Question on books of the bible dating

[EarlyActs]

You are right. That is because Jesus has nothing to do with the covenant in the 70 weeks prophecy. The one who makes the covenant VIOLATES the covenant. Your Jesus may break covenants, but even God made it a point to say in the Old Testament that it didn't matter what Israel did, He would not be the one to break the covenant. It was even prophesied. No matter how many times Israel violated the covenant, God took them back. Even the 70 weeks shows that God never rescinds the calling, as Paul says the calling cannot be rescinded.

It is true, God has never broken the promise of the Gospel. Judaism replaced it, says Gal 3:16.

The text is saying the strengthening or confirming work of the covenant took 7 weeks. That's different from an imagined 7 week antichrist covenant. The pronoun that strengthens it is Messiah.

God does not rescind his calling of the Gospel, but the race-nation is another question. The part of the race-nation that did not believe, says Acts 3, would be humiliatingly disinherited; hard to top that, as expressions go. This happened in the destruction.

 

[EarlyActs]

Actually Jesus is very clear that there are Judaic events. The time of Jacob's trouble. The Great Tribulation (same thing). Jesus speaks of it specifically, and says as soon as it ends, He returns. "29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from [r]the sky, and the powers of [s]the heavens will be shaken." Immediately after the Great Tribulation, Jesus returns and gathers in His elect. " 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His [t]elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other."

Israel was to be gathered again into their land, and that was 1948. There is yet a tribulation that would remove all flesh from Earth, that has not yet happened. (I'm pretty sure there would be no one around with Earth: population 0.)

Best if you asked questions about the role of Eliot, because there's a lot you don't understand. There is nothing about 1948 that matches the OT vision--if it was to be taken in an ordinary sense.

 

[EarlyActs]

Actually Jesus is very clear that there are Judaic events. The time of Jacob's trouble. The Great Tribulation (same thing). Jesus speaks of it specifically, and says as soon as it ends, He returns. "29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from [r]the sky, and the powers of [s]the heavens will be shaken." Immediately after the Great Tribulation, Jesus returns and gathers in His elect. " 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His [t]elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other."

Israel was to be gathered again into their land, and that was 1948. There is yet a tribulation that would remove all flesh from Earth, that has not yet happened. (I'm pretty sure there would be no one around with Earth: population 0.)

He meant very clear Judaic events in the 1st century, and the language shows that. Lots of evidence shows that he meant that generation and that land.

There is no need to take the time pasting verses when they don't inherently mean what you think they mean. I have a master's and 3 decades on this since, but only 1 book.

 

[EarlyActs]

Say your not a Calvinist without saying you aren't a Calvinist. An allowance? As though God the Father has no clue when the world is going to end because He hasn't decided? Jesus is clear. The Father knows EXACTLY when the world will end. A determinist knows the Father knows this. There is no delay. Even Peter said there is no delay, because God does not view the world/time as we do.

You keep forgetting the parable of the fig tree, and you forget that Jesus said that ALL that came before the fig tree would be accomplished, including the gathering of ALL the elect from the Earth. If what you are saying is true, then you can't be elect. I can't be elect. There can be no elect left.

Matthew 24"29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from [r]the sky, and the powers of [s]the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His [t]elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other."

"32 “Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; 33 so, you too, when you see all these things, [u]recognize that [v]He is near, right at the [w]door. 34 Truly I say to you, this [x]generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away."

When you see all these things. THIS GENERATION will not pass away. That is, the generation that sees the signs and recognizes that Jesus second coming is right at the door. They will see Jesus second coming, all the tribes of the Earth mourning at Jesus return, and the collection of His people from the four winds by His angels.

There is one program with two parts. Two tracts. The lost sheep of the house of Israel, and another flock. Spoke of... separately. What you don't seem to understand about the 70 weeks prophecy is that it deals solely...SOLELY...SOLELY with Israel. That is what God specifically states to Daniel. 70 weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city. This prophecy has NOTHING to do with Gentiles. A Gentile is involved, however, the prophecy was decreed for Israel. The end of the prophecy is the end of the transgression, sin, the bringing in of everlasting righteousness, the sealing up of prophecy, etc. So please tell me, where is the everlasting righteousness in Israel? Where is the end of the transgression and sin? Where are there prophets being attacked by their families? At what time did the whole world see Jesus return and mourn over Him, as He gathered up all His elect?

The mistake with the 70 weeks is to believe that Jesus didn't come the first time to die for sin, and would return again to set up His earthly kingdom in Israel. The mistake is believing that Israel didn't reject Jesus, and thus the focus of history moved to the Gentiles, as Paul specifically states in Romans. And Paul also speaks of it shifting back to Israel after the fulness of the Gentiles has come in. That will be the 70th week. Satan will have his last chance to destroy Israel, and Jesus Himself (Rev 19) will come and save Israel. And then Zechariah will be fulfilled.

There is no everlasting righteousness possible in any human; only in Christ. All 6 of those phrases are true in Christ, and Hebrews uses most of them.

The problem with your addressing two parts is that Eph 2-3 says they are now entirely unified in Christ (not some future time) and it uses the technical terms of Israel for it: co-inheritors, co-members, fellow-partakers in the commonwealth, etc. You have seriously missed some of the plainest language there.

The generation that saw all those 1st century things happen expected him , as known from dozens of NT references, but God delayed. To delay is not confusion, but compassion for the last.

 

[EarlyActs]

Say your not a Calvinist without saying you aren't a Calvinist. An allowance? As though God the Father has no clue when the world is going to end because He hasn't decided? Jesus is clear. The Father knows EXACTLY when the world will end. A determinist knows the Father knows this. There is no delay. Even Peter said there is no delay, because God does not view the world/time as we do.

You keep forgetting the parable of the fig tree, and you forget that Jesus said that ALL that came before the fig tree would be accomplished, including the gathering of ALL the elect from the Earth. If what you are saying is true, then you can't be elect. I can't be elect. There can be no elect left.

Matthew 24"29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from [r]the sky, and the powers of [s]the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His [t]elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other."

"32 “Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; 33 so, you too, when you see all these things, [u]recognize that [v]He is near, right at the [w]door. 34 Truly I say to you, this [x]generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away."

When you see all these things. THIS GENERATION will not pass away. That is, the generation that sees the signs and recognizes that Jesus second coming is right at the door. They will see Jesus second coming, all the tribes of the Earth mourning at Jesus return, and the collection of His people from the four winds by His angels.

There is one program with two parts. Two tracts. The lost sheep of the house of Israel, and another flock. Spoke of... separately. What you don't seem to understand about the 70 weeks prophecy is that it deals solely...SOLELY...SOLELY with Israel. That is what God specifically states to Daniel. 70 weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city. This prophecy has NOTHING to do with Gentiles. A Gentile is involved, however, the prophecy was decreed for Israel. The end of the prophecy is the end of the transgression, sin, the bringing in of everlasting righteousness, the sealing up of prophecy, etc. So please tell me, where is the everlasting righteousness in Israel? Where is the end of the transgression and sin? Where are there prophets being attacked by their families? At what time did the whole world see Jesus return and mourn over Him, as He gathered up all His elect?

The mistake with the 70 weeks is to believe that Jesus didn't come the first time to die for sin, and would return again to set up His earthly kingdom in Israel. The mistake is believing that Israel didn't reject Jesus, and thus the focus of history moved to the Gentiles, as Paul specifically states in Romans. And Paul also speaks of it shifting back to Israel after the fulness of the Gentiles has come in. That will be the 70th week. Satan will have his last chance to destroy Israel, and Jesus Himself (Rev 19) will come and save Israel. And then Zechariah will be fulfilled.

It is nice that you don't think there is 2 programs, but you do. You are making 2 ways/peoples/nations/redemptions all down the line, entirely foreign to the NT.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Greg Duren texted me this week telling me that the church he is now attending are going through Revelation, and Greg would totally agree with this interpretation of Revelation 21,22. Greg is a godly man, very humble and very sincere.

I heartily agree - this is true of both Greg and his wife Rachel. I've nothing but the warmest memories of being in their home and fellowshipping with them and their sons - never a cross word or unkindness from either one. I met them both again a few years back at a gathering of the surviving, excluded castaways of the afore-said "skunk" church. I would love nothing better than to be sitting among their present church's study of Revelation, just to hear what their own understanding is - whether I am in agreement with every point or not.

 

[EarlyActs]

My point about Judaic events from 2P3 was that there is the simplest description of the future...and there are none. Meanwhile the Mt24A etc passages are full of it, climaxing in the destruction of Jerusalem.

What you seem to be missing is the timestamp of Lk 23:28. That generation would become adults and find themselves wishing the mountains would fall on them, from the prophets line. There is no mistaking when he was speaking of.

 

[EarlyActs]

There is no place in the NT where the restoration of the last days (Heb 1) is separate from the outpoured Spirit, (Heb 2).

 

[EarlyActs]

Actually Jesus is very clear that there are Judaic events. The time of Jacob's trouble. The Great Tribulation (same thing). Jesus speaks of it specifically, and says as soon as it ends, He returns. "29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from [r]the sky, and the powers of [s]the heavens will be shaken." Immediately after the Great Tribulation, Jesus returns and gathers in His elect. " 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His [t]elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other."

Israel was to be gathered again into their land, and that was 1948. There is yet a tribulation that would remove all flesh from Earth, that has not yet happened. (I'm pretty sure there would be no one around with Earth: population 0.)

But the promise always was that the seed of Abraham (Christ) would be a blessing to the nations, not their non existence.

You’re in some serious muck, my friend.

The resurrection was the enthronement event of Christ foreseen by David, Acts 2 (2Sam___)

 

[Red Baker]

I heartily agree - this is true of both Greg and his wife Rachel. I've nothing but the warmest memories of being in their home and fellowshipping with them and their sons - never a cross word or unkindness from either one. I met them both again a few years back at a gathering of the surviving, excluded castaways of the afore-said "skunk" church. I would love nothing better than to be sitting among their present church's study of Revelation, just to hear what their own understanding is - whether I am in agreement with every point or not.

I'll see if I can bring up his text later, since it does have the name of the church and location I believe. Trust me, you would be in almost 100% percent agreement. I do not believe he's a full blown Preterist, though not far from what they believe overall. Greg has believed this for most of the time I've known him, (38 years) even while at the TGC. He talked (not overly) more about this while we worshipped together in the church in Easley, S.C.

 

[Red Baker]

The resurrection was the enthronement event of Christ foreseen by David, Acts 2 (2Sam___)

Amen.

There is no place in the NT where the restoration of the last days (Heb 1) is separate from the outpoured Spirit, (Heb 2).

Amen.

My point about Judaic events from 2P3 was that there is the simplest description of the future...and there are none. Meanwhile the Mt24A etc passages are full of it, climaxing in the destruction of Jerusalem.

I'm convinced that the destruction of literal Jerusalem is not even under discussion in Matthew 24; Mark 13; and Luke 21. It is a prophecy concerning that which will take place during the little season of Revelation 20, etc. A period of tribulation for the elect seed of Jacob, not of the natural seed of Abraham! They (natural Jews) are not even under consideration, it is a force interpretation to try to make them the center of Jesus' prophecy.... that other scriptures will not support, especially so the Revelation of Jesus Christ, that was given to John, to give to us.

This is why why dates become so critical for the Preterist, to give their false position seemly support, when they cannot get support from the word of God.

You are making 2 ways/peoples/nations/redemptions all down the line, entirely foreign to the NT.

Amen.

According to Jesus and the Old Testament, the time of Jacob's trouble is to be the worst event in the history of Israel, past and future. The Holocaust was A LOT worse than anything that happened in the first century. And, there can very well be worse to come, knowing that if there was to be an all out war, it would be a nuclear holocaust.

The time of Jacob's trouble has reference to the elect seed of Jacob, not to his natural seed! Besides, Mathew 24 is to be interpreted spiritually, not naturally! It is a time of trouble for the church of Jesus Christ, when the tares shall take over the NT churches, leaving the elect seed of Jacob being persecuted and rejected as they never have been since the beginning of time. Matthew 24 is speaking of a spiritual war, not natural.

The generation that shall not pass are children of the wicked one, they shall increase as never before, even in the temples of God! Just as the days of Noah were, (Genesis 6:5) so shall history repeat itself, and the same judgement will come when they are least expecting it to come!

 

[EarlyActs]

Amen.

Amen.

I'm convinced that the destruction of literal Jerusalem is not even under discussion in Matthew 24; Mark 13; and Luke 21. It is a prophecy concerning that which will take place during the little season of Revelation 20, etc. A period of tribulation for the elect seed of Jacob, not of the natural seed of Abraham! They (natural Jews) are not even under consideration, it is a force interpretation to try to make them the center of Jesus' prophecy.... that other scriptures will not support, especially so the Revelation of Jesus Christ, that was given to John, to give to us.

This is why why dates become so critical for the Preterist, to give their false position seemly support, when they cannot get support from the word of God.

Amen.

The time of Jacob's trouble has reference to the elect seed of Jacob, not to his natural seed! Besides, Mathew 24 is to be interpreted spiritually, not naturally! It is a time of trouble for the church of Jesus Christ, when the tares shall take over the NT churches, leaving the elect seed of Jacob being persecuted and rejected as they never have been since the beginning of time. Matthew 24 is speaking of a spiritual war, not natural.

The generation that shall not pass are children of the wicked one, they shall increase as never before, even in the temples of God! Just as the days of Noah were, (Genesis 6:5) so shall history repeat itself, and the same judgement will come when they are least expecting it to come!

Some things are in agreement, but what in the world is 'spiritual' interpretation? The rules of interp are: historical,
then grammatical,
then a search for some kind of extended metaphor if the passage said so (for ex., vultures)

Based on the historical, you would never leave the directness of the communication of Mt 24, etc. I don't mean it is simply Judean in expression, but 1st cent. Judean. He meant that generation and Lk 23:28 puts a biological timestamp in place that cannot be messed with.

That generation was warned to become missionaries for Messiah by Jesus or face extinction. It did. In Acts 3 Peter repeats this by using exolethreuthasatai.

To jump to 'spiritual' (in your case that is the Christian church everywhere, I suppose) is irrational. He doesn't even leave the area (Judea) in his comments, until 24:29 when the end of the world is envisioned. Look at the middle of Lk 21 where there is the warning about the Roman military practice of surrounding, the same warning as in ch19.

You cannot make such mindless jumps when there are details like that.

Eschatology theories crash here: at Mt24B (v29+) the end of the world is declared to be right after the 1st century destruction, but as we know the end of the world (not of Jerusalem) was delayed. Peter has to explain this in 2P3. Mt 24B says this could be the case: 'only the Father knows.'

Without this, you have no way of explaining the widespread view of the nearness of the end of the world (Rom 2, I Cor 7). Nor a way to explain a delay of that once Jerusalem was demolished.

 

[Red Baker]

Some things are in agreement, but what in the world is 'spiritual' interpretation? The rules of interp are: historical,
then grammatical, then a search for some kind of extended metaphor if the passage said so (for ex., vultures)

Greetings EA~I will be more than happy to discuss the Olivet Discourse with you and any other person that desires to do so, no problem.

I have debated this discourse for many years (fifty) with others ~ so I'm no novice for sure and, and most likely neither are you, which should be a good study for others to consider. You asked:

what in the world is 'spiritual' interpretation?

No problem, let me give you a classic example from our Lord's own words.

Matthew 24:16-20~~Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Judaea, in the OT was the place folks went to worship, under the NT it is within the churches of God/temple.

When God's children see the abomination of desolation/man of sin/antichrist all one and the same, stand in the temple of God declaring himself as God ~ this one does when they take the liberty to reject God's word for their own doctrine~many such doctrines we could mention, but not now. When we see this happening we are to flee that we are not partakers of their evil deeds. Not only are we to flee, we should warn others not to enter therein!

Luke 21:21​

“Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.”

If this is speaking of a literal war, then no one in their right mind would even desire to enter therein. More later.

For now consider:

Matthew 24:20​

“But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:”

Spirituals lesson here for us from the Lord Jesus is this: As we are fleeing false churches with the man of sin (man of sin...man of sin...are any and all men who live under the power of sin and by their teachings more or less have a congregation doing the same.) speaking from the pulpits. we as God's children must make sure that our on personal life is not on the sabbath day, nor in the winter...the spiritual meaning is this: "what do we think of concerning the sabbath day~it is a day of rest~so we must make sure that we are doing the will of God by working with all our might to please God in word and deeds and thoughts. Also, what do we think of when winter comes to our minds? Winter time is a time of deadness, fruitless season, very little activity, in comparison the springtime, and summer months! We must make sure that our flight from false churches, that we ourselves are not like them, fruitless, deadness toward he things of God!

If this was speaking literally of invasion of the Romans, then who cares what day, or season it was, folks would get out!

Yes, we first read the scriptures at face value, and then seek the truth of them by comparison of other scriptures, and seeking God in prayer for his truth on them.

Later.....RB

 

[ChristB4us]

@3 Resurrections

Just a quick question.

Do you have a go to for checking on suggested dates of when the books of the bible were written.

I know they are all over the place but the other day I was checking on Acts, vs the 4 main gospels because I had read something that did not sit well and I kept running into the suggesting that the first 3 could well have been written after
70AD which could not be.

But Acts is said to be written 64AD and so the three that talk of 70AD had to be written before hand, but after the Cruciixion right?

Do these seem right to you?

Math 67 AD

Mark 66 AD

Luke 63AD

I would question Biblical scholars of their educated guess as to when a certain book was written.

Because John was exiled to Patmos around 95 A.D., many believed that the Book of Revelation was written after the Epistle of 2 Corinthians which that second epistle was written around 55-56 A.D., but 2 Corinthians 12:1-4 is an indirect testimony from Paul regarding the apostle John and the Book of Revelations.

2 Corinthians 12:1It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.

2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.

3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth

4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

So either he was exiled earlier than it was believed, or John was visiting that place before his exile mayhap to preach to the penal colony?

We shall know all things when we see Him face to face on day, but it reads to me that the Book of Revelation was written before that second epistle to the Corinthians.

 

[3 Resurrections]

We shall know all things when we see Him face to face on day, but it reads to me that the Book of Revelation was written before that second epistle to the Corinthians

The book of 2 Corinthians was written just after the AD 57 riot of the silversmiths at Ephesus. We know this because in 2 Corinthians 1:8, Paul was testifying of that recent episode of tribulation. "For we would not, brethren, have you ignorant of our trouble which came to us in Asia, that we were pressed out of measure, above strength, insomuch that we despaired even of life:" Paul later on around AD 60 also testified concerning this past tribulation he experienced in Ephesus when Priscilla and Aquila who hosted the church in Ephesus had "laid down their own necks" for his sake during this time (Romans 16:3-4).

The book of Revelation was written just a couple years or so AFTER 2 Corinthians written around AD 57. That is the very reason why John wrote that he was then "a companion in tribulation" along with the saints (Rev. 1:9). John was then experiencing the after-effects of the AD 57 tribulation launched against Paul and the believers by the Ephesian silversmiths; a persecution against the saints which had been continued by the hostile Jews of Asia.

2 Corinthians 12:1It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.

2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.

3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth

4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

This was Paul boasting - not about himself - but probably about Paul's knowledge of Lazarus, who had died, gone to Paradise, and been resurrected by Christ four days later. Or it could have been Paul testifying about knowing Melchizedek, who Hebrews 7:8 says was still alive in those days. At any rate, those "unspeakable words" were not referring to the visions which John saw and was commanded to show those visions to the believers of the seven Asian churches.

Because John was exiled to Patmos around 95 A.D.,

This is an impossible late date, considering all the internal evidence of Revelation itself which points to a date between late AD 59 and no later than early AD 60, just before the catastrophic AD 60 Laodicean earthquake.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Luke 21:21​

“Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.”

If this is speaking of a literal war, then no one in their right mind would even desire to enter therein.

It WAS literal armies that were to surround the old city of Jerusalem. In spite of the danger from the Romans, those who were still attempting to zealously follow the Mosaic law back then were still stubbornly making their pilgrimage trips to Jerusalem for those three harvest feast celebrations of Passover, Pentecost, and the Feast of Tabernacles, as used to be required under the Old Covenant. Christ was fore-warning everyone that to insist on making those pilgrimage trips to Jerusalem for those harvest feasts once they saw Jerusalem surrounded by armies would end up being disastrous for them. The AD 66 year was when Jerusalem became surrounded by opposing Zealot and Roman armies, with many people becoming trapped within the city. Christ knew this was going to happen for those who were insistent on following the Old Covenant feast celebrations which had become obsolete under the New Covenant.

If this was speaking literally of invasion of the Romans, then who cares what day, or season it was, folks would get out

Red, your interpretations of this passage are so spiritually minded that they are of no earthly use. You conveniently discard Christ's warning to nursing mothers and those who were with child that would have "woe" pronounced against them during this difficult period of flight - especially when Christ on the way to the cross warned the women weeping for Him of what was going to happen to them and their children personally. Your method of interpreting this passage as a "spiritual flight" from "spiritual enemies" becomes ridiculously stretched beyond all reason. Christ said this was going to be that generation of those in Judea and Jerusalem that would experience this - not the world at large.

The prediction was for all the physical stones of Jerusalem's infrastructure that would be torn down. Christ was not predicting that the "living stones" of the church would be all torn down. This is an impossibility. It was literal "flesh" of people that would be saved by the shortening of those disastrous days. In other words, their physical lives would be at risk if they remained in the physical country of Judea or the physical city of Jerusalem once those physical armies had surrounded Jerusalem.

 

[ChristB4us]

The book of 2 Corinthians was written just after the AD 57 riot of the silversmiths at Ephesus. We know this because in 2 Corinthians 1:8, Paul was testifying of that recent episode of tribulation. "For we would not, brethren, have you ignorant of our trouble which came to us in Asia, that we were pressed out of measure, above strength, insomuch that we despaired even of life:" Paul later on around AD 60 also testified concerning this past tribulation he experienced in Ephesus when Priscilla and Aquila who hosted the church in Ephesus had "laid down their own necks" for his sake during this time (Romans 16:3-4).

The book of Revelation was written just a couple years or so AFTER 2 Corinthians written around AD 57. That is the very reason why John wrote that he was then "a companion in tribulation" along with the saints (Rev. 1:9). John was then experiencing the after-effects of the AD 57 tribulation launched against Paul and the believers by the Ephesian silversmiths; a persecution against the saints which had been continued by the hostile Jews of Asia.


This was Paul boasting - not about himself - but probably about Paul's knowledge of Lazarus, who had died, gone to Paradise, and been resurrected by Christ four days later. Or it could have been Paul testifying about knowing Melchizedek, who Hebrews 7:8 says was still alive in those days. At any rate, those "unspeakable words" were not referring to the visions which John saw and was commanded to show those visions to the believers of the seven Asian churches.


This is an impossible late date, considering all the internal evidence of Revelation itself which points to a date between late AD 59 and no later than early AD 60, just before the catastrophic AD 60 Laodicean earthquake.

Reread 2 Corinthians 12:1-4 as this is Paul testifying of knowing a man that was taken up to the third Heaven which I believe he was referring to the apostle john and the Book of revelation.

2 Corinthians 12:1It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.

2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.

3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth

4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Reads to me that the Book of Revelation existed about 14 years ago before that second epistle to the Corinthians was written.

Then after verse 4, Paul started talking about himself in regards to that thorn in the flesh, his infirmity in the flesh.

 

[EarlyActs]

Greetings EA~I will be more than happy to discuss the Olivet Discourse with you and any other person that desires to do so, no problem.

I have debated this discourse for many years (fifty) with others ~ so I'm no novice for sure and, and most likely neither are you, which should be a good study for others to consider. You asked:

No problem, let me give you a classic example from our Lord's own words.


Judaea, in the OT was the place folks went to worship, under the NT it is within the churches of God/temple.

When God's children see the abomination of desolation/man of sin/antichrist all one and the same, stand in the temple of God declaring himself as God ~ this one does when they take the liberty to reject God's word for their own doctrine~many such doctrines we could mention, but not now. When we see this happening we are to flee that we are not partakers of their evil deeds. Not only are we to flee, we should warn others not to enter therein!

Luke 21:21​

“Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.”

If this is speaking of a literal war, then no one in their right mind would even desire to enter therein. More later.

For now consider:

Matthew 24:20​

“But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:”

Spirituals lesson here for us from the Lord Jesus is this: As we are fleeing false churches with the man of sin (man of sin...man of sin...are any and all men who live under the power of sin and by their teachings more or less have a congregation doing the same.) speaking from the pulpits. we as God's children must make sure that our on personal life is not on the sabbath day, nor in the winter...the spiritual meaning is this: "what do we think of concerning the sabbath day~it is a day of rest~so we must make sure that we are doing the will of God by working with all our might to please God in word and deeds and thoughts. Also, what do we think of when winter comes to our minds? Winter time is a time of deadness, fruitless season, very little activity, in comparison the springtime, and summer months! We must make sure that our flight from false churches, that we ourselves are not like them, fruitless, deadness toward he things of God!

If this was speaking literally of invasion of the Romans, then who cares what day, or season it was, folks would get out!

Yes, we first read the scriptures at face value, and then seek the truth of them by comparison of other scriptures, and seeking God in prayer for his truth on them.

Later.....RB

You don't seem to be familiar with the zealot revolt seething behind the scenes at that time, which went public during the revolt years ending in 70. There is no justification for jumping to our times or deceptions today. See the timestamp at Lk 23:28.

Spiritual means practical and mature. It has nothing to do with interp. If you mean something is a metaphor or allegory, says so. But don't jumble normal English by saying there is a 'spiritual' interp that is not about a mature practicality.

I studied 'Luke--Acts and the Jewish War' at the master's level, including the translation of Josephus' Jewish War passages.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Eschatology theories crash here: at Mt24B (v29+) the end of the world is declared to be right after the 1st century destruction, but as we know the end of the world (not of Jerusalem) was delayed.

Christ spoke of "the consummation of the AGE" for His first-century generation to experience - not the end of the world. These are two different Greek words entirely, as I'm sure you are aware of. When Paul wrote in Ephesians 2:7 concerning "the AGES that are coming..." this indicated PLURAL AGES which would follow that first-century generation's last days Paul was then occupying. There was no "delay" of prophecy at all. Christ bodily returned as promised for His resurrected elect ones, "immediately after the tribulation of those days" involving Judea and Jerusalem's days of vengeance. We also will share in the same promise of a bodily resurrection when He comes once again for a third time in our future.

You don't seem to be familiar with the zealot revolt seething behind the scenes at that time, which went public during the revolt years ending in 70. There is no justification for jumping to our times or deceptions today. See the timestamp at Lk 23:28.

Kudos to you for becoming well-studied on the Zealot factions operating in those days. It does explain a LOT of Christ's and the scripture's prophecy of the last days during that "consummation of the age". Personally, I really enjoy reading Adam Maarschalk's Pursuing Truth website with his thorough coverage of all the varying Zealot factions and their competing leaders. He has made quite a study of this phase of history over the years he has been posting. Josephus himself actually is represented in scripture as being one of the ten horns on the Judean Scarlet Beast of Revelation 17 (but not Rev. 13, which is a different Beast connected with Rome).

 

[Red Baker]

It WAS literal armies that were to surround the old city of Jerusalem.

You, 3 R'S are the one that's wrong. You are trusting Josephus' Wars of the Jews, when you should be trusting the word of God to deliver its truth to you.

Luke 21:21 is understood by scriptures just as :

Revelation 20:9​

“And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.”

You can trust extra biblical sources, (The Wars of the Jews, by the infidel Josephus) but, I will trust God's word for my understanding, it always delivers.

Kudos to you for becoming well-studied on the Zealot factions operating in those days. It does explain a LOT of Christ's and the scripture's prophecy of the last days during that "consummation of the age". Personally, I really enjoy reading Adam Maarschalk's Pursuing Truth website with his thorough coverage of all the varying Zealot factions and their competing leaders. He has made quite a study of this phase of history over the years he has been posting. Josephus himself actually is represented in scripture as being one of the ten horns on the Judean Scarlet Beast of Revelation 17 (but not Rev. 13, which is a different Beast connected with Rome).

Your words to EA is a bunch of beans, to put it nicely! Being well study in such things only opens the door for errors, when truth is found only in the word of God. Men, go outside of the scriptures when they are unable to defend their doctrine with the word of God that is pure and without error.

You don't seem to be familiar with the zealot revolt seething behind the scenes at that time, which went public during the revolt years ending in 70. There is no justification for jumping to our times or deceptions today. See the timestamp at Lk 23:28.

I do not care about what was behind the scenes during the years post Christ's death and resurrection, and the completion of the scriptures other than what is recorded in the scriptures. I live by every word of God, nothing outside of them has any bearing on my understanding of truth. So, you sir, and talking to the wrong person.

Concerning Luke 23:28, which should include verses 29,30, we can comment concerning their fulfillment at the appropriate time.

Spiritual means practical and mature. It has nothing to do with interp.

Again, you are not talking to a school kid, but and age Christian, who has been doing this for long time, I understand what spiritual means.

Spiritual interpretation is very precise and objective; it is interpretation done under the guidance, or by the light, of the Holy Spirit, Just as the Lord practiced many times over.

Matthew 11:14,15~"And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."

Of course few will receive this method of interpretation, especially so without Josephus' approval!

I studied 'Luke--Acts and the Jewish War' at the master's level, including the translation of Josephus' Jewish War passages.

So, what does that make you? Why not study at The Master's feet. Truth is found only in scriptures, never outside of them, never! Jesus said~search the scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life.

John 5:39​

“Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."