Predestination?

[JIM]

No free will?

Most certainly free will. That is a critical feature of creation. Without it, mankind is just another animal trying to get by as best that he can. Without free will, there is no such thing as sin.

Baptism needs to be in the form of Matt 28:19

I don't understand. What do you think is baptism in the form of Matthew 28:19? I think, without doubt, that the baptism of Matthew 28:19 is water immersion of the repentant believer.

And just cos were born again “justified” in baptism does not make is saved. Mk 13:13 matt 24:13

Thks

Yes, of course, one needs to believe in God all the way to the end. We are saved by grace through faith, and we stay saved by grace through faith.

I think maybe you misunderstood my statement that "it is those whom God foreknows will hear, believe, repent and be baptized in the name Jesus Christ, thus being born again, i.e., saved, that He chooses from before creation".

My point there is that there will be those who will hear, believe, repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Thus being born again, i.e., saved. God foreknows who those are. They are the one He has chosen from before creation.

 

[JIM]

Is Jesus “our salvation” yes or no?

God is the “source and first cause,” of all good, this does not exclude another immediate cause that is chosen and authorized by God to accomplish His will & purpose!

Examples:

Noah:
Moses:
Joshua:

(Primary cause)

God is the source, first, & remote cause of the salvation of the family of Noah from the flood!

(Secondary cause)

Noah is the “immediate” cause of the salvation of the family of Noah from the flood!

Noah believed God:
Noah consented to God will & plan of salvation:
Noah puts his faith into action by obedience to God & building the ark:


(Primary cause)

God is the source, first, & remote cause of the salvation of the children of Israel from Egypt!

(Secondary cause)

Moses is the immediate cause of the salvation of the of the children of Israel from Egypt!

Moses puts his faith into action by obedience to God, going back to Egypt and delivering the children of Israel from bondage.


(Primary cause)

God is the source, first, & remote cause of the children of Israel entering the promised land!

(Secondary cause)

Joshua is the immediate cause of the children of Israel entering the promised land!

Joshua puts his faith into action by obedience to God, and leading the children of Israel into the promised land.


These are “type and figures of our salvation!”



Mary & The great affair of “our salvation!”


(Primary cause)

God is the source, first, & remote cause of “our salvation!”

(Secondary cause)

Mary is the immediate cause of “our salvation!”

Mary found grace with God. Lk 1:30

Mary believed God. Lk 1:45

Mary put her faith into action by obedience to God by consenting to “our salvation.”

Mary consented to “our salvation.” Lk 1:38

And By the conception of the Holy Spirit!

Mary is the fruitful virgin who conceived by the power of the most high. Matt 1:

And by bearing in Her sacred womb “our salvation.”

And by giving birth to “our salvation.”

Mary gave birth to “our salvation.”


You would never say: “Noah had zero to do with the salvation of his family from the flood!” Or that “Moses had zero to do with the salvation of children of Israel from bondage in Egypt,” or that Joshua has zero to do with the children of Israel entering the promised land.”

Thks

The simple truth is that God used all sorts of people to accomplish His purpose, with Mary being just one of many. That doesn't make all those He used a cause of what He accomplished. Many, perhaps most, that He used to accomplish His purpose were not even saved. That is the point Paul is making in Romans 9. God used national, ethnic, Israel to bring His Messiah into the world. But most of them were not saved even though God used them for His own purpose.

 

[Mr GLee]

It is inane to make scripture fit your thesis. Sorry, but this doesn't wash.

Just to start with, Mary being the mother of Jesus has nothing to do with her being honored as co-redemptrix and so on. She was ordinary people like the rest of us, needing redemption herself. No need to go to proving that she is somehow divine or even semi-divine, just because she was chosen by God for his particular purposes. (Not to mention that no such thing has been proven by those logical leaps). She was blessed by it, as would any woman be who would have been chosen for that if not Mary. I can hardly wait til whatever RCC that are truly saved will be told when they meet her in Heaven. All praise to God —none to the "blessed virgin".

I agree .

Catholiscim is the sect that must hate sola scriptura but are rather under the authroity of what are called patron saints. And there Bible (CCC) oral traditons of dying mankind.

Spirits. . his and hers gods 3500 and rising in the likeness of dying mankind (patron saints) . Found in there own book of law of dying mankind the CCC. They must follow that false source of faith they call the Devine.

The law of the CCC .. . . Sacred Tradition (first and foremost ) and sacred scripture are both considered sacred deposits of the word of God, and should be regarded with equal reverence and devotion. The Bible must be interpreted within the context of Sacred Tradition,

Therefore dying mankind using our blessed by the mercy of the Father, Mary as queen Mother and Peter as the Pope (needed to make the unseen eternal Father as Christ working in us without effect .

Peter was forgiven of his blasphemy against the Son of man, Jesus

Peter rebuked the Holy Father and forbid the Son of man Jesus from doing the will of the Holy Father.

The idea of a leader that rebukes the God the Faithfull Creator ..Not today I would rather stick with Jesus the Son of man Not Peter the serial denier.

Mathew 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Even John or Paul would of been a better choice. Not jealous Peter

All things written in the law and prophets (sola scriptura)

All praise must go to God —none to the "blessed chaste virgin Timothy the new bride ".She is the mother of us all of the spiritual seed Christ the husband

2 Corinthians 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you (Timothy) as a chaste virgin to Christ.

He calls us virgins as widows

Its not about the dying flesh of mankind . . . the wrong kind of family. They are ones that must reject the loving commandment not to call no man on earth Holy Father, Holy See ETC

It would seem to be the kind of religion our Father puts his stamp of approval on. Those who were once without a heavenly Father as widowed virgins, not married have become a member of the chaste virgin bride The surrogate mother of all chaste virgins (Christians)

Satan who has no spiritual understanding, is not subject to salvation. He must make is all about lying signs to wonders after, The temporal things seen and not the eternal .

Sex (lust of flesh, lust of eye) his tool or badge of honor .Sexual sin has another foundation

Beautiful parable below

James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows (chaste virgin) in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

The special care of the household of faith

 

[donadams]

It is inane to make scripture fit your thesis. Sorry, but this doesn't wash.

Just to start with, Mary being the mother of Jesus has nothing to do with her being honored as co-redemptrix and so on. She was ordinary people like the rest of us, needing redemption herself. No need to go to proving that she is somehow divine or even semi-divine, just because she was chosen by God for his particular purposes. (Not to mention that no such thing has been proven by those logical leaps). She was blessed by it, as would any woman be who would have been chosen for that if not Mary. I can hardly wait til whatever RCC that are truly saved will be told when they meet her in Heaven. All praise to God —none to the "blessed virgin".

Do believe that Jesus is the source of all grace and merits?

 

[donadams]

Most certainly free will. That is a critical feature of creation. Without it, mankind is just another animal trying to get by as best that he can. Without free will, there is no such thing as sin.

I don't understand. What do you think is baptism in the form of Matthew 28:19? I think, without doubt, that the baptism of Matthew 28:19 is water immersion of the repentant believer.

Yes, of course, one needs to believe in God all the way to the end. We are saved by grace through faith, and we stay saved by grace through faith.

I think maybe you misunderstood my statement that "it is those whom God foreknows will hear, believe, repent and be baptized in the name Jesus Christ, thus being born again, i.e., saved, that He chooses from before creation".

My point there is that there will be those who will hear, believe, repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Thus being born again, i.e., saved. God foreknows who those are. They are the one He has chosen from before creation.

All men have the possibility of salvation, but not all are saved

 

[makesends]

Most certainly free will. That is a critical feature of creation. Without it, mankind is just another animal trying to get by as best that he can. Without free will, there is no such thing as sin.

The ability to sin does not require free will of the sort you espouse. It only requires the attempt to maintain it against God. Insisting on one's right to self-determinism is the broad way. Faith sees the narrow way.

It is useful to consider the difference between 'sins' and sin. Sin, besides the many other more active-sounding definitions, such as rebellion against God, is 'falling short'. It is a failure to reach or achieve or, maybe, in modern lingo, to 'align with' the glory of God. Sins are the result of the condition of the heart. Sin is the condition of the heart. It is rebellious, and many other related things, desperately wicked, misleading us as though a separate entity from us— it is 'the old man' in us. All that implies is a nature, and the resulting sins (plural) imply mere choice, for which we are accountable.

 

[makesends]

Do believe that Jesus is the source of all grace and merits?

The tactics of the LDS will not avail you. I will not go down your road with you.

Reasoning descending from the truth, mixed with inventions, does not follow the truth. Your cult assumes facts that God's Word does not.

 

[Tambora]

Most certainly free will. That is a critical feature of creation. Without it, mankind is just another animal trying to get by as best that he can. Without free will, there is no such thing as sin.

I would agree with that assessment.
One needs freewill to make moral decisions and be responsible for those decisions.

 

[Josheb]

In your understanding what does predestination mean or imply?

Thks

@1Thess521 's post is very good. I'd amend it to add the fact the "pre-" in "predestination is something that occurs eternally, or outside of time and space, outside of creation "before" creation was created. Therefore, the pre- should be understood as a revelation to humans in human vernacular meant for human understanding of something they cannot fully understand as long as they're living inside time and space. Eternity is extra-temporal. It is ever-present.

The word "predestination" doesn't actually need a prefix because the condition of destiny, by definition, necessarily and inescapably implies the future is decided. Adding the prefix, pre-, simply emphasizes the fact that the destiny exists and existed prior to whatever is destined.

 

[Josheb]

The tactics of the LDS will not avail you. I will not go down your road with you.

Reasoning descending from the truth, mixed with inventions, does not follow the truth. Your cult assumes facts that God's Word does not.

(psssst..... don's RC, not LDS)
.

 

[Josheb]

I think the real question is...'are there prerequisites to predestination? I can't find any in Scripture, can you?

No, I cannot, and I'm wondering how the logic of any answer to that inquiry would work since predestination is an extratemporal eternal matter.

 

[prism]

No, I cannot, and I'm wondering how the logic of any answer to that inquiry would work since predestination is an extratemporal eternal matter.

Yes, one in which there are no pre-s or post-s, just...I AM-s

 

[makesends]

(psssst..... don's RC, not LDS)
.

Yeah, I know. But his tactics were the same, there. They like to start people thinking according to their terms, start them down their way of thinking, trying to control the direction and boundaries of their reasoning.