Predestination?

[1Thess521]

I just read through this forum…not every sentence…enough to get a sense of what is being discussed and how.

The Lord was recorded as having said…“A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.” (John 13:34-35 NKJV) We might need to work on this a bit around here?

Perhaps @donadams has a history around here that I am not aware of...none the less he got rolled pretty hard as it would seem...over a challenging question. It was not @donadams who brought "election" into this discussion initially...though the two are related...seems like things got somewhat sidetracked there.

Predestination is closely related to election.
The difference is “predestined” can be applied to many things such as where you will live, or how long you will live.
Whereas "election" is applied to specifically to salvation.

IOW if the discussion is about how Predestination relates to salvation: then it is Election.

 

[TATII]

Predestination is closely related to election.
The difference is “predestined” can be applied to many things such as where you will live, or how long you will live.

Sure...I read that the first time you posted it...did you read mine perchance? If we are going to have a "discussion"...you and I among the rest...perhaps you may suggest your opinion of the rest of my post...or for us the discussion of predestination is over...we agree.

Tatwo...

 

[Eleanor]

I just read through this forum…not every sentence…enough to get a sense of what is being discussed and how.

The Lord was recorded as having said…“A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.” (John 13:34-35 NKJV) We might need to work on this a bit around here?

Perhaps @donadams has a history around here that I am not aware of...none the less he got rolled pretty hard as it would seem...over a challenging question. It was not @donadams who brought "election" into this discussion initially...though the two are related...seems like things got somewhat sidetracked there.

An example of “predestination” is God the Father of creation who knew His plan for all things…before He created any of them. Does this mean that everything went according to His perfect righteous and holy predestined will for creation?

Though He knew all things…did He decree for example…for Satan to rebel? Did He foreordain Adam to fall in sin? Was it His predestined will or desire that caused evil, temptation and sin to occur? Did God the Father “make” Satan rebel or Adam disobey Him?

I suppose there are some who believe that the Father of creation caused that by His intention or will…that seems like a difficult proposition since God cannot lie…nor is He the author of temptation and sin. Sin is the work of the devil…the Son of God appeared to destroy the works of the devil.

My point…though it was God the Father who created all things through Christ…beforehand…which is where the idea of “predestination or predestined” comes from…He…did not create temptation, evil, lies, rebellion, disobedience and sin…He is not the author of those things.

So predestination or predestined cannot mean one was “created to sin” nor was one “created to be saved” without regard to their own life choice or will. It does mean that God the Father of creation put forth His will in creating all that has been created…and that He has and is making His perfect will known to His creation…but obviously to some degree…He allows some element of creation to choose His will or not.
So @donadams…how do you feel about my post on “Predestination?”
Predestination…G4309 – proorizó to predetermine, foreordain…to determine or decree beforehand.

Tatwo...

Keeping in mind that God has both a secret will and a revealed will (Dt 29:29).
God's secret will does not unwillingly grant what he does not wish to happen, rather it is the sole determiner of all that happens (Isa 8:10, 14:24, 45:7, 46:10), man determines nothing (Da 4:35, Ps 33:9-10, Pr 16:9, 19:21, 20:24).
Because God is sovereign he can ordain in his secret will (Ex 9:12, Jdg 9:23, 1 Sa 18:10, 1 Kgs 22:23, Eze 14:9, Mt 18:7, Mk 13:7, 14:21, Jn 13:27, Ac 2:23, 4:28, Ro 11:31-32)
that which is contrary to his revealed will (Ex 9:13, Eze 18:32, Mk 1:15, Ac 17:30, 1 Tim 2:4, 4:10, 2 Pe 3:9).
We see this with Pharaoh, where God's revealed will for him (Ex 7:2) is not the same as his secret will for him (Ex 7:3).
But we are judged by God's revealed will, not his secret will.
And because God is sovereign, he can in his secret will both ordain the fall of man (which is the cause of all sin) and
yet not be the author of it (Jas 1:13).

God's"desire" (1 Tim 2:4. 2 Pe 3:9) is his revealed will.
God's decree (Jn 12:39-40, Ro 11:25) is his secret will.

 

[Eleanor]

Watch and pray so as not to enter in to sin. Matt 26;41
(((unless elect and cannot sin)))

Strawman. . .

Who said the elect cannot and do not sin?
They are born condemned by the sin of Adam as is the rest of mankind (Ro 5:18).
They have a fallen nature as does the rest of mankind.

Only Jesus is sinless humanity. . .and you know that.

 

[TATII]

is it possible for the "Elect" to not be saved?

@donadams entitled the forum "Predestination?" his OP was the question..."In your understanding what does predestination mean or imply?" Am I incorrect in thinking he desired a discussion concerning "predestination?"

In post #3 you @1Thess521 changed the context of the discussion to “election and salvation.” While I can see the relationship among these concepts…and it is likely that donadams can as well…these were not his subjects…things started to look very unfriendly at this point as I see it…as I have already mentioned.

Do you feel that co-opting his discussion and changing the topic…and then in what appears to be a disrespectful manner…demand that he respond to you…is acceptable? Your post #8…”Will you be commenting in the thread that you started?” Surely you can see how he may be justified in some level of frustration here right? You changed it on him…this looks like manipulation.

He was cordial…he made an attempt to accommodate you…post #11, in #16 he looked to be asking for some detailed clarification as to the specifics of what is now “your forum”…concerning “elect and salvation”…in #20 donadams asks a question, makes a statement lists some scriptures.

Then in #21 you @1Thess521 repost your own question from post #3 that changed the subject of the forum altogether…which was not donadams concern for this forum…and wrote…”still waiting” almost a demand that donadams respond to you? It just gets more offensive from there.

The reason I went through all of this is twofold…one…donadams response in post #22 of this forum is grievous and heartbreaking here is a quote of his post…

Balls in the air, & you move the goal posts!...Un-level playing field!....Double standards!...No response,…ignore most of my points!...Six against one!...Rude people butting when we are trying to have a discussion!...Your understanding, interpretation, meaning is valid and acceptable mine in not!...Sick and tired of being on the down side of these and at the bottom of the pile!...Just saying

I realize that this is not uncommon in the forum atmosphere…however to do this to a brother is not acceptable in the Kingdom of God and it often times turns constructive forums into argumentative battles that create division to no good purpose.

At times it looks like people are just looking to fight and debate to no realizable or effective end for the people of God. At that point it simply becomes a “dead work” that offends…the Kingdom of God is not built in this way...perhaps Kingdom of God value was never the intention for these forums all along?

I understand that I do not have to patronize this forum website…it has been my choice up to this point to occasionally join in…if this type of behavior is allowed to continue there would be no reason to come here for dialogue, fellowship, learning, sharing and testimony at all…and perhaps others may see it the same…the Kingdom of God is not divided.

Two…are there responsible elders in the house to bring moderation to these forums?

Tatwo…

 

[donadams]

I just read through this forum…not every sentence…enough to get a sense of what is being discussed and how.

The Lord was recorded as having said…“A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.” (John 13:34-35 NKJV) We might need to work on this a bit around here?

Perhaps @donadams has a history around here that I am not aware of...none the less he got rolled pretty hard as it would seem...over a challenging question. It was not @donadams who brought "election" into this discussion initially...though the two are related...seems like things got somewhat sidetracked there.

An example of “predestination” is God the Father of creation who knew His plan for all things…before He created any of them. Does this mean that everything went according to His perfect righteous and holy predestined will for creation?

Though He knew all things…did He decree for example…for Satan to rebel? Did He foreordain Adam to fall in sin? Was it His predestined will or desire that caused evil, temptation and sin to occur? Did God the Father “make” Satan rebel or Adam disobey Him?

I suppose there are some who believe that the Father of creation caused that by His intention or will…that seems like a difficult proposition since God cannot lie…nor is He the author of temptation and sin. Sin is the work of the devil…the Son of God appeared to destroy the works of the devil.

My point…though it was God the Father who created all things through Christ…beforehand…which is where the idea of “predestination or predestined” comes from…He…did not create temptation, evil, lies, rebellion, disobedience and sin…He is not the author of those things.

So predestination or predestined cannot mean one was “created to sin” nor was one “created to be saved” without regard to their own life choice or will. It does mean that God the Father of creation put forth His will in creating all that has been created…and that He has and is making His perfect will known to His creation…but obviously to some degree…He allows some element of creation to choose His will or not.

So @donadams…how do you feel about my post on “Predestination?”

Predestination…G4309 – proorizó to predetermine, foreordain…to determine or decree beforehand.

Tatwo...

Thanks for being reasonable and recognizing virtue. Don

 

[donadams]

Strawman. . .

Who said the elect cannot and do not sin?
They are born condemned by the sin of Adam as is the rest of mankind (Ro 5:18).
They have a fallen nature as does the rest of mankind.

Only Jesus is sinless humanity. . .and you know that.

Thes 1

Elect cannot be lost

Thks

 

[Eleanor]

Thes 1

Elect cannot be lost.

Relevance. . .to the elect cannot sin?

 

[Arial]

It was not @donadams who brought "election" into this discussion initially...though the two are related...seems like things got somewhat sidetracked there.

The OP:

In your understanding what does predestination mean or imply?

An understanding of predestination cannot be given without introducing election. What followed as to posts were several answered to the original question and if you read through them, you will realize that Don never, ever actually addressed any of them, or anything else that was posted to him.

 

[1Thess521]

Who said the elect cannot and do not sin?

Thes 1

Elect cannot be lost

Thks

Nope : never said anything like that:
please correct yourself

 

[donadams]

Relevance. . .to the elect cannot sin?

Sin causes the loss of souls

Gal 5:20-21

 

[donadams]

Who said the elect cannot and do not sin?

Nope : never said anything like that:
please correct yourself

You said they cannot be lost

 

[Arial]

My point…though it was God the Father who created all things through Christ…beforehand…which is where the idea of “predestination or predestined” comes from…He…did not create temptation, evil, lies, rebellion, disobedience and sin…He is not the author of those things.

Something that is created is by definition a "thing." Temptation, evil, lies, rebellion , disobedience, and sin are not "things". They are actions. Sproul has an excellent video on this subject I will post in the video section in a moment. It is an important topic, but a different one than the OP.

Predestined can be applied in differing situations, always meaning destined for a certain arrival. The OP is dealing with predestination in relation to eternal life through faith in Christ. Those God elects unto salvation are predestined to arrive at that goal---to be in Christ through faith, conformed to His image. IOW they will be called and they will be justified through faith. They will be placed in Christ.

So predestination or predestined cannot mean one was “created to sin” nor was one “created to be saved” without regard to their own life choice or will. It does mean that God the Father of creation put forth His will in creating all that has been created…and that He has and is making His perfect will known to His creation…but obviously to some degree…He allows some element of creation to choose His will or not.

That is one theory but it does not agree with who God says He is all throughout Scripture. Also a different topic so I will not elaborate.

 

[1Thess521]

You said they cannot be lost

Because ; by definition that is what ELECT means
you are in error:
Can you be corrected?
for all to see

(all Catholic sources)

"By definition, the ELECT are those whom God infallibly foresees will be saved (Rom 8:28-30).
By this definition, it is impossible for the elect to be lost, precisely because God foreknows who will not be lost. But since election depends on God's infallible foreknowledge, we simply have no way of knowing whether or not we are in that category -- God knows with certainty His elect, but we do not. The elect are predestined in the sense that God knows them, and enables them by grace, to be saved"
//www.biblicalcatholic.com/apologetics/num21.htm

Election: The eternal choice by God of those whom He absolutely wills to be saved.
//www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/dictionary/index.cfm?id=33146

The Scriptures as well as the Catholic Church teach that God elects only some for salvation, and God knew of their election from all eternity.
//www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/is-gods-election-of-the-faithful-unconditional

Theological term equivalent to 'chosen as the object of mercy or Divine favour, as set apart for eternal life'​

The Catholic Church has no problem with referring to “the elect” as those who will finally persevere until the end and attain final salvation
Cathoic.com

And
And from your #1 Pope
1Peter 1: To God’s elect, ... who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood"

 

[donadams]

Because ; by definition that is what ELECT means
you are in error:
Can you be corrected?
for all to see

(all Catholic sources)

"By definition, the ELECT are those whom God infallibly foresees will be saved (Rom 8:28-30).
By this definition, it is impossible for the elect to be lost, precisely because God foreknows who will not be lost. But since election depends on God's infallible foreknowledge, we simply have no way of knowing whether or not we are in that category -- God knows with certainty His elect, but we do not. The elect are predestined in the sense that God knows them, and enables them by grace, to be saved"
//www.biblicalcatholic.com/apologetics/num21.htm

Election: The eternal choice by God of those whom He absolutely wills to be saved.
//www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/dictionary/index.cfm?id=33146

The Scriptures as well as the Catholic Church teach that God elects only some for salvation, and God knew of their election from all eternity.
//www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/is-gods-election-of-the-faithful-unconditional

Theological term equivalent to 'chosen as the object of mercy or Divine favour, as set apart for eternal life'​

The Catholic Church has no problem with referring to “the elect” as those who will finally persevere until the end and attain final salvation
Cathoic.com

And
And from your #1 Pope
1Peter 1: To God’s elect, ... who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood"

If you choose yo be obedient and faithful

So the elect can sin but it dont matter

No one can persevere on his own

Is Jesus the redeemer of all men?

 

[1Thess521]

If you choose yo be obedient and faithful

So the elect can sin but it dont matter

No one can persevere on his own

Is Jesus the redeemer of all men?

you are on an island on your own :
More knowledgeable Catholics than you clearly stated


"By definition, the ELECT are those whom God infallibly foresees will be saved (Rom 8:28-30).
By this definition, it is impossible for the elect to be lost

Election: The eternal choice by God of those whom He absolutely wills to be saved.

set apart for eternal life'​

“the elect” as those who will finally persevere until the end and attain final salvation

 

[Eleanor]

Sin causes the loss of souls

Gal 5:20-21

All mankind is born condemned by the sin of Adam (Ro 5:18) imputed to them (Ro 5:18a, 19a).

 

[1Thess521]

At least you did not mention akin thanks for that

D for dogma

122. The Human Will remains free under the influence of efficacious grace, which is not
irresistible.
123. There is a grace which is truly sufficient and yet remains inefficacious (gratia vere et mere
sufficiens).

131. Without special Divine Revelation no one can know with the certainty of faith, if he be in the
state of grace.

134. The grace by which we are justified may be lost, and is lost by every grievous [mortal,
serious] sin. Gal 5:20-21

Certain Truths

44. God gives all innocent unbelievers (infideles negativi) sufficient grace to achieve eternal
salvation.

Thks

Truth
To God’s elect, ... who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood"

Please provide any Catholic source that says it is possible that God's elect for salvation will not be saved in the end

 

[1Thess521]

At least you did not mention akin thanks for that

D for dogma

122. The Human Will remains free under the influence of efficacious grace, which is not
irresistible.
123. There is a grace which is truly sufficient and yet remains inefficacious (gratia vere et mere
sufficiens).

131. Without special Divine Revelation no one can know with the certainty of faith, if he be in the
state of grace.

134. The grace by which we are justified may be lost, and is lost by every grievous [mortal,
serious] sin. Gal 5:20-21

Certain Truths

44. God gives all innocent unbelievers (infideles negativi) sufficient grace to achieve eternal
salvation.

Thks

if you do not end up saved: then you weren't among the elect
If you do end up saved: then you were among the elect

 

[donadams]

Truth
To God’s elect, ... who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood"

Please provide any Catholic source that says it is possible that God's elect for salvation will not be saved in the end

Is Grace IRRESISTIBLE?