]is feeble among them in that day will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the Lord before them. 9 And in that day I will [g]set about to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

10 “I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, [h]the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn. 11 In that day there will be great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the [i]plain of [j]Megiddo. 12 The land will mourn, every family by itself; the family of the house of David by itself and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself and their wives by themselves; 13 the family of the house of Levi by itself and their wives by themselves; the family of the Shimeites by itself and their wives by themselves; 14 all the families that remain, every family by itself and their wives by themselves."

In that day. In what day? The day God brings the world to attack Israel, and God saves the world. Then what happens? He pours out the Spirit of grace and of supplication upon Israel, and they mourn for Jesus, as one mounrs for an only son. I mean, this prophecy is pretty clear. What did John say about this prophecy? Nothing. He just said that in Jesus being crucified, He fulfilled being the One who was pierced.

37 And again another Scripture says, “They shall look on Him whom they pierced.”

That is all John says was fulfilled. That is it. Which means the rest of the prophecy was not fulfilled. Israel did not look upon Him whom they have pierced, and recognize Him so as to mourn Him as one mourns for their only son. That is the future. It hasn't even happened YET. Israel has not recognized Jesus as king and Messiah. They are still in open rebellion. What comes next, which clearly speaks to the fulfillment of the 70 weeks is:

Zechariah 13 “In that day a fountain will be opened for the house of David and for the inhabitants of Jerusalem, for sin and for impurity.

2 “It will come about in that day,” declares the Lord of hosts, “that I will cut off the names of the idols from the land, and they will no longer be remembered; and I will also remove the prophets and the unclean spirit from the land. 3 And if anyone still prophesies, then his father and mother who gave birth to him will say to him, ‘You shall not live, for you have spoken falsely in the name of the Lord’; and his father and mother who gave birth to him will pierce him through when he prophesies. 4 Also it will come about in that day that the prophets will each be ashamed of his vision when he prophesies, and they will not put on a hairy robe in order to deceive; 5 but he will say, ‘I am not a prophet; I am a tiller of the ground, for a man [a]sold me as a slave in my youth.’ 6 And one will say to him, ‘What are these wounds between your [b]arms?’ Then he will say, ‘Those with which I was wounded in the house of [c]my friends.’

That seems to speak directly to prophecy and visions being sealed up.

You last line needs to be examined. Dan 2 made it clear that the kingdom would come in the days of Rome, but, as Christ confirmed, not be like the previous. The stone that smashed everything and that dust becomes a mountain of the Lord. The NT confirms all this saying the kingdom had arrived. The enthronement (the Davidic event of Ps 2 and 110) was the resurrection of Christ. No mistaking at all.

If that stone is the kingdom that had arrived, Rome should have been obliterated. Daniel's vision is clear about that. It destroys the whole statue and becomes a mountain that fills the whole Earth. That is why the early church father's were saying that Rome is what was holding back Jesus' second coming. As long as Rome continued to survive, that statue continues to stand. Jesus had not come to condemn the world or take over, He came to save the world. That speaks of His first coming and His ministry. His second coming, He comes in destruction and judgment, as one can clearly see in Revelation 19. (As well as the end of the Olivet discourse.)

What you ridicule is actually what the apostles preached; the reign had arrived. That became an imperative message to all people.

If the reign has arrived, why is Jesus sitting at the right hand of the Father until the Father makes His enemies His footstool? Why hasn't the Son returned the Kingdom to the Father, as Paul says the Son will do once the final enemy has been destroyed? I mean, even Paul makes it clear that that is finality.

 

[TMSO]

Maybe if you asked questions instead of pasted what I have known for decades, you'd get somewhere.

After explaining that the promise of the Gospel was before the Law existed, Pauls says that someone was voiding and setting aside the promise. That would be the Judaism he grew up in. They were the replacement culprits. Their excitement about the Law was inverse to what should have been excitement about the promise of the Gospel to all nations. Jesus said in Mt 23 they were twice sons of hell for doing so.

The Law (as practiced by Judaism in Paul's time) did not replace a promise to the nations that already existed.

Could you present the verse, and that verse must speak ot what you say... word for word. Also consider this verse "37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’”"

When did this take place? AFTER the Triumphal Entry where they were saying "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!". So if they already did this, why is Jesus saying that they will not see Jesus until they say what they already said? Because they rejected Him. They never truly accepted Him as King. So they will not see Him until they truly say "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!" which comes from the Old Testament. As well as the King riding in on a foal. Jesus fulfilled all of that, but Jerusalem rejected Him in the end.

As for what Jesus had to say about the religious leaders: "23 Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, 2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; 3 therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them."

So, when the religious leaders teach the oracles of God, they are completely right in all they say. However, they do not do what they say, hence they are hypocrites. However, what they teach got the green light from Jesus. Why? Well, we aren't supposed to sin, and what the religious leaders were teaching was what not to do. That is, how not to be sinning against God. Again, they didn't listen to what they taugth, but they didn't lie either. So listen, do, and observe. The leaven of the pharisees and saducees are what they added by action and word. (Like their special rule book that taught exemptions to God given tradition, etc. Jesus told the disciples to beware of what the Pharisees and Saducees added to the unleavened bread recipe. (So to speak.)

 

[TMSO]

You really shouldn't talk when it is all colored by G Eliot. Her novel, which shreds the NT by the absence of it, and her scholarship on the life of Jesus, show total ignorance of what the NT says, and created the idea that the mistaken Judaic Messiah message was the 'organic' or 'traditional' belief of the Jews and they were entitled to it. They can have their land of course, but there is nothing of this that is in the NT theology. Eph 2-3. In case you haven't noticed, the % of Jews in this so-called miracle land which believe the apostles is something like 0.01 percent. Not quite the outpouring of the Spirit, which is always the feature of the restoration, and was cited in Acts 3.

Ah, but Zechariah (can't you tell I really love Zechariah) speaks of the 1/3 upon whom God will pour out His Spirit. So, if it was only .01 percent at the time of the first century, then obviously Zechariah was not yet fulfilled.

 

[TMSO]

The righteousness of God came in Christ, Rom 1, 3. That's what he was referring to and that's why there are not 2 atonements (Hebrews) and there will not be in the future. Rom 11 is clear at the end; God has shown mercy to all men now in Christ.

Why would you tell anyone that anyone believes there are two atonements? Why would you bear false witness of me and tell others that I believe such a thing? There is one plan of redemption. God started with the Jews. Even Jesus says this why He tells the Cushite woman that He was sent by the Father to the lost sheep of Israel. The reason Jesus praised her faith is because she rightly said that the dogs (Gentiles) eat of the crumbs that fall from the masters' (Israel/Jews) table. That is reflected when Paul says that salvation is first to the Jews, then the Gentiles. It is also focused in that the Jews are always said to be the natural branches, and the Gentiles are always said to be foreign branches. The Gentiles NEVER become natural branches of the tree. However, they are part of the tree, even as a foreign branch. Paul is just saying that the Jews have ALWAYS been part of the tree. Why? The chosen people of the Nation of Israel. God is going through and pruning out all who are not truly a part (not spiritually part of Israel), but that is because they were always part of the tree. (Figuratively speaking).

There are two parts to the plan of salvation. The first is dealing with God choosing the Nation of Israel for whom the Messiah and Savior of the world, both Jews and Gentiles) would come. He was first sent to the Jews (Israel), but they ultimately rejected Him, by which He came to the Gentiles. The Cushite woman was more right then she could know. So salvation was first to the Jews, then came to the Gentiles by way of Israel's rejection, and will come around again to Israel, where they will fulfill Jesus' prophecy, and they will see Him again when the say "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord." That is, they will see Him when they finally except Him as their King. And it is all part of the same program. They rejected, but in the end, they will accept Him.

There is one atonement in Christ. It came first to the Jews, as seen with the disciples and their receiving the Holy Spirit FIRST, and then the Gentiles, disciples of John the Baptist, and the Samaritans. If you are going to say that each and every one was a different program, then that makes at least four programs. They aren't programs. They are parts. Part I. The disciples are saved and later receive the Holy Spirit. Part II. The Jewish people receive the gospel on the day of Pentecost, and the church grew by about three thousand souls. Part III. Disciples of John the Baptist, saved by John's message but not the gospel. They believe and receive the Holy Spirit. Part IV. The Samaritans believe and receive the Holy Spirit. However, there is no mention of speaking in tongues... hmm... Part V. Peter goes to Cornelius. Gentiles receive the gospel message from Peter, and receive the Holy Spirit with speaking in tongues. Peter specifically highlights the similarity between the Gentiles receiving the Holy Spirit, and the disciples. He is so strongly set in how the Gentiles are part of the same salvation and church that he questions the Jews with him and asked who of them could/would forbid the Gentiles the waters of baptism, those who received the same Holy Spirit as them?

So began the history. The Jews ultimately (Nation of Israel) rejected the gospel, but the Gentiles received it openly. At this point, the gap of the 70 weeks is truly showing. It is now the time of the Gentiles receiving the gospel, and accepting, while the Nation of Israel sits in disobedience of rejection. There are INDIVIDUAL Jews who hear, believe and receive, but Israel sits under a partial blindness/hardening, until the fulness of the Gentiles has come in. This goes to Peter in II Peter who says that God is not willing that any of the elect should perish. Once God's will is fulfilled, then the final chapter opens and Israel will be saved. Using Zechariah, the elect of Israel at that time will be 1/3rd of Israel, while the other 2/3rds die.

"
“Awake, O sword, against My Shepherd,
And against the man, My Associate,”
Declares the Lord of hosts.
“Strike the Shepherd that the sheep may be scattered;
And I will turn My hand [d]against the little ones.
8 “It will come about in all the land,”
Declares the Lord,
“That two parts in it will be cut off and perish;
But the third will be left in it.
9 “And I will bring the third part through the fire,
Refine them as silver is refined,
And test them as gold is tested.
They will call on My name,
And I will answer them;
I will say, ‘They are My people,’
And they will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’”"

This speaks of the elect in Israel, which is kind of obvious. And this is not symbolic. If God says two thirds will be cut off, then two thirds will be cut off. If he says the one third that is left will be verse 9, then it will be one third. God doesn't mince words. He is exacting. This isn't speaking of Jerusalem, but of all the land. So the whole Nation of Israel. Two thirds will perish, while one third will be saved. That is, one third are elect of God.

 

[TMSO]

It does no good to break it down when you misuse the pronouns.

I did some research, and one of the commentaries say that using Jesus for the He is not supported by the actual text in the original language.

 

[TMSO]

He said that gen he was in would not pass away until seeing all these things. I'm afraid you can't or are unwilling to read it.

So what exactly did He say they would see? I read it, and already told you that if the elect is still here on Earth, then that generation did not see all these things.

So just what are "all these things"? I cut out a chunk of Matthew 24, but only due to space constraints. You can always look up the rest.

Perilous Times​

15 “Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. 17 [h]Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. 18 [i]Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. 21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22 Unless those days had been cut short, no [j]life would have been saved; but for the sake of the [k]elect those days will be cut short. 23 Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the [l]Christ,’ or ‘[m]There He is,’ do not believe him. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will [n]show great [o]signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the [p]elect. 25 Behold, I have told you in advance. 26 So if they say to you, ‘Behold, He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out, or, ‘Behold, He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe them. 27 For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 Wherever the corpse is, there the [q]vultures will gather.

The Glorious Return​

29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from [r]the sky, and the powers of [s]the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His [t]elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other."

It should be obvious that the whole part under "The Glorious Return" has not happened yet. I mean, if it has, then we are all going to hell because Jesus has already gathered all the elect over two millennia ago. This part falls under the "all these things". It also says "But immediately after the tribulation..." is when the Glorious Return occurs.

So you can't say I am out of order, note that this continues from verse 31 to verse 32, the beginning of the parable of the fig tree.

"32 “Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; 33 so, you too, when you see all these things, [u]recognize that [v]He is near, right at the [w]door. 34 Truly I say to you, this [x]generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. 37 For [y]the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and they did not [z]understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then there will be two men in the field; one [aa]will be taken and one [ab]will be left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the [ac]mill; one [ad]will be taken and one [ae]will be left"

Now that day and hour that no one knows but the Father, that is the second coming of Jesus and final judgment. Jesus is unable to answer the disciples questions about signs of this time, because Jesus doesn't know when it will be. All He can say is that it will be like the days of Noah. So no sign, other then life will be going on as normal, as in Noah's day (a shared experience of historical knowledge), and boom. Now judgment. The world has reached its end.

The timestamp, which is biological, is at Lk 23:28. Those babies at the crucifixion event would see the country decimated.

That isn't what Jesus is talking about. He answered the disciples questions, except He didn't give a when. He walked all the way to His second coming, which hasn't happened yet. And then He continued straight to the final judgment and the consummation of ALL THINGS. (That is what end of the age means in Greek. The English didn't really do a great job on it. It is the "complete end". The consummation of all the plot lines of Creation. The final episode of Creation. And it will be beyond epic. The next age is eternity. This temporal world will be gone.

 

[TMSO]

The idea that God has stopped trying to offer salvation to Jews is anti-semitic and ludicrous. Luther said Rom 11 was very clear: it would be great if they became Christians because they would be better at evangelism that many Gentiles.

It is also a straw man set up by you. God has partially blinded the nation of Israel to salvation and the gospel. That is what Paul says. Why partially blinded? There are individual Jews who will come to believe and be saved, but not many. The nation of Israel remains hardened against the gospel in their rejection of the Messiah. I find Paul to be rather clear in Romans about this, right down to the fact that I got the fact that Israel is partially hardened/blinded from Romans directly. The end of Paul's message is that by the obedience of the Gentiles to the gospel, Israel will find mercy, and thus all Israel will be saved. (The 1/3 that God refines as gold and purifies. The elect that remain with the Nation of Israel.)

The olive tree stands or falls by faith. Therefore it is not a race-nation. God was never doing race-nations. Many Gentile nations were being reached in the OT, parallel to Israel. God's nation, says the vineyard parable, is those who have faith, evangelize, and do the work of the vineyard. No race lines matter anymore, Jn 1.

Where are you getting this parable from. Paul didn't speak in parables. Paul spoke directly, but used figurative speech to explain a spiritual truth. He speaks of the tree with natural branches (Israel/Jews), and foreign branches (Gentiles). The natural branches always remained natural branches even if cut off. Why? They didn't become a different tree. They were still part of Israel, just separated from God by rebellion/rejection of Christ. As such, separated from the tree. The Gentile believers are grafted in their place. This is why Paul says it is easier to rip out the foreign branch, and reattach the natural branch, then it is to cut off the natural branch and graft in a foreign branch. Paul says this against the proud Gentiles who were looking down on the Jewish non-believers. Paul was telling them to stop being proud and to be humble, because God could more easily rip them out, and reattach a new Jewish believer back in place. The reason we have salvation at all is the Jews, and that is because that is how God planned it. That is the whole reason God chose Israel to be His people. It is through them that we have Christ. To trample on them is to trample on Christ. (I speak of the Jewish people as a whole, not individuals.) God is disciplining them, and pruning out those who reject Him and will never accept. Everything God does to Israel is said to be chastisement. Those God loves He chastises. He never rejected Israel, and never will. He is awaiting the day when He saves His elect from the Nation of Israel.

What you seem to be missing is that while in the church there is no difference, outside of the church, the differences still exist. You keep denying the reality of life outside of Christ and the church, where there remains an elect group of God's adopted children that have not yet been saved. Jew and Gentile exist there. Israel, under partial hardening, the Gentiles under the grace of God for obedience following the rejection of Israel. Once the fulness of the Gentiles comes in, God will deal with the NATION OF ISRAEL, and He will save His elect from her midst.

 

[EarlyActs]

Yet, while people misinterpreted what Jesus said and believed the end of the world was expected soon, that soon followed the meaning of at hand, not, in a few minutes or days. As God is obviously not done gathering in the elect, it obviously was never intended to mean the end of the world was the first or second century. To believe that is to make the same mistake as the religious leaders who told Herod where the "King of the Jews" was to be born, but did not believe that the King of the Jews was coming any times soon, and most certainly was not just born in Bethlehem. They believed it was long down the road, and, with no

Except that it was Jesus POV that had Him stop reading once He reached the point that was fulfilled. And then He directly told the people, what you have just heard is being fulfilled NOW. Why didn't He keep on reading if there was more? It is understood that anything He didn't read is not being fulfilled. Is He deceiving them, or was it just not yet fulfilled?

No. Again, why don't you believe God knows everything, and is somehow still undecided so it is only "allowed" for longer? Jesus already stated at His time that the Father already knows when the end will be. No one else knows (which would include us, which includes you) when Jesus WILL return. If He has already returned, then the world is already over. Even the Olivet Discourse makes that much clear.

"29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from [r]the sky, and the powers of [s]the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His [t]elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other."

If the elect are still here, and with some people I do question (that is sarcasm), then this has not happened. However, Jesus said that that generation would not pass away before they see this very thing happen. But they didn't. Which means Jesus didn't mean that generation as in first century Israel. He meant the generation of those who see and recognize the signs of His final coming. They would not pass away before it happens. Like with God's prophecy to Simeon, that he would not die until he saw the destruction of Israel, I mean, the redemption of Israel, which is Jesus Christ. If Jesus is their redemption, how is He their destruction.

Peter in 2 Peter 3 says "9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance."

If the Lord is not slow why are you saying that He is. To say that it was allowed to be longer then originally intended, means the Lord is slow. The problem is that that is the viewpoint of man. Don't count slowness as they do. It isn't slowness when God already knows exactly when the world will end, and knew since before the foundation of the world. That isn't slowness except in the view of those who don't have a clue. God is patient towards you. Who is you? The audience, the elect. God doesn't want any of the elect to perish, but that all the elect come to repentance. So even Peter knows that the end of everything hinges on God's will in regards to the elect. God isn't being slow.

One idea per post, please

The end of the world was certainly expected right after the destruction of Jerusalem. It's all through Paul's letters.

 

[EarlyActs]

Yet, while people misinterpreted what Jesus said and believed the end of the world was expected soon, that soon followed the meaning of at hand, not, in a few minutes or days. As God is obviously not done gathering in the elect, it obviously was never intended to mean the end of the world was the first or second century. To believe that is to make the same mistake as the religious leaders who told Herod where the "King of the Jews" was to be born, but did not believe that the King of the Jews was coming any times soon, and most certainly was not just born in Bethlehem. They believed it was long down the road, and, with no

Except that it was Jesus POV that had Him stop reading once He reached the point that was fulfilled. And then He directly told the people, what you have just heard is being fulfilled NOW. Why didn't He keep on reading if there was more? It is understood that anything He didn't read is not being fulfilled. Is He deceiving them, or was it just not yet fulfilled?

No. Again, why don't you believe God knows everything, and is somehow still undecided so it is only "allowed" for longer? Jesus already stated at His time that the Father already knows when the end will be. No one else knows (which would include us, which includes you) when Jesus WILL return. If He has already returned, then the world is already over. Even the Olivet Discourse makes that much clear.

"29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from [r]the sky, and the powers of [s]the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His [t]elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other."

If the elect are still here, and with some people I do question (that is sarcasm), then this has not happened. However, Jesus said that that generation would not pass away before they see this very thing happen. But they didn't. Which means Jesus didn't mean that generation as in first century Israel. He meant the generation of those who see and recognize the signs of His final coming. They would not pass away before it happens. Like with God's prophecy to Simeon, that he would not die until he saw the destruction of Israel, I mean, the redemption of Israel, which is Jesus Christ. If Jesus is their redemption, how is He their destruction.

Peter in 2 Peter 3 says "9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance."

If the Lord is not slow why are you saying that He is. To say that it was allowed to be longer then originally intended, means the Lord is slow. The problem is that that is the viewpoint of man. Don't count slowness as they do. It isn't slowness when God already knows exactly when the world will end, and knew since before the foundation of the world. That isn't slowness except in the view of those who don't have a clue. God is patient towards you. Who is you? The audience, the elect. God doesn't want any of the elect to perish, but that all the elect come to repentance. So even Peter knows that the end of everything hinges on God's will in regards to the elect. God isn't being slow.

re stoppage while reading Is 60
He doesn't think the way we do. He stopped because it was too horrifying to think about, but it was to happen right after the blessed news of the Gospel.

We cannot read with an 'omnicient' POV. It had direct meaning at that moment; that generation was to change or else. If there is not an immediate ultimatum, the threat of his words is hollow at that moment. You are deleting the seriousness of the drama of the moment. That is why he snapped at them in Acts 1: 'it is none of your business about a kingdom of Israel.'

You are reading the Bible as though every other line is 'but in X000 years something will happen that means none of this really matters.' You would never say that reading Acts 26, because they really were at risk of losing their country because they did not believe the limiting rule which Paul kept about their own prophets: that the suffering and preaching about Christ were all that is known about the prophets. That in itself limits Dan 9 to the 1st cent.

 

[EarlyActs]

But, but, Jesus said the same thing about the OT and how to read it. He read it Himself and then stated that what the people just heard is being fulfilled in their presence.

Luke 4: “The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me,
Because He anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor.
He has sent Me to proclaim release to the captives,
And recovery of sight to the blind,
To set free those who are oppressed,
19 To proclaim the favorable year of the Lord.”

What came up next?

"20 And He closed the [c]book, gave it back to the attendant and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on Him. 21 And He began to say to them, “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your [d]hearing.”"

Now here is how I understand the prophecy, and how I treat the rest of Old Testament prophecy. Was the Spirit of the Lord (Holy Spirit) upon Jesus? Was He anointed by the Father to preach the gospel to the poor? Was He sent by the Father to proclaim release to the captives? How about giving sight to the blind? How about freeing those who are oppressed, and proclaiming the favorable year of the Lord. Is that not a LITERAL telling of exactly who Jesus was on this Earth and what He was doing? There isn't any need to have someone interpret it for you. There is no need to interpret it. Even Jesus didn't interpret it. He just said that it has been fulfilled in their hearing. They knew what He had done and what He was doing.

Just how many prophecies of Jesus in the Old Testament required the EarlyActs treatment in order for anyone to realize that this was about Jesus? I mean, even the apostles in writing their gospels never once interpreted the prophecies, just stated it and said that it was now fulfilled. They didn't even have to say how. I mean "Out of Egypt I called out my Son" is kind of self explanatory. Same as "look upon Him whom they have pierced." The reason why the rest of the prophecy is not mentioned is because it wasn't being fulfilled. John was saying here is another prophecy of Jesus, and it shows that not only is Jesus here now as Messiah, in the future, He will save Israel. This is that guy, right here. Look, He was just pierced. Look at Him who is spoke of in Zechariah. He was pierced. That's Jesus. The actual prophecy is for the future, but that person in the prophecy is the one and only Jesus.

Again, if there was more to the Old Testament prophecy, John would have said so. They didn't hold back is bringing up fulfilled prophecies. But all of them were used simply to say, that prophecy pertains to Jesus.

The Holy Spirit descended upon Him as a dove at His baptism. The religious leaders saw the Holy Spirit in action and blasphemed Him. Jesus told them specifically that it was by the power of the Holy Spirit that He acted in casting out demons. He came to free the captives of sin. He literally gave sight to the blind. His gospel and His teachings freed the oppressed. He preached of the coming of the Kingdom of God that was at that time among them because the Prince/King was walking among them. This is not my POV. This isn't even Jesus point of view, though He brought the prophecy to the front to say, I'm this guy and I'm literally fulfilling this age old prophecy.

Jesus closed the scroll on this because He wasn't fulfilling the rest of the prophecy. That was for the future. The very next line should tell us that. Jesus didn't come to Earth the first time... for vengeance. John 3:17 tells us that. He came to save, and, as the prophecy states, to proclaim the favorable year of the Lord.

And the day of vengeance of our God;
To comfort all who mourn,
3 To grant those who mourn in Zion,
Giving them a garland instead of ashes,
The oil of gladness instead of mourning,
The mantle of praise instead of a spirit of fainting.
So they will be called [d]oaks of righteousness,
The planting of the Lord, that He may be glorified.

This is for the future. This was not fulfilled while Jesus was on Earth the first time.

Please keep posts short and too the point. I don't have time.

re 'they will look on him whom they pierced'
He uses that in John, at the Gospel event, the opposite of what you are saying.

They were not preoccupied with things X000 years in the future like you are now. The goal of interp is to be in their mind, not put them in your mind.

 

[EarlyActs]

But, but, Jesus said the same thing about the OT and how to read it. He read it Himself and then stated that what the people just heard is being fulfilled in their presence.

Luke 4: “The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me,
Because He anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor.
He has sent Me to proclaim release to the captives,
And recovery of sight to the blind,
To set free those who are oppressed,
19 To proclaim the favorable year of the Lord.”

What came up next?

"20 And He closed the [c]book, gave it back to the attendant and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on Him. 21 And He began to say to them, “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your [d]hearing.”"

Now here is how I understand the prophecy, and how I treat the rest of Old Testament prophecy. Was the Spirit of the Lord (Holy Spirit) upon Jesus? Was He anointed by the Father to preach the gospel to the poor? Was He sent by the Father to proclaim release to the captives? How about giving sight to the blind? How about freeing those who are oppressed, and proclaiming the favorable year of the Lord. Is that not a LITERAL telling of exactly who Jesus was on this Earth and what He was doing? There isn't any need to have someone interpret it for you. There is no need to interpret it. Even Jesus didn't interpret it. He just said that it has been fulfilled in their hearing. They knew what He had done and what He was doing.

Just how many prophecies of Jesus in the Old Testament required the EarlyActs treatment in order for anyone to realize that this was about Jesus? I mean, even the apostles in writing their gospels never once interpreted the prophecies, just stated it and said that it was now fulfilled. They didn't even have to say how. I mean "Out of Egypt I called out my Son" is kind of self explanatory. Same as "look upon Him whom they have pierced." The reason why the rest of the prophecy is not mentioned is because it wasn't being fulfilled. John was saying here is another prophecy of Jesus, and it shows that not only is Jesus here now as Messiah, in the future, He will save Israel. This is that guy, right here. Look, He was just pierced. Look at Him who is spoke of in Zechariah. He was pierced. That's Jesus. The actual prophecy is for the future, but that person in the prophecy is the one and only Jesus.

Again, if there was more to the Old Testament prophecy, John would have said so. They didn't hold back is bringing up fulfilled prophecies. But all of them were used simply to say, that prophecy pertains to Jesus.

The Holy Spirit descended upon Him as a dove at His baptism. The religious leaders saw the Holy Spirit in action and blasphemed Him. Jesus told them specifically that it was by the power of the Holy Spirit that He acted in casting out demons. He came to free the captives of sin. He literally gave sight to the blind. His gospel and His teachings freed the oppressed. He preached of the coming of the Kingdom of God that was at that time among them because the Prince/King was walking among them. This is not my POV. This isn't even Jesus point of view, though He brought the prophecy to the front to say, I'm this guy and I'm literally fulfilling this age old prophecy.

Jesus closed the scroll on this because He wasn't fulfilling the rest of the prophecy. That was for the future. The very next line should tell us that. Jesus didn't come to Earth the first time... for vengeance. John 3:17 tells us that. He came to save, and, as the prophecy states, to proclaim the favorable year of the Lord.

And the day of vengeance of our God;
To comfort all who mourn,
3 To grant those who mourn in Zion,
Giving them a garland instead of ashes,
The oil of gladness instead of mourning,
The mantle of praise instead of a spirit of fainting.
So they will be called [d]oaks of righteousness,
The planting of the Lord, that He may be glorified.

This is for the future. This was not fulfilled while Jesus was on Earth the first time.

re pretend simplicism
They were taught 40 days not to use the OT the way Judaism did; cp Jn 12:34. The best Judaism had was called 'darkness' and he was calling himself 'light.' This had to be undone. The disciples were as stuck on a 'kingdom of Israel' as you are, in Acts 1.

 

[EarlyActs]

But, but, Jesus said the same thing about the OT and how to read it. He read it Himself and then stated that what the people just heard is being fulfilled in their presence.

Luke 4: “The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me,
Because He anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor.
He has sent Me to proclaim release to the captives,
And recovery of sight to the blind,
To set free those who are oppressed,
19 To proclaim the favorable year of the Lord.”

What came up next?

"20 And He closed the [c]book, gave it back to the attendant and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on Him. 21 And He began to say to them, “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your [d]hearing.”"

Now here is how I understand the prophecy, and how I treat the rest of Old Testament prophecy. Was the Spirit of the Lord (Holy Spirit) upon Jesus? Was He anointed by the Father to preach the gospel to the poor? Was He sent by the Father to proclaim release to the captives? How about giving sight to the blind? How about freeing those who are oppressed, and proclaiming the favorable year of the Lord. Is that not a LITERAL telling of exactly who Jesus was on this Earth and what He was doing? There isn't any need to have someone interpret it for you. There is no need to interpret it. Even Jesus didn't interpret it. He just said that it has been fulfilled in their hearing. They knew what He had done and what He was doing.

Just how many prophecies of Jesus in the Old Testament required the EarlyActs treatment in order for anyone to realize that this was about Jesus? I mean, even the apostles in writing their gospels never once interpreted the prophecies, just stated it and said that it was now fulfilled. They didn't even have to say how. I mean "Out of Egypt I called out my Son" is kind of self explanatory. Same as "look upon Him whom they have pierced." The reason why the rest of the prophecy is not mentioned is because it wasn't being fulfilled. John was saying here is another prophecy of Jesus, and it shows that not only is Jesus here now as Messiah, in the future, He will save Israel. This is that guy, right here. Look, He was just pierced. Look at Him who is spoke of in Zechariah. He was pierced. That's Jesus. The actual prophecy is for the future, but that person in the prophecy is the one and only Jesus.

Again, if there was more to the Old Testament prophecy, John would have said so. They didn't hold back is bringing up fulfilled prophecies. But all of them were used simply to say, that prophecy pertains to Jesus.

The Holy Spirit descended upon Him as a dove at His baptism. The religious leaders saw the Holy Spirit in action and blasphemed Him. Jesus told them specifically that it was by the power of the Holy Spirit that He acted in casting out demons. He came to free the captives of sin. He literally gave sight to the blind. His gospel and His teachings freed the oppressed. He preached of the coming of the Kingdom of God that was at that time among them because the Prince/King was walking among them. This is not my POV. This isn't even Jesus point of view, though He brought the prophecy to the front to say, I'm this guy and I'm literally fulfilling this age old prophecy.

Jesus closed the scroll on this because He wasn't fulfilling the rest of the prophecy. That was for the future. The very next line should tell us that. Jesus didn't come to Earth the first time... for vengeance. John 3:17 tells us that. He came to save, and, as the prophecy states, to proclaim the favorable year of the Lord.

And the day of vengeance of our God;
To comfort all who mourn,
3 To grant those who mourn in Zion,
Giving them a garland instead of ashes,
The oil of gladness instead of mourning,
The mantle of praise instead of a spirit of fainting.
So they will be called [d]oaks of righteousness,
The planting of the Lord, that He may be glorified.

This is for the future. This was not fulfilled while Jesus was on Earth the first time.

re the 'future.'
The future was the end of that decisive generation. You are jumping X000 years and by referencing modern 1948 Israel, you are doing that very badly and contradictorily. The timestamp of Lk 23:28 is biological: the thing would happen at the end of that generation as a consequence for not being missionaries of the Gospel. It did.

 

[EarlyActs]

Zechariah 12 "
The [a]burden of the word of the Lord concerning Israel.

Thus declares the Lord who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him, 2 “Behold, I am going to make Jerusalem a cup [b]that causes reeling to all the peoples around; and when the siege is against Jerusalem, it will also be against Judah. 3 It will come about in that day that I will make Jerusalem a heavy stone for all the peoples; all who lift it will be severely [c]injured. And all the nations of the earth will be gathered against it. 4 In that day,” declares the Lord, “I will strike every horse with bewilderment and his rider with madness. But I will [d]watch over the house of Judah, while I strike every horse of the peoples with blindness. 5 Then the clans of Judah will say in their hearts, ‘[e]A strong support for us are the inhabitants of Jerusalem through the Lord of hosts, their God.’

6 “In that day I will make the clans of Judah like a firepot among pieces of wood and a flaming torch among sheaves, so they will consume on the right hand and on the left all the surrounding peoples, while the inhabitants of Jerusalem again dwell on their own sites in Jerusalem. 7 The Lord also will save the tents of Judah first, so that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem will not be magnified above Judah. 8 In that day the Lord will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and the one who [f]is feeble among them in that day will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the Lord before them. 9 And in that day I will [g]set about to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

10 “I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, [h]the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn. 11 In that day there will be great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the [i]plain of [j]Megiddo. 12 The land will mourn, every family by itself; the family of the house of David by itself and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself and their wives by themselves; 13 the family of the house of Levi by itself and their wives by themselves; the family of the Shimeites by itself and their wives by themselves; 14 all the families that remain, every family by itself and their wives by themselves."

In that day. In what day? The day God brings the world to attack Israel, and God saves the world. Then what happens? He pours out the Spirit of grace and of supplication upon Israel, and they mourn for Jesus, as one mounrs for an only son. I mean, this prophecy is pretty clear. What did John say about this prophecy? Nothing. He just said that in Jesus being crucified, He fulfilled being the One who was pierced.

37 And again another Scripture says, “They shall look on Him whom they pierced.”

That is all John says was fulfilled. That is it. Which means the rest of the prophecy was not fulfilled. Israel did not look upon Him whom they have pierced, and recognize Him so as to mourn Him as one mourns for their only son. That is the future. It hasn't even happened YET. Israel has not recognized Jesus as king and Messiah. They are still in open rebellion. What comes next, which clearly speaks to the fulfillment of the 70 weeks is:

Zechariah 13 “In that day a fountain will be opened for the house of David and for the inhabitants of Jerusalem, for sin and for impurity.

2 “It will come about in that day,” declares the Lord of hosts, “that I will cut off the names of the idols from the land, and they will no longer be remembered; and I will also remove the prophets and the unclean spirit from the land. 3 And if anyone still prophesies, then his father and mother who gave birth to him will say to him, ‘You shall not live, for you have spoken falsely in the name of the Lord’; and his father and mother who gave birth to him will pierce him through when he prophesies. 4 Also it will come about in that day that the prophets will each be ashamed of his vision when he prophesies, and they will not put on a hairy robe in order to deceive; 5 but he will say, ‘I am not a prophet; I am a tiller of the ground, for a man [a]sold me as a slave in my youth.’ 6 And one will say to him, ‘What are these wounds between your [b]arms?’ Then he will say, ‘Those with which I was wounded in the house of [c]my friends.’

That seems to speak directly to prophecy and visions being sealed up.



If that stone is the kingdom that had arrived, Rome should have been obliterated. Daniel's vision is clear about that. It destroys the whole statue and becomes a mountain that fills the whole Earth. That is why the early church father's were saying that Rome is what was holding back Jesus' second coming. As long as Rome continued to survive, that statue continues to stand. Jesus had not come to condemn the world or take over, He came to save the world. That speaks of His first coming and His ministry. His second coming, He comes in destruction and judgment, as one can clearly see in Revelation 19. (As well as the end of the Olivet discourse.)

If the reign has arrived, why is Jesus sitting at the right hand of the Father until the Father makes His enemies His footstool? Why hasn't the Son returned the Kingdom to the Father, as Paul says the Son will do once the final enemy has been destroyed? I mean, even Paul makes it clear that that is finality.

re an attack on Israel
The passage is about Christ and his suffering and being preached among the nations. That is why that's all Paul would say about, Acts 26. The future beyond that is none of our business, but the prophecy experts make it theirs. How ridiculous is that.

 

[EarlyActs]

Zechariah 12 "
The [a]burden of the word of the Lord concerning Israel.

Thus declares the Lord who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him, 2 “Behold, I am going to make Jerusalem a cup [b]that causes reeling to all the peoples around; and when the siege is against Jerusalem, it will also be against Judah. 3 It will come about in that day that I will make Jerusalem a heavy stone for all the peoples; all who lift it will be severely [c]injured. And all the nations of the earth will be gathered against it. 4 In that day,” declares the Lord, “I will strike every horse with bewilderment and his rider with madness. But I will [d]watch over the house of Judah, while I strike every horse of the peoples with blindness. 5 Then the clans of Judah will say in their hearts, ‘[e]A strong support for us are the inhabitants of Jerusalem through the Lord of hosts, their God.’

6 “In that day I will make the clans of Judah like a firepot among pieces of wood and a flaming torch among sheaves, so they will consume on the right hand and on the left all the surrounding peoples, while the inhabitants of Jerusalem again dwell on their own sites in Jerusalem. 7 The Lord also will save the tents of Judah first, so that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem will not be magnified above Judah. 8 In that day the Lord will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and the one who [f]is feeble among them in that day will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the Lord before them. 9 And in that day I will [g]set about to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

10 “I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, [h]the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn. 11 In that day there will be great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the [i]plain of [j]Megiddo. 12 The land will mourn, every family by itself; the family of the house of David by itself and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself and their wives by themselves; 13 the family of the house of Levi by itself and their wives by themselves; the family of the Shimeites by itself and their wives by themselves; 14 all the families that remain, every family by itself and their wives by themselves."

In that day. In what day? The day God brings the world to attack Israel, and God saves the world. Then what happens? He pours out the Spirit of grace and of supplication upon Israel, and they mourn for Jesus, as one mounrs for an only son. I mean, this prophecy is pretty clear. What did John say about this prophecy? Nothing. He just said that in Jesus being crucified, He fulfilled being the One who was pierced.

37 And again another Scripture says, “They shall look on Him whom they pierced.”

That is all John says was fulfilled. That is it. Which means the rest of the prophecy was not fulfilled. Israel did not look upon Him whom they have pierced, and recognize Him so as to mourn Him as one mourns for their only son. That is the future. It hasn't even happened YET. Israel has not recognized Jesus as king and Messiah. They are still in open rebellion. What comes next, which clearly speaks to the fulfillment of the 70 weeks is:

Zechariah 13 “In that day a fountain will be opened for the house of David and for the inhabitants of Jerusalem, for sin and for impurity.

2 “It will come about in that day,” declares the Lord of hosts, “that I will cut off the names of the idols from the land, and they will no longer be remembered; and I will also remove the prophets and the unclean spirit from the land. 3 And if anyone still prophesies, then his father and mother who gave birth to him will say to him, ‘You shall not live, for you have spoken falsely in the name of the Lord’; and his father and mother who gave birth to him will pierce him through when he prophesies. 4 Also it will come about in that day that the prophets will each be ashamed of his vision when he prophesies, and they will not put on a hairy robe in order to deceive; 5 but he will say, ‘I am not a prophet; I am a tiller of the ground, for a man [a]sold me as a slave in my youth.’ 6 And one will say to him, ‘What are these wounds between your [b]arms?’ Then he will say, ‘Those with which I was wounded in the house of [c]my friends.’

That seems to speak directly to prophecy and visions being sealed up.



If that stone is the kingdom that had arrived, Rome should have been obliterated. Daniel's vision is clear about that. It destroys the whole statue and becomes a mountain that fills the whole Earth. That is why the early church father's were saying that Rome is what was holding back Jesus' second coming. As long as Rome continued to survive, that statue continues to stand. Jesus had not come to condemn the world or take over, He came to save the world. That speaks of His first coming and His ministry. His second coming, He comes in destruction and judgment, as one can clearly see in Revelation 19. (As well as the end of the Olivet discourse.)

If the reign has arrived, why is Jesus sitting at the right hand of the Father until the Father makes His enemies His footstool? Why hasn't the Son returned the Kingdom to the Father, as Paul says the Son will do once the final enemy has been destroyed? I mean, even Paul makes it clear that that is finality.

You write as though I was the one who needed to know what was meant to be read as completed in Christ. You may need to back up and see who is saying what.

 

[EarlyActs]

Zechariah 12 "
The [a]burden of the word of the Lord concerning Israel.

Thus declares the Lord who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him, 2 “Behold, I am going to make Jerusalem a cup [b]that causes reeling to all the peoples around; and when the siege is against Jerusalem, it will also be against Judah. 3 It will come about in that day that I will make Jerusalem a heavy stone for all the peoples; all who lift it will be severely [c]injured. And all the nations of the earth will be gathered against it. 4 In that day,” declares the Lord, “I will strike every horse with bewilderment and his rider with madness. But I will [d]watch over the house of Judah, while I strike every horse of the peoples with blindness. 5 Then the clans of Judah will say in their hearts, ‘[e]A strong support for us are the inhabitants of Jerusalem through the Lord of hosts, their God.’

6 “In that day I will make the clans of Judah like a firepot among pieces of wood and a flaming torch among sheaves, so they will consume on the right hand and on the left all the surrounding peoples, while the inhabitants of Jerusalem again dwell on their own sites in Jerusalem. 7 The Lord also will save the tents of Judah first, so that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem will not be magnified above Judah. 8 In that day the Lord will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and the one who [f]is feeble among them in that day will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the Lord before them. 9 And in that day I will [g]set about to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

10 “I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, [h]the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn. 11 In that day there will be great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the [i]plain of [j]Megiddo. 12 The land will mourn, every family by itself; the family of the house of David by itself and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself and their wives by themselves; 13 the family of the house of Levi by itself and their wives by themselves; the family of the Shimeites by itself and their wives by themselves; 14 all the families that remain, every family by itself and their wives by themselves."

In that day. In what day? The day God brings the world to attack Israel, and God saves the world. Then what happens? He pours out the Spirit of grace and of supplication upon Israel, and they mourn for Jesus, as one mounrs for an only son. I mean, this prophecy is pretty clear. What did John say about this prophecy? Nothing. He just said that in Jesus being crucified, He fulfilled being the One who was pierced.

37 And again another Scripture says, “They shall look on Him whom they pierced.”

That is all John says was fulfilled. That is it. Which means the rest of the prophecy was not fulfilled. Israel did not look upon Him whom they have pierced, and recognize Him so as to mourn Him as one mourns for their only son. That is the future. It hasn't even happened YET. Israel has not recognized Jesus as king and Messiah. They are still in open rebellion. What comes next, which clearly speaks to the fulfillment of the 70 weeks is:

Zechariah 13 “In that day a fountain will be opened for the house of David and for the inhabitants of Jerusalem, for sin and for impurity.

2 “It will come about in that day,” declares the Lord of hosts, “that I will cut off the names of the idols from the land, and they will no longer be remembered; and I will also remove the prophets and the unclean spirit from the land. 3 And if anyone still prophesies, then his father and mother who gave birth to him will say to him, ‘You shall not live, for you have spoken falsely in the name of the Lord’; and his father and mother who gave birth to him will pierce him through when he prophesies. 4 Also it will come about in that day that the prophets will each be ashamed of his vision when he prophesies, and they will not put on a hairy robe in order to deceive; 5 but he will say, ‘I am not a prophet; I am a tiller of the ground, for a man [a]sold me as a slave in my youth.’ 6 And one will say to him, ‘What are these wounds between your [b]arms?’ Then he will say, ‘Those with which I was wounded in the house of [c]my friends.’

That seems to speak directly to prophecy and visions being sealed up.



If that stone is the kingdom that had arrived, Rome should have been obliterated. Daniel's vision is clear about that. It destroys the whole statue and becomes a mountain that fills the whole Earth. That is why the early church father's were saying that Rome is what was holding back Jesus' second coming. As long as Rome continued to survive, that statue continues to stand. Jesus had not come to condemn the world or take over, He came to save the world. That speaks of His first coming and His ministry. His second coming, He comes in destruction and judgment, as one can clearly see in Revelation 19. (As well as the end of the Olivet discourse.)

If the reign has arrived, why is Jesus sitting at the right hand of the Father until the Father makes His enemies His footstool? Why hasn't the Son returned the Kingdom to the Father, as Paul says the Son will do once the final enemy has been destroyed? I mean, even Paul makes it clear that that is finality.

re obliterated
Here you are going against the text and reading the OT in the literalism of 1st cent Judaism. It does not mean Rome gets obliterated. 'render to Caesar what is Caesar's; to God what is Gods' This humiliates the theology of Rome and says Christ gets the glory and honor, which stung Rome badly.

The kingdom exists in the imperative sense of Ps 2 and 110: God has honored Christ in the resurrection and all people must honor him. That is why 'you will not see it come with outward manifestation.' You seriously need to take some notes on the nature of the kingdom in Jesus/NT.

 

[EarlyActs]

Zechariah 12 "
The [a]burden of the word of the Lord concerning Israel.

Thus declares the Lord who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him, 2 “Behold, I am going to make Jerusalem a cup [b]that causes reeling to all the peoples around; and when the siege is against Jerusalem, it will also be against Judah. 3 It will come about in that day that I will make Jerusalem a heavy stone for all the peoples; all who lift it will be severely [c]injured. And all the nations of the earth will be gathered against it. 4 In that day,” declares the Lord, “I will strike every horse with bewilderment and his rider with madness. But I will [d]watch over the house of Judah, while I strike every horse of the peoples with blindness. 5 Then the clans of Judah will say in their hearts, ‘[e]A strong support for us are the inhabitants of Jerusalem through the Lord of hosts, their God.’

6 “In that day I will make the clans of Judah like a firepot among pieces of wood and a flaming torch among sheaves, so they will consume on the right hand and on the left all the surrounding peoples, while the inhabitants of Jerusalem again dwell on their own sites in Jerusalem. 7 The Lord also will save the tents of Judah first, so that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem will not be magnified above Judah. 8 In that day the Lord will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and the one who [f]is feeble among them in that day will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the Lord before them. 9 And in that day I will [g]set about to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

10 “I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, [h]the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn. 11 In that day there will be great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the [i]plain of [j]Megiddo. 12 The land will mourn, every family by itself; the family of the house of David by itself and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself and their wives by themselves; 13 the family of the house of Levi by itself and their wives by themselves; the family of the Shimeites by itself and their wives by themselves; 14 all the families that remain, every family by itself and their wives by themselves."

In that day. In what day? The day God brings the world to attack Israel, and God saves the world. Then what happens? He pours out the Spirit of grace and of supplication upon Israel, and they mourn for Jesus, as one mounrs for an only son. I mean, this prophecy is pretty clear. What did John say about this prophecy? Nothing. He just said that in Jesus being crucified, He fulfilled being the One who was pierced.

37 And again another Scripture says, “They shall look on Him whom they pierced.”

That is all John says was fulfilled. That is it. Which means the rest of the prophecy was not fulfilled. Israel did not look upon Him whom they have pierced, and recognize Him so as to mourn Him as one mourns for their only son. That is the future. It hasn't even happened YET. Israel has not recognized Jesus as king and Messiah. They are still in open rebellion. What comes next, which clearly speaks to the fulfillment of the 70 weeks is:

Zechariah 13 “In that day a fountain will be opened for the house of David and for the inhabitants of Jerusalem, for sin and for impurity.

2 “It will come about in that day,” declares the Lord of hosts, “that I will cut off the names of the idols from the land, and they will no longer be remembered; and I will also remove the prophets and the unclean spirit from the land. 3 And if anyone still prophesies, then his father and mother who gave birth to him will say to him, ‘You shall not live, for you have spoken falsely in the name of the Lord’; and his father and mother who gave birth to him will pierce him through when he prophesies. 4 Also it will come about in that day that the prophets will each be ashamed of his vision when he prophesies, and they will not put on a hairy robe in order to deceive; 5 but he will say, ‘I am not a prophet; I am a tiller of the ground, for a man [a]sold me as a slave in my youth.’ 6 And one will say to him, ‘What are these wounds between your [b]arms?’ Then he will say, ‘Those with which I was wounded in the house of [c]my friends.’

That seems to speak directly to prophecy and visions being sealed up.



If that stone is the kingdom that had arrived, Rome should have been obliterated. Daniel's vision is clear about that. It destroys the whole statue and becomes a mountain that fills the whole Earth. That is why the early church father's were saying that Rome is what was holding back Jesus' second coming. As long as Rome continued to survive, that statue continues to stand. Jesus had not come to condemn the world or take over, He came to save the world. That speaks of His first coming and His ministry. His second coming, He comes in destruction and judgment, as one can clearly see in Revelation 19. (As well as the end of the Olivet discourse.)

If the reign has arrived, why is Jesus sitting at the right hand of the Father until the Father makes His enemies His footstool? Why hasn't the Son returned the Kingdom to the Father, as Paul says the Son will do once the final enemy has been destroyed? I mean, even Paul makes it clear that that is finality.

re your paragraph "if that stone..."
Sorry but the whole paragraph is ridiculous. He said that His words condemn a person already in Jn 12. You have fallen for simplistic literalism and not the NT meaning.

Even the vision of Dan 2 is lost by what you are doing. He meant that another KIND of kingdom would come and be active; that God would humiliate all of earth's rulers even though their rule is needed. The 'dust' created by that idea, by the enthroned King Christ, has created a mountain of the Lord where all can come and fellowship.

The delay is explained above: to save people, 2P3.

If you don't pay closer attention, I will have to stop completely. Write less, observe more.

But to get started, learn the biological timestamp of Lk 23:28.

 

[EarlyActs]

Could you present the verse, and that verse must speak ot what you say... word for word. Also consider this verse "37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’”"

When did this take place? AFTER the Triumphal Entry where they were saying "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!". So if they already did this, why is Jesus saying that they will not see Jesus until they say what they already said? Because they rejected Him. They never truly accepted Him as King. So they will not see Him until they truly say "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!" which comes from the Old Testament. As well as the King riding in on a foal. Jesus fulfilled all of that, but Jerusalem rejected Him in the end.

As for what Jesus had to say about the religious leaders: "23 Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, 2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; 3 therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them."

So, when the religious leaders teach the oracles of God, they are completely right in all they say. However, they do not do what they say, hence they are hypocrites. However, what they teach got the green light from Jesus. Why? Well, we aren't supposed to sin, and what the religious leaders were teaching was what not to do. That is, how not to be sinning against God. Again, they didn't listen to what they taugth, but they didn't lie either. So listen, do, and observe. The leaven of the pharisees and saducees are what they added by action and word. (Like their special rule book that taught exemptions to God given tradition, etc. Jesus told the disciples to beware of what the Pharisees and Saducees added to the unleavened bread recipe. (So to speak.)

In Gal 3:16, you simply have to ask 'who was voiding and setting aside the Promise?' It was 1st cent. Judaism, as Paul was raised.

I can tell from these many notes that you spend far too much time in modern times trying to figure out when Israel gets a kingdom than in the past (the NT setting) and what was going on there.

Gal 3:16 speaks directly to Judaism replacing the Promise with the Law. The Promise was the Gospel and for all nations, and never should have been demoted. JUdaizers did that.

 

[EarlyActs]

Could you present the verse, and that verse must speak ot what you say... word for word. Also consider this verse "37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’”"

When did this take place? AFTER the Triumphal Entry where they were saying "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!". So if they already did this, why is Jesus saying that they will not see Jesus until they say what they already said? Because they rejected Him. They never truly accepted Him as King. So they will not see Him until they truly say "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!" which comes from the Old Testament. As well as the King riding in on a foal. Jesus fulfilled all of that, but Jerusalem rejected Him in the end.

As for what Jesus had to say about the religious leaders: "23 Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, 2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; 3 therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them."

So, when the religious leaders teach the oracles of God, they are completely right in all they say. However, they do not do what they say, hence they are hypocrites. However, what they teach got the green light from Jesus. Why? Well, we aren't supposed to sin, and what the religious leaders were teaching was what not to do. That is, how not to be sinning against God. Again, they didn't listen to what they taugth, but they didn't lie either. So listen, do, and observe. The leaven of the pharisees and saducees are what they added by action and word. (Like their special rule book that taught exemptions to God given tradition, etc. Jesus told the disciples to beware of what the Pharisees and Saducees added to the unleavened bread recipe. (So to speak.)

You are reading 'blessed is he...' as if it were a prophecy instead of a condemnation. The people who say it are blessed in the gospel; those who don't are condemned and would be ruined in that generation.

If you would take the 1st century events seriously, as the dramatic problem being faced at that time in that generation, much of the NT would make sense. It would not be a prediction puzzle: when does this happen, when does that, when does Israel get a government type kingdom in its land, etc etc, all of which are misguided questions.

"Misguided" specifically means that we have built-in an assumption we think is true, instead of asking if that assumption is true. That's what I ask you to do.

Have you observed the biological timestamp of Lk 23:28? The babies at that time would see 'fall on us to protect us from the coming wrath' take place, when they were adults.

 

[EarlyActs]

Could you present the verse, and that verse must speak ot what you say... word for word. Also consider this verse "37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’”"

When did this take place? AFTER the Triumphal Entry where they were saying "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!". So if they already did this, why is Jesus saying that they will not see Jesus until they say what they already said? Because they rejected Him. They never truly accepted Him as King. So they will not see Him until they truly say "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!" which comes from the Old Testament. As well as the King riding in on a foal. Jesus fulfilled all of that, but Jerusalem rejected Him in the end.

As for what Jesus had to say about the religious leaders: "23 Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, 2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; 3 therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them."

So, when the religious leaders teach the oracles of God, they are completely right in all they say. However, they do not do what they say, hence they are hypocrites. However, what they teach got the green light from Jesus. Why? Well, we aren't supposed to sin, and what the religious leaders were teaching was what not to do. That is, how not to be sinning against God. Again, they didn't listen to what they taugth, but they didn't lie either. So listen, do, and observe. The leaven of the pharisees and saducees are what they added by action and word. (Like their special rule book that taught exemptions to God given tradition, etc. Jesus told the disciples to beware of what the Pharisees and Saducees added to the unleavened bread recipe. (So to speak.)

re don't do acc to their deeds
what does this have to do with any of our discussion? It is an ethical talk, and quite aside. Maybe you missed the line about 'twice as much sons of hell' about the missionaries of Judaism further in?