Predestination?

[1Thess521]

Which verse of scripture do you reject?

none

 

[1Thess521]

I did but you missed it!

rhen by all means repost your answer: I'll check it out

 

[Eleanor]

God forces you yo be saved against your will???
And even worse forces you to be lost even if you comply with Jos requirements for salvation and Love Him???
God offers / provides salvation
Jn 3:16 whosoever! Must choose to believe and remain in belief
Jn 15:4-6 choose to abide
Matt 24:13 endures to the end

Previously addressed. . .post #12.

 

[Red Baker]

you seem stuck
Here is the correct answer.

Q: is it possible for the "Elect" to not be saved?
A: It is impossible for the "Elect" to not be saved

(that is what a direct answer looks like to a direct question)

1 Thess521~Let me add this to the discussion. You have pressed Don to answer a question, a question that neither he or even you have truly answered scripturally, no pun intended.

Q: is it possible for the "Elect" to not be saved?
A: It is impossible for the "Elect" to not be saved

I would add this: It is indeed impossible for the elect not to be saved from sin and condemnation, impossible.

It is also possible for the elect not to be saved from their ignorance of many bible doctrines~Don being a classic example of this, by still defending Catholicism.

Salvation/saved/save are used in different senses in the scriptures. It is used in a practical sense often.

Example #1:

1st Timothy 4:13-16~"Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine. Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery. Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all. Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee."

Around six thing mentioned here by Paul that men of God must do, in order to save themselves and those they preach to, failure to do so, will leave them in error and even false teachings. We have no part in our legal, vital salvation, but we do in our practical salvation while living here in the flesh after God regenerates us.

Example #2:

John 19:39​

“And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight.”

As far as we know, this godly man never left the Pharisees, based upon three references of him in the scriptures, yet he was a child of God and proved it by this token of kindness to our Lord. Yet, he missed out on may precious truth by staying with them, even though not being totally one with them, what a miserable life for a child of God to live.
Example #3:

2 Peter 2:8​

“(For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds”

Lot, a regenerated child of God, proven by his righteous soul being vexed daily living among those wicked Sodomites. He was save, but far from being saved practically speaking, he lost so much by making bad decisions.

Here is the correct answer.

Q: is it possible for the "Elect" to not be saved?
A: It is impossible for the "Elect" to not be saved

Half truth my brother!

 

[1Thess521]

1 Thess521~Let me add this to the discussion. You have pressed Don to answer a question, a question that neither he or even you have truly answered scripturally, no pun intended.

I would add this: It is indeed impossible for the elect not to be saved from sin and condemnation, impossible.

It is also possible for the elect not to be saved from their ignorance of many bible doctrines~Don being a classic example of this, by still defending Catholicism.

Salvation/saved/save are used in different senses in the scriptures. It is used in a practical sense often.

Example #1:

Around six thing mentioned here by Paul that men of God must do, in order to save themselves and those they preach to, failure to do so, will leave them in error and even false teachings. We have no part in our legal, vital salvation, but w3e di in oiur practical salvation while living here in the flesh after God regenerates us.

Example #2:


As far as we know, this godly man never left the Pharisees, based upon three references of him in the scriptures, yet he was a child of God and proved it by this token of kindness to our Lord. Yet, he missed out on may precious truth by staying with them, even though not being totally one with them, what a miserable life for a child of God to live.
Example #3:

Lot, a regenerated child of God, proven by his righteous soul being vexed daily living among those wicked Sodomites.
He was save, but far from being saved practically speaking, he lost so much by making bad decisions.


Half truth my brother!

The context of elect: is God's elect unto salvation.
by definition> if they will not not saved, then they were not among the elect
Verses:
Eph1: 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding,

Romans 8: 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Romans 8:33: "Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies"

1 Peter 1: To God’s elect, ... who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood"

@donadams is Catholic:
(all Catholic sources)

"By definition, the ELECT are those whom God infallibly foresees will be saved (Rom 8:28-30).​

By this definition, it is impossible for the elect to be lost, precisely because God foreknows who will not be lost. But since election depends on God's infallible foreknowledge, we simply have no way of knowing whether or not we are in that category -- God knows with certainty His elect, but we do not.​

The elect are predestined in the sense that God knows them, and enables them by grace, to be saved"​

//www.biblicalcatholic.com/apologetics/num21.htm​

​

Election: The eternal choice by God of those whom He absolutely wills to be saved.​

//www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/dictionary/index.cfm?id=33146​

​

The Scriptures as well as the Catholic Church teach that God elects only some for salvation, and God knew of their election from all eternity.​

//www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/is-gods-election-of-the-faithful-unconditional​

 

[Carbon]

When God changes our nature we make different "free will" decisions .

God cannot make a decision that is contrary to His nature: and neither can you.
ex God cannot chose to lie.

The unregenerate cannot chose to follow God:
those regenerated (born-again) cannot chose to abandon God..
There will be no-one born again who will end up in Hell.

Whereas you have agreed that Catholicism allows for the possibility that an infant can be baptized and grow up to be a lifelong atheist; never once in their entire life believing in God

IOW Catholicism allows for the possibility of a born-again, life-long atheist to exist; actually rejecting God for their entire conscious life.

Being born again and never believing in God!!!
I know you think it is true in Catholicism: but do you think that is biblically true?

I like the way Voddie says it. You can choose your favorite ice cream flavor. But you did not choose your tastebuds.

 

[makesends]

Conditional perseverance:

((If you are saved there would no reason to participate, no reason to abide or endure, and no need for perseverance))

Mk 13:13 endure to the end
Matt 7:14
Matt 16:24
Matt 24:13 endure to the end
Jn 2:24-25
Jn 8:9
Jn 15:4 abide in christ
Jn 15:5
Jn 15:10
Rom 1:5
Rom 8:13-17
Rom 11:22
1 cor 7:24
1 cor 13:7
2 thes 1:4
Gal 5:2-4
Gal 5:25
Col 1:21-23
Col 2:5
2 Tim 2:3
2 Tim 2:12
1 pet 2:20
1 Jn 2:24-28
1 Jn 3:6
Heb 3:4-6
Heb 6:4-9
Heb 12:7
Heb 12:22-25
James 1:12

1 John 2:6
He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

But since your save you don’t really have to.

(((The “Your Saved” gospel is another gospel and not the true gospel revealed by Christ and taught by His church))) Matt 28:19
Gal 1:6 1 Timothy 4:1 2 Tim 4:3

That logic has been destroyed many times. I'm surprised you still post it.

You say, "(If you are saved there would no reason to participate, no reason to abide or endure, and no need for perseverance)" but you neglect the fact that we have consistently shown that not only is there all the reason in the world to understand that God uses means to accomplish his promises, but that the saved will indeed persevere, not as a cause of their salvation, but a result.

You say, "But since your save you don’t really have to [walk even as Christ walked]." How does anyone know they are saved, if they don't?

Notice a relevant passage on another subject, in Matthew 24: "...would deceive, if it were possible, even the Elect." The implication is that it is not possible for the Elect to be deceived (on the matter at hand in that reference) but that they will be 'fed' the deception. Thus with perseverance: The Elect will persevere, but it will take all sorts of effort and trouble and love of God on their part. But it is a sure thing that they will, as God always accomplishes precisely what he set out to do. And if "they" do not persevere, they are not of the Elect —thus it behooves us to persevere in obedience and pursuit of Christ and rejection of sin and temptation.

You might use this tack on OSAS, but it doesn't work on Reformed Theology. Once again —We don't say that anything promised is automatic, but only that it is sure.

 

[1Thess521]

Conditional perseverance:

((If you are saved there would no reason to participate, no reason to abide or endure, and no need for perseverance))

Mk 13:13 endure to the end
Matt 7:14
Matt 16:24
Matt 24:13 endure to the end
Jn 2:24-25
Jn 8:9
Jn 15:4 abide in christ
Jn 15:5
Jn 15:10
Rom 1:5
Rom 8:13-17
Rom 11:22
1 cor 7:24
1 cor 13:7
2 thes 1:4
Gal 5:2-4
Gal 5:25
Col 1:21-23
Col 2:5
2 Tim 2:3
2 Tim 2:12
1 pet 2:20
1 Jn 2:24-28
1 Jn 3:6
Heb 3:4-6
Heb 6:4-9
Heb 12:7
Heb 12:22-25
James 1:12

1 John 2:6
He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

But since your save you don’t really have to.

(((The “Your Saved” gospel is another gospel and not the true gospel revealed by Christ and taught by His church))) Matt 28:19
Gal 1:6 1 Timothy 4:1 2 Tim 4:3

The saved are changed.

Catholics seem to be clueless about the dramatic change in a person's nature when they're regenerated.
Meaning a change in a person's heart, mind, and soul including their thoughts, worldview, priorities, values, desires, and attractions, repulsions, view of sin, and their view of God.
"The old has passed away; behold, the new has come."


Scripture teaches that real faith inevitably produces a changed life (2 Corinthians 5:17).
Salvation includes a transformation of the inner person (Galatians 2:20).
The nature of the Christian is new and different (Romans 6:6).
The unbroken pattern of sin and enmity with God will not continue when a person is born again (1 John 3:9-10).
Those with genuine faith follow Christ (John 10:27),
love their brothers (1 John 3:14),
obey God's commandments (1 John 2:3; John 15:14),
do the will of God (Matthew 12:50),
abide in God's Word (John 8:31),
keep God's Word (John 17:6),
do good works (Ephesians 2:10),
and continue in the faith (Colossians 1:21-23; Hebrews 3:14)

Scripture teaches that salvation is all God's work.
Those who believe are saved utterly apart from any effort on their own (Titus 3:5).
Even faith is a gift of God, not a work of man (Ephesians 2:1-5, 8).
Real faith therefore cannot be defective or short-lived but endures forever (Philippians 1:6; cf. Hebrews 11).

 

[Mr GLee]

Have you changed the subject from predestination (before you deal with those comments that were given to your question) to irresistible grace?

Irresistible grace to a Catholic comes from a unseen entity Queen mother they have named after our blessed sister in the Lord, Mary.

It is taught that she alone received the fulness of grace the complete cost of salvation. The rest of the world a unknowable remnant.

In the end its Limbo or Purgatory depending on the age differnce. Sufferings, wondering, sufferings and wondering after the king of lying sign to wonder after .

Denying Christ's sola scriptura exposes false prophet, false teachers (I heard it through the legion of father grapevine ) 3,517 and rising daily called patron saints

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

No salvation the end of the matter .. . . .Just wondering, sufferings. No rejoicing

 

[makesends]

Which verse of scripture do you reject?

Seriously? I tried to help you and now you do this? You very well know he doesn't reject Scripture, except as you use it.

 

[Eleanor]

Which verse of scripture do you reject?

I ask you the same. . .

 

[Mr GLee]

I ask you the same. . .

They must reject sola scriptura all things writen in the law and prophets.

The very foundation of Catholicism with Greek orthodox. . all the kingdoms of dying men of this world that look to Queen of heaven mother .

Making out invisible head Christ our husband without his bride .

They must deny the loving commandment of Christ the husband to call no man on earth Holy Father, Holy See, prince apostle of Rome, our vicar Christ etc. . let alone a legion patron saints . . his and hers gods in the likeness of dying mankind. . 3,518 and rising.

Matthew 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

 

[donadams]

God works in the human disposition of the elect to give them to desire his will.

No one can comply with Jesus' requirements for salvation and love him without the Holy Spirit's enablement.

Look up the meaning of predestined in the dictionary, it's not about foreknowledge.

Really explain please

1 pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Thks

 

[Mr GLee]

Really explain please

1 pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Thks

Grace that brings peace multiplied. Not divided an unknow remnant save the queen of heaven.

Teaching the non-venerable She alone received fulness, the complete cost of salvation. No need for Limbo or Purgatory sufferings and wondering, wondering, wondering .

It was not predestined to Mary our blessed sister in the Lord alone but the whole church

 

[Eleanor]

Really explain please

1 pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Thks

Foreknowledge of God = Before creation, God "knew" some in the way one knows those they love.

Elect = God chose those he foreknew to be saved

through the sanctification (influence drawing one from sin to holiness) of the Holy Spirit

to/for (which leads to) obedient saving faith and cleansing from sin.

 

[1Thess521]

Foreknowledge of God = Before creation, God "knew" some in the way one knows those they love.

Elect = God chose those he foreknew to be saved

through the sanctification (influence drawing one from sin to holiness) of the Holy Spirit

to/for (which leads to) obedient saving faith and cleansing from sin.

hey @donadams
Here's a direct question for you:
Is it possible that God's elect will not be saved?

 

[donadams]

hey @donadams
Here's a direct question for you:
Is it possible that God's elect will not be saved?

Yes multiple times

 

[1Thess521]

Yes multiple times

not once have you answered the question asked:
Here is the question: plain as day
Is it possible that God's elect will not be saved?

Let the guests see your answer,

 

[donadams]

Foreknowledge of God = Before creation, God "knew" some in the way one knows those they love.

Elect = God chose those he foreknew to be saved

through the sanctification (influence drawing one from sin to holiness) of the Holy Spirit

to/for (which leads to) obedient saving faith and cleansing from sin.

You said it was not about foreknowledge?

Thks

A simple “my bad” will do

 

[donadams]

not once have you answered the question asked:
Here is the question: plain as day
Is it possible that God's elect will not be saved?

Let the guests see your answer,

Sure