Revelation … everything was written FOR the people living THEN?

[Hazelelponi]

Pardon a little side comment then Ill go away.

I see what you are saying.

The problem I have seen over the years are those who say soon had to have been imminent. They always then point back to what Jesus said in the Olivet discourse about 'this generation" as proof that even though it is future... the "soon" and "this generation" make it so that it has already happened.

An no one knows when Revelation was written. For I have heard for 60AD to 95AD . The earlier date is what the preterists hang their hat on because they are certain the temple destruction was fortold and Jesus did return, then.... I just think until we could know which side of 70AD Revelation was written its hard to know specifics.

Thanks for letting me poke in here.

I think somehow the word generation has not been translated or interpreted correctly.

As far as soon, and what that means...

If you have lived in eternity past and will continiue in eternity future... a mere 6000 years here, or 2000 brom' Jesus' birth would be a drop in the bucket , hence whatever would be forcast would be soon.

To me, the when of revelation being written doesn't matter because of how it was written. It starts with Jesus, and centers on Christ and His bride - this whole book is truly indispensable. I would personally go with the earlier dating but late dating doesn't matter to me either way. The book of Revelation starts in the beginning.

If we examine, the historicists are probably right, nearly all these signs were fulfilled during the events surrounding 70 AD. I am amillennial but amil historicists see a lot of early prophetic fulfillment and I agree with that within the context of amillennialism.

I actually agreed to the point I thought very little was going to warn us the return really was imminent. .

What I have lately been wondering though, is if what the Jews went through - their 70ad tribulation - whether the church will mirror events similar to that in some way before the second coming of our Lord. A basic reliving of the events described in John's revelation.

The above however might just be my being around too many dispensationalists lately or something too... Lol.

But I can't stop seeing it. I'm seeing a mirror.. it's only a little different, because the time is different. It doesn't matter, as in, it doesn't affect salvation, it's just weird to see.

 

[makesends]

Pardon a little side comment then Ill go away.

I see what you are saying.

The problem I have seen over the years are those who say soon had to have been imminent. They always then point back to what Jesus said in the Olivet discourse about 'this generation" as proof that even though it is future... the "soon" and "this generation" make it so that it has already happened.

An no one knows when Revelation was written. For I have heard for 60AD to 95AD . The earlier date is what the preterists hang their hat on because they are certain the temple destruction was fortold and Jesus did return, then.... I just think until we could know which side of 70AD Revelation was written its hard to know specifics.

Thanks for letting me poke in here.

I think somehow the word generation has not been translated or interpreted correctly.

As far as soon, and what that means...

If you have lived in eternity past and will continiue in eternity future... a mere 6000 years here, or 2000 brom' Jesus' birth would be a drop in the bucket , hence whatever would be forcast would be soon.

Lol, between @Hazelelponi and you, I am even more lost than before, on Revelation.

I am stuck, reading it, only to seeing God's heart, and his dominion, glory and "otherness", and, of course, the beautiful expectation we have in him. That is my use of the Book of Revelation.

I can make nothing of sequence of events, except for the 'end (goal, purpose) of all things', and the means (the lamb slain) of getting there.

 

[EarlyActs]

I am not a Preterist. It is not a uniquely Preterist view.

And anyway, preterism has a fundamental divide about how complete 70 AD was.

 

[TMSO]

@makesends

The problem I have with how some are interpreting is that they arent using scripture and reason.

That's why you have preterism, post millennialism, amillennialism, etc. A proper reasoning would be to look at other prophecies and their fulfillment. There are plenty to choose from. For instance, Joseph in prison:

"9 So the chief cupbearer told his dream to Joseph, and said to him, “In my dream, behold, there was a vine in front of me; 10 and on the vine were three branches. And as it was budding, its blossoms came out, and its clusters produced ripe grapes. 11 Now Pharaoh’s cup was in my hand; so I took the grapes and squeezed them into Pharaoh’s cup, and I put the cup into Pharaoh’s hand.”

The interpretation: "12 Then Joseph said to him, “This is the interpretation of it: the three branches are three days; 13 within three more days Pharaoh will lift up your head and restore you to your office; and you will put Pharaoh’s cup into his hand according to your former custom when you were his cupbearer."

See how direct the prophecy is? No crazy interpretation of the signs. Simply, in three days you will be doing your job for Pharaoh again. In his dream he saw the vine with three branches, but the rest of the dream dealt with his job. What he knew. A direct connection to the prophecy that he didn't have to interpret. He just needed to know what the dream meant. (They believed dreams meant things back then.)

What about the baker?
"16 When the chief baker saw that he had interpreted favorably, he said to Joseph, “I also saw in my dream, and behold, there were three baskets of white bread on my head; 17 and in the top basket there were some of all sorts of baked food for Pharaoh, and the birds were eating them out of the basket on my head.”

"18 Then Joseph answered and said, “This is its interpretation: the three baskets are three days; 19 within three more days Pharaoh will lift up your head from you and will hang you on a tree, and the birds will eat your flesh off you.”

So even the birds are a direct connection to this direct prophecy. Having the baskets on his head, and the birds eating out of the top one had actual importance in meaning. The one on the top of his head was for Pharaoh. He is included by name (Pharaoh) in the prophecy by the baker. So his job as a baker, and then that he baked for the Pharaoh. No words are wasted in this prophecy, they all mean something.

With Pharaoh, notice how it is all connected to food. To cows and grain. It is related, and it is direct. 7 of each, fat and sickly for cows and stalks of grain. The fat ones come first, which is because... the 7 years of abundance come first. Direct again. The 7 sickly ones come next, which is seven years of famine. The prophecy doesn't stop there. After consuming the fat, the sickly ones appearance remains exactly the same. Even this has direct meaning. The years of famine will be so bad that no one will remember the years of abundance.

Could you treat the prophecies of the Kingdom in the Old Testament in the same way? Or do you allegorize it away by disconnecting the symbols from their direct meaning? And this from looking at fulfilled prophecies and being able to see what they meant by their fulfillment. 70 weeks? 70 sets of 7. Is it indeterminate? From all the fulfilled prophecies we have... no it isn't. The millennial kingdom, 1000 years. Mentioned a number of times, so is it indeterminate? Given scripture and passed fulfilled prophecy, we cannot make that claim, or we claim that God changed.

All of this is to say to the OP, Revelation was not written simply for the people in the 1st century. It was written to the universal church which is the body of believers. A record to all believers of the revealing of Jesus as King of all creation, and the road to get there. It isn't for any particular group, but for the whole. Hence it has been preserved for us today by God, along with the rest of the inspired word. By the end of Revelation, everyone knows exactly who Jesus is. Everyone. Not all accept, but all will know. There is no reason to believe it was solely for the first century, unless you take God's seat when you say that.

 

[Hazelelponi]

That's why you have preterism, post millennialism, amillennialism, etc. A proper reasoning would be to look at other prophecies and their fulfillment. There are plenty to choose from. For instance, Joseph in prison:

"9 So the chief cupbearer told his dream to Joseph, and said to him, “In my dream, behold, there was a vine in front of me; 10 and on the vine were three branches. And as it was budding, its blossoms came out, and its clusters produced ripe grapes. 11 Now Pharaoh’s cup was in my hand; so I took the grapes and squeezed them into Pharaoh’s cup, and I put the cup into Pharaoh’s hand.”

The interpretation: "12 Then Joseph said to him, “This is the interpretation of it: the three branches are three days; 13 within three more days Pharaoh will lift up your head and restore you to your office; and you will put Pharaoh’s cup into his hand according to your former custom when you were his cupbearer."

Do you understand why the dream indicates that his position would be restored?

The clue is with the fruitful budding of the vine that's producing fruit of high quality (fit for a King)...

That dream also isn't straightforward on the issue of time. How did Joseph know the 3 branches represented 3 days? It could have been 3 years, it could have been 3 anything really, but Joseph said 3 days and was correct as that is what came to pass.

So how did he know each branch represented a day? Why did he think that they represented time at all?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

rev 1: 19 Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this.

There are three aspects to revelations.

1. Past tense. things he has seen.
2. Present tense, things which are
3. Future tense, things which will take place (also showing that the things spoken will literally take place. they may be represented by symbols, like in Daniel. but the events will come to pass.

 

[TMSO]

Do you understand why the dream indicates that his position would be restored?

The clue is with the fruitful budding of the vine that's producing fruit of high quality (fit for a King)...

That dream also isn't straightforward on the issue of time. How did Joseph know the 3 branches represented 3 days? It could have been 3 years, it could have been 3 anything really, but Joseph said 3 days and was correct as that is what came to pass.

So how did he know each branch represented a day? Why did he think that they represented time at all?

God explained the dream to him for both. In God's explanation you can see how direct the prophecy is. It helps that it came to pass exactly as the prophecy declared it, as explained by God to Joseph.

"Then they said to him, “We have had a dream and there is no one to interpret it.” Then Joseph said to them, “Do not interpretations belong to God? Tell it to me, please.”"

It is the same for Pharaoh's dream, it is the same for Nebuchadnezzar's dream, Beltshezzar and the hand on the wall, etc. Since we have the prophecies and their interpretations, one can see how clear and direct prophecies are. Yet, when it comes to eschatology, everyone wants to say prophecies are vague and indeterminate. Kind of like how the Jews treated Messianic prophecies, and reinterpreted those and thus completely missed Jesus coming.They proved they knew the prophecies by answering Herod when he asked where the king was to be born. They knew the prophecies, but they had allegorized them away.

 

[Hazelelponi]

God explained the dream to him

So it's not "straightforward" basic, anyone can understand prophecy.

All prophecy is imagery that needs interpretation from God.

 

[makesends]

God explained the dream to him for both. In God's explanation you can see how direct the prophecy is. It helps that it came to pass exactly as the prophecy declared it, as explained by God to Joseph.

"Then they said to him, “We have had a dream and there is no one to interpret it.” Then Joseph said to them, “Do not interpretations belong to God? Tell it to me, please.”"

It is the same for Pharaoh's dream, it is the same for Nebuchadnezzar's dream, Beltshezzar and the hand on the wall, etc. Since we have the prophecies and their interpretations, one can see how clear and direct prophecies are. Yet, when it comes to eschatology, everyone wants to say prophecies are vague and indeterminate. Kind of like how the Jews treated Messianic prophecies, and reinterpreted those and thus completely missed Jesus coming.They proved they knew the prophecies by answering Herod when he asked where the king was to be born. They knew the prophecies, but they had allegorized them away.

Notice that Joseph (or Daniel, in his case) was the only one who knew, and notice that was only because God made it plain to him. Notice that it was a dream and not written Scripture. Notice also, that it was a prophecy about a certain fact involving a specific time and place and circumstance. This was not Eschatology. And it was not a melding of last days on earth with events in heaven and hell.

But, besides that, if any other believer besides Joseph was told the dream do you think they would have said, "Oh, I can figure out what this means!"

 

[Josheb]

That's why you have preterism, post millennialism, amillennialism, etc. A proper reasoning would be to look at other prophecies and their fulfillment. There are plenty to choose from.

All of that is blatantly false and/or irrational. All those isms mentioned do use scripture and reason and do look at prophecies and their fulfillment. Please show me where any of those ~isms ignore the Joseph/bakery text.

 

[TMSO]

So it's not "straightforward" basic, anyone can understand prophecy.

All prophecy is imagery that needs interpretation from God.

So, basically, we do not interpret scripture using scripture, but we have to basically make it up since it is all imagery, even though we can actually see what a prophecy is, and see it's fulfillment. So we are all in the dark. Basically, Revelation wasn't written for anyone.

 

[TMSO]

Notice that Joseph (or Daniel, in his case) was the only one who knew, and notice that was only because God made it plain to him. Notice that it was a dream and not written Scripture. Notice also, that it was a prophecy about a certain fact involving a specific time and place and circumstance. This was not Eschatology. And it was not a melding of last days on earth with events in heaven and hell.

For Joseph, he never said that God revealed it to him, and scripture does not say. All we have is that God reveals. For all we know that was Joseph using his brain as God directed. Since it isn't recorded in scripture... don't make things up. All we have is that somehow the interpretation was revealed, and scripture is silent on how. All we have is God does it, but no how. Perhaps their dreams were simplistic. Also, if it isn't scripture, that is recorded in our Bible, where did I find it? Did I dream it up?

In Daniel's case it wasn't a dream. Gabriel physically came to Daniel and tapped on his shoulder while Daniel was praying. To pray is not synonymous with sleeping. And it was a decree/command from God that this will happen. It is all prophecy, and it is all the same. Prophecy that has already been fulfilled in Daniel, has the same flavor as the escatological prophecies. Almost all of Nebuchadnezzar's dream of his statue has been fulfilled. That prophecy is given again using beasts instead of a statue. The statue is man's view of man's greatness, while the vision with the four beasts is God's view of man's corruption. (Hence beasts, instead of a beautiful statue.) The two prophecies can be linked by... using scripture to interpret scripture.

But, besides that, if any other believer besides Joseph was told the dream do you think they would have said, "Oh, I can figure out what this means!"

You need to pick a better prophecy to deal with. There is too much extraneous information that Joseph was privey to. Such as Pharaoh's birthday being in another three days. If you have enough information, and believe in dream interpretation, it wouldn't be to difficult to spit out an interpretation for these two dreams. I don't believe that is what happened, but scripture doesn't tell us how Joseph interpreted the dream. We just have Joseph saying it is God who provides interpretation. He then listens to the dream, and gives his instant answer.

 

[Hazelelponi]

So, basically, we do not interpret scripture using scripture, but we have to basically make it up since it is all imagery, even though we can actually see what a prophecy is, and see it's fulfillment. So we are all in the dark. Basically, Revelation wasn't written for anyone.

Is every vine with three branches you see in a dream mean your going to be a cupbearer again in three days?

We interpret Scripture using Scripture but we can only go so far and then no farther in interpretation of that which is symbolic.

We know much about how God used symbolisms, especially as relates to Israel the Bride and Israel the nation and Israel the Son...

But we can only go as far as Scripture itself allows, and then no farther.

It is not natural man who sees.

 

[TMSO]

Is every vine with three branches you see in a dream mean your going to be a cupbearer again in three days?

First, can we start with a rational argument that actually deals with the argument? Prophecy is scripture. Scripture is written by God, inspired. Scripture is perfect. God has given us all we need in scripture. Four premises for my argument. The argument, if prophecy is a part of scripture, scripture is given by God for our aid, for our satiation each day of the daily bread, if scripture is perfect and written by God, then isn't Joseph's response to the baker an cupbearer answered by scripture? "Then Joseph said to them, “Do not interpretations belong to God? Tell it to me, please.” IF God has given us a whole scripture full of interpretations linked to fulfillment, why can't we use what God has given, since interpretations belong to God, not to you, me, or anyone else here, to understand prophecies God has given. I mean, aren't there over a thousand prophecies fulfilled by Jesus to see how the prophecies are a direct pointer to Christ? Then prophecies about Israel, that are exactly as precise and direct? Then these small prophecies with the baker, the cup bearer, and Pharaoh that again show that prophecy is direct and to the point, even when using symbolism.

We interpret Scripture using Scripture but we can only go so far and then no farther in interpretation of that which is symbolic.

Yes, but the event behind the prophecy is still a literal event, even if you don't want it to be. The thing that is strange in when something that is direct, physical, not given as something figurative or a symbol is thrown out simply because it doesn't match up with your belief.

We know much about how God used symbolisms, especially as relates to Israel the Bride and Israel the nation and Israel the Son...

But we can only go as far as Scripture itself allows, and then no farther.

Let's break this down. We have the millennium, which is 1000 years. Scripture mentions it more than once that it is 1000 years. So, if you look at every other prophecy, we have 1000 of something. Here it says years. several times it says 1000 years. Would it be repeated if it didn't mean something? If it is 1000 years, perhaps 1000 months, or 1000 weeks? 1000 decades? Numbers are important, specific, and direct in prophecy. God owns the sheep on 1000 hills is not a prophecy. It is poetry. It is not the same thing, and should not be abused as such. One should not abuse the Bible, but properly divide it.

Some believe the millennium is happening now. I point you back to the millennial prophecies of the Old Testament and ask if the character of the world today matches up at all to what millennial prophecy of the Old Testament says about the character of the world, and the character of this Kingdom. Also remember, the state of a kingdom is a reflection of its ruler/king. Would you say that the state of the world is a reflection of Christ, and Christ's Kingdom?

The end times leading to the millennium are at hand, that is imminent. All that means is it can happen at any time. Only the one who knows when it is can tell you if that means soon as in will happen soon, or if it just means that it can happen at any time, even a million years from now. Why else are we told to endure, and told about people who will fall away because they believe that God is being slack in His promise, or they are deceived by others? The book of Revelation was written to all believers, with no focus on anyone in particular.