Regeneration and born again are not synonymous

[Carbon]

And redefining the meaning of words.

Here is a real and correct definition for you @Dave

REGENERA'TION, noun

1. Reproduction; the act of producing anew.

2. In theology, new birth by the grace of God; that change by which the will and natural enmity of man to God and his law are subdued, and a principle of supreme love to God and his law, or holy affections, are implanted in the heart.

He saved us by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit. Titus 3:5.

 

[makesends]

You said:



Yes, as man must do something to save himself. John 3:16 points out that one must believe to be saved and "believing" constitutes something a man must do to be saved. I grant the God causes the man to do something with 100% efficiency. I know we're on the same page. Just semantics IMO.

Ok. But, that wasn't what @Eternally-Grateful was asking about.

And, I said, "...to become saved."

 

[Eleanor]

The cause of man’s belief in Christ is because of his salvation

Because of his new birth by the sovereign will of the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3-8).

logically: sovereign new birth --> gift of faith --> salvation (Eph 2:8-9)

 

[Eleanor]

You said:



Yes, as man must do something to save himself. John 3:16 points out that one must believe to be saved and "believing" constitutes something a man must do to be saved. I grant the God causes the man to do something with 100% efficiency. I know we're on the same page. Just semantics IMO.

What "man must do" is generally understood to be in his own power.
There is nothing salvific that man does in his own power.

 

[Eleanor]

I thought that if you were to hear it from someone that you know and trust, yourself, that you might believe it. The way that we're freed from the bondage of sin is to be born again. The message, believe and be saved. What are we freed from? The bondage of sin, and the penalty of sin. Faith begets born again. It is through faith that we are saved.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

So it's grace (new birth) --> faith --> salvation.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I don't claim to have all the answers, but I do believe that you're putting the cart before the horse. Remember post #200.


@Dave

Dear @Dave,

Re: #224–225

I’m not a scholar, but I respectfully believe your “cart before the horse” claim doesn’t align with Scripture.

It's most likely simply because I have neither cart nor horse - I have a God.

Your inversion of the order of salvation is simply incorrect . It's been proven incorrect in this very thread. But I thank you because I have understood a couple things better because of it.

Grace and peace,

Hazelelponi

 

[Carbon]

A person cannot be born again and justified unless that person is indwelt with the Holy Spirit. If a person is indwelt with the Holy Spirit, then they are complete in Him and lacking nothing (Colossian 2:10-14). Complete in Him comes before faith? Scripture says we are saved through faith, by faith. Faith is the spiritual vehicle that takes us to being complete in Him, in Him and lacking nothing/saved, because by/through faith we are indwelt with the Holy Spirit.

Can we honestly look at John 3:3 and believe that it solves everything? It's shocking to me that some great reformed minds have settled on that same silver bullet that doesn't say what they claim it does. It's sloppy and very very near sighted. I just listened to R.C. Sproul do the same thing last night on youtube. I've already given more probable definitions of that passage that fit with what I've been saying. If Armenians offered that same kind of 'stretched' evidence reformers would tear them to pcs. But how easily we allow ourselves to do the same.

Dave, this has been going on for too long. You have been asked a few important questions by a couple of posters, and you dont answer. The truth of the matter is, Regeneration and being born again are synonymous. People in the OT were born again/regenerated the same way people of the NT are. That is, by believing in Christ. Also, the Spirit permanently indwells the OT people the same as the NT people. If you disagree, then two things, one, that's fine, you are entitled. Two, show me in scripture where it teaches God does not permanently indwell the saints, either in the Old or New Testament.

​

We have a lot to be thankful for from the past reformed theologians. But remember, the Scribes and Pharisees in the Gospels were the experts of their day. You can see in Scripture how much they got wrong when Jesus confronted them. They had a lot wrong.

Many today have a lot wrong. My friend, I believe, you are one of them

If this thing comes full circle, and somehow the masses of reformed people Forest Gumped their way to a correct end result, that's great. At least I'll know how I got there. What is being offered as proof these days, by my estimation, falls very short.

You haven't proved anything yet, Dave.

Jesus is the Word. I need to know the truth because I need to know more of Him. These inconsistencies with Scripture need to be answered. That's what I'm looking for.

Well, Jesus said, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again. Why can't you just take his word for it?

I need to see born again in the OT. Not regeneration, born again. I need to see indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the OT. I need more information on the nature of the relationship between man and the Holy Spirit in the OT. I need more on how a man can come to faith, genuinely, with the Holy Spirit only being upon Him, and not in Him. I want to see if there is a true "in Him" in the OT. I've seen it a few times, but haven't yet looked into it. It could just be a poor translation ."in Him" should equate with being indwelled with the Holy Spirit. OT saints could not be indwelt. That a wrench in the machinery.

I gave you the passage, Ezekiel 36, to start with.

Here's a scary thought. What if man comes to faith from the flesh, but for selfish reasons? Is that possible? The thought has crossed my mind. Could the Spirit of God work in harmony with the selfish nature of man and bring a person to faith? I ask myself, what if it was the Armenians were the ones who Forest Gumped their way to the correct answers. God does reveal Himself to the babes. Would you be able to handle that? Do you have enough faith in Jesus to honestly seek the truth where ever it goes.

Matthew 11: 25 At that time Jesus answered and said, "I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes.

1 Corinthians 1: For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are,

Right now Carbon is thinking 'I knew he was saying faith comes from the flesh'.

No, I'm not. There would be a lot of scripture to overcome. I'll allow for the possibility that the questions that I have may take me there, though.

Dave

Dave, consider the OT saints, John the Baptist, for one. Do you believe he was born again/regenerated?

Or how about the apostles? Were they?

Jesus told Nicodemus when he asked, "How can these things be?" “You are the teacher of Israel, and yet you do not understand these things?

Dave, it is okay not to understand all these things.

 

[Carbon]

Well, Jesus said, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again. Why can't you just take his word for it?

@Dave if Jesus said this in John 3:3, then who are we to question him?

 

[Carbon]

Because of his new birth by the sovereign will of the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3-8).

logically: sovereign new birth --> gift of faith --> salvation (Eph 2:8-9)

Actually, the atonement reconciled to God. The rest is God's fulfilling in time.

 

[Eleanor]

Actually, the atonement reconciled to God. The rest is God's fulfilling in time.

Keeping in mind that we are not actually reconciled until we come to saving faith.

 

[Josheb]

I think if confrontation is the goal, then you should begin by confronting your own beliefs. Start by defining your terms. Then consider the premise being born anew from above is not monolithic. Nor is it something to be defined with any legalism that restricts what is otherwise a significant amount of diversity found in scripture.

I think it is going to be very important to correctly define the terms if that discussion is going to be had. For example, "born again," is not a wholly accurate reflection of Jesus' words and it has been popularized by the Pentecostal end of the Christian spectrum to mean things it did not mean in Jesus' day. The Greek, "gennethe anothen" transliterated means "born anew from above," not merely born a second time as "born again" indicates in normal reading. It's sad because there is no reason why our English Bible need to continue the practice of tradition when "born anew from above" would serve us much more effectively. I suspect much of the debate between born again and regeneration would disappear if the matter were framed correctly as born anew from above versus regeneration. One definition of paliggenesia is "new birth." Both come solely from above (God), so defining the term becomes necessary if they are going to be made entirely different phenomena. Gennethe anothen is a new birth from above and paliggenesia is a new birth from above.

Here is a real and correct definition for you @Dave

REGENERA'TION, noun

1. Reproduction; the act of producing anew.

2. In theology, new birth by the grace of God; that change by which the will and natural enmity of man to God and his law are subdued, and a principle of supreme love to God and his law, or holy affections, are implanted in the heart.

He saved us by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit. Titus 3:5.

Q: What were not saved by?
A: The sinful volition of the sinful flesh of the sinful unregenerate.


Defining our terms (correctly) is critically important. Even were we to entertain the premise of volitional agency in salvation, the minute that term is defined correctly the argument falls apart for lack of foundation. It's not the regenerate's volitional agency that is germane to the op's "confrontation." Citing the epistolary is, therefore, necessarily excluded except for those passages specifically, explicitly stated to apply to the unregenerate. Not a single one of the Romans verses cited in support of the o qualify.

Why is there no agreement on this matter between monergist and synergist?

.

 

[Dave]

Instead of just repeating yourself, could you actually engage with what I have put forth and refute if you can, WHY I say what I do is incorrect. That isn't done by simply repeating your position---the very position I went to the trouble to refute. It shows you are only able to work from your own presuppositions, that I find to be speculation based, rather than sound exegesis or considering the whole counsel of God. On not thoroughly vetting your interpretations of various scriptures. I will give examples of that when I respond to post #222, where you tie two scriptures together to equal an interpretation that is a speculation, and the two scriptures are not doctrinally or theologically tied together. It is using a scripture to interpret a scripture that in which the two scriptures are not from the same perspective or about the same thing. And certainly not about the difference between OT Regeneration and NT born again (as you have divided them) or about where the OT saints go when they die and that they are waiting for the promised new birth.

And in your above post, you have come up with a teaching on our freedom from the bondage of sin to be through faith and therefore faith begets the new birth. You are not correctly dividing the word of God. And you have not once addressed the definitions I have given of the new birth, in posts #175 and 207. Not have you answered this question:

That was from post#207. You haven't dealt with anything in that post. Maybe you haven't gotten to it yet.

Hi Arial

It's simple. Born again is the result of being placed in Christ (the Spiritual Church), which is the result of receiving the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, which is called the baptism with the Holy Spirit, which is the result of faith. Each step has been proven with Scripture. Also proven with Scripture is that OT believers were not indwelt with the Holy Spirit, yet they believed. That's proof that a man doesn't need to be born again to believe. He needs to believe to be born again. What do I call the act of God that brings a person to faith, I don't know. I know people want a place for it in their system, but I car not for their system. I only care that it's the word of God. If that leaves questions to be answered, then so be it. I do know that it's from God, and it's not born again. God draws. He sanctifies through His Word, which I will get into more later. I keep answering, but you guys aren't hearing.

How can a person be baptized into Jesus' death and raised up with Him (born again) without being placed "in Him", the Spirit baptism?

How can there be a Spirit baptism without the agent of that baptism to indwell the believer, the Holy Spirit?

How can there be the indwelling of the Holy Spirit without faith?

How can an OT believer have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, when God never took up residence in a believer until after the death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus? In other words, how can the OT believer be a Temple of the Holy Spirit?

How can a person be baptized into Christs death and raised up with Him before there was a death and resurrection to identify with "in Him" to make us born again? Remember, we are baptized into His death with Him, and raised up with Him.

Being delivered from the power of sin (born again) is the result of faith, not the cause of it. You said it yourself and believe it, Arial. I believe it too.

How can you glaze over these things as if they are nothing?

Dave

 

[makesends]

Dave said:
Here's a scary thought. What if man comes to faith from the flesh, but for selfish reasons? Is that possible? The thought has crossed my mind. Could the Spirit of God work in harmony with the selfish nature of man and bring a person to faith? I ask myself, what if it was the Armenians were the ones who Forest Gumped their way to the correct answers. God does reveal Himself to the babes. Would you be able to handle that? Do you have enough faith in Jesus to honestly seek the truth where ever it goes.

Perhaps the arrangement, "What if man comes to faith from the flesh, but for selfish reasons?", comes to your mind because of the weakness of your doctrine, arrived at prematurely.

You say, "...to honestly seek the truth where ever it goes."? Do you not see how easily, presumptuously and prematurely one accepts where the mind goes, as truth?

God knows, but even we mere humans can see, that often these threads are written and pursued because of that very problem. Your OP makes claims, assuming that your arrangement of thought (or, more obviously, your arrangement of words), is valid. In your supposed pursuit of truth, you don't even post a disclaimer, admitting that it is something you sometimes think, but, rather, you claim that the two words are in fact not synonymous. And, in the OP, you assume many other mistakes, making bald assertions without backup.

 

[Dave]

Ezekiel 36.
26 Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put My Spirit within you and bring it about that you walk in My statutes, and are careful and follow My ordinances.

Is this scripture not acceptable for you? does it contradict the ones you use?

The question needs to be asked, when was that promised fulfilled? I believe that it was fulfilled Pentecost.

 

[Carbon]

Hi Arial

It's simple. Born again is the result of being placed in Christ (the Spiritual Church), which is the result of receiving the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, which is called the baptism with the Holy Spirit, which is the result of faith. Each step has been proven with Scripture.

No, each step has not been proven by scripture, sorry, Dave.

Also proven with Scripture is that OT believers were not indwelt with the Holy Spirit, yet they believed.

Again, not proven by scripture. The only thing I can say is, "Prove it, Dave!"

 

[Carbon]

Hi Arial

It's simple. Born again is the result of being placed in Christ (the Spiritual Church), which is the result of receiving the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, which is called the baptism with the Holy Spirit, which is the result of faith. Each step has been proven with Scripture. Also proven with Scripture is that OT believers were not indwelt with the Holy Spirit, yet they believed. That's proof that a man doesn't need to be born again to believe. He needs to believe to be born again. What do I call the act of God that brings a person to faith, I don't know. I know people want a place for it in their system, but I car not for their system. I only care that it's the word of God. If that leaves questions to be answered, then so be it. I do know that it's from God, and it's not born again. God draws. He sanctifies through His Word, which I will get into more later. I keep answering, but you guys aren't hearing.

How can a person be baptized into Jesus' death and raised up with Him (born again) without being placed "in Him", the Spirit baptism?

How can there be a Spirit baptism without the agent of that baptism to indwell the believer, the Holy Spirit?

How can there be the indwelling of the Holy Spirit without faith?

How can an OT believer have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, when God never took up residence in a believer until after the death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus? In other words, how can the OT believer be a Temple of the Holy Spirit?

How can a person be baptized into Christs death and raised up with Him before there was a death and resurrection to identify with "in Him" to make us born again? Remember, we are baptized into His death with Him, and raised up with Him.

Being delivered from the power of sin (born again) is the result of faith, not the cause of it. You said it yourself and believe it, Arial. I believe it too.

How can you glaze over these things as if they are nothing?

Dave

Before I go on, I would like to say one thing. Thanks for bringing this Arminian, Calvinism debate about salvation being synergistic or monergistic from a different perspective. I can and do appreciate it, and I bet many Arminians would be proud.

Eventhough, it is the same old thing which can't stand up to scripture.

 

[Dave]

@Dave
You must remember also, the Spirit is in all things; if God removed His Spirit, all life would cease to exist. The Spirit indwells all, just in different measure.

I don't know if I would say it like that. That would be joining Him with what is unclean. I get what you're saying though. Funny that you mentioned that though, along those same lines....

I was pondering this last night. I don't know if it adds up to anything. But I asked the question, if being born again and justified is a one time act, and it happens as a result of faith, how does God draw a person and bring them to faith?

Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and the Word, are all called the truth. The truth sets us free. Jesus and the Holy Spirit literally set us free "in Him", but the Word also sets us free, I believe, in type. The Law, the Word, is still the Holy Spirit, Just as Jesus and the Word are the same. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God. That may be more profound than we think. Jesus said, in John 17:17, that the Word is Truth, sanctify them by thy truth. these were believers, but not yet indwelt with the Holy spirit. Not born again. That prayer may have been speaking of the immediate future, like Pentecost. But is got me to think. What if the process of sanctification begins before a person is born again. What is the process of sanctification brings us to faith and takes us to being born again, and continues on until we're finished being Christlike. How could this happen? The Word of God, acting as a OT type of the actual, somehow can draw a person to Christ. Somehow, the Word, which is the Holy Spirit, acts as a primitive sanctification bringing a person to faith. It's still from God. Jesus is still the Author and finisher of the Holy Spirit. It's got nothing to do with mans ability.

This would would explain the Parable of the soils. This would explain Hebrews 6, those being a partaker with the Holy Spirit, but still could be lost. This would explain Jesus saying "If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you," in John 15 (OT).

Could we begin to be sanctified by God's Word before we come to faith and are born again? Does God's Word, in "type" offer us something that allows us to overcome that our flesh could not overcome? In other words, the Holy spirit works in "type" in a person by them hearing the Word.

Just something that I've been kicking around recently. No need to reply

 

[makesends]

Hi Arial

It's simple. Born again is the result of being placed in Christ (the Spiritual Church),

What makes you think 'born again' is not simultaneous with being placed in Christ? Where is your ordo salutis shown with Scriptural proofs, without presumptive interpretation, in this thread?

which is the result of receiving the indwelling of the Holy Spirit,

Or maybe being 'born again' is the direct result of being indwelt by the Holy Spirit, whether we are even aware of it or not!

which is called the baptism with the Holy Spirit,

What makes you sure the baptism with the Holy Spirit is the same thing as being indwelt by the Holy Spirit?

which is the result of faith. Each step has been proven with Scripture.

Says who? No, it hasn't been proven with Scripture

Also proven with Scripture is that OT believers were not indwelt with the Holy Spirit, yet they believed.

Says who?

That's proof that a man doesn't need to be born again to believe. He needs to believe to be born again.

Says who?

What do I call the act of God that brings a person to faith, I don't know. I know people want a place for it in their system, but I car not for their system. I only care that it's the word of God. If that leaves questions to be answered, then so be it. I do know that it's from God, and it's not born again. God draws. He sanctifies through His Word, which I will get into more later. I keep answering, but you guys aren't hearing.

You need to get us past your own roadblock, if you want us to continue down your road. It is not as smoothly paved as you seem to think.

How can a person be baptized into Jesus' death and raised up with Him (born again) without being placed "in Him", the Spirit baptism?

Assuming that 'Spirit baptism' is the the correct term/concept here, your words turn on themselves. Earlier you say that being indwelt by the Spirit is the baptism of the Spirit, do you not? We say being indwelt IS the cause of those subsequent facts, to include salvific faith and being placed "in Him", and born again. So why the objection here?

How can there be a Spirit baptism without the agent of that baptism to indwell the believer, the Holy Spirit?

Same. If Spirit baptism is what you claim it is —i.e. being reborn— then we do say that the Holy Spirit indwells the believer.

How can there be the indwelling of the Holy Spirit without faith?

Once again: The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is not caused by faith. The gift —the Spirit of God, which is the very cause of salvific faith— is free, and so the faith he produces inside us is, too. We cannot produce it. Your questions assume, somehow, that the indwelling is somehow according to the volition of the believer née unbeliever. You have not proven otherwise. Your logic needs to begin there.

How can an OT believer have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, when God never took up residence in a believer until after the death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus? In other words, how can the OT believer be a Temple of the Holy Spirit?

Presumptive claim, that God never took up residence in a believer until after the death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus. That is not what the Bible says. It is what you attach to what the Bible DOES say. While I happily grant you, Jesus speaks in terms that TO US are implicative of some kind of displacement, that if Jesus does not leave, the Advocate will not be here, we can't use that verse alone to imply that the Spirit is always and everywhere and in every way only localized.

You are speaking as though the human view of reality is all there is to be considered.

How can a person be baptized into Christs death and raised up with Him before there was a death and resurrection to identify with "in Him" to make us born again? Remember, we are baptized into His death with Him, and raised up with Him.

What does a temporal "before" and "after" have to do with anything?

Being delivered from the power of sin (born again) is the result of faith, not the cause of it. You said it yourself and believe it, Arial. I believe it too.

Where did @Arial say 'being born again' IS 'being delivered from the power of sin'? Are you not misquoting her? That both happen is obvious in Scripture. That being born again is the result of faith is not.

This I see you doing with Scripture, all day long —take a passage out of context as proof-text, not to mention interpreting it according to your thinking, to mean only what YOU take it to mean, in an attempt to prove your thesis by logical use of your mis-use of the passage.

How can you glaze over these things as if they are nothing?

Dave

But @Arial didn't just gloss over those things. Your logical progression depends on so many presumptions that the situation is like a mosquito in a nudists' colony. Why should she consider "these things" you present as though they were solid reality, when there are better things to deal with than the imaginings of your mind? None of us have all day to bite all that flesh. It doesn't take much to satisfy a mosquito on such easily accessible flesh.

 

[Carbon]

I don't know if I would say it like that. That would be joining Him with what is unclean. I get what you're saying though. Funny that you mentioned that though, along those same lines....

Well, without getting too involved in a discussion on this point.....

There is nothing that could exist if God's Spirit wasnt indwelling to some measure. There are things that we just dont know about, they are beyond us. But scripture says these facts.

 

[makesends]

Dave said:
I don't know if I would say it like that. That would be joining Him with what is unclean. I get what you're saying though. Funny that you mentioned that though, along those same lines....

Dave, regeneration does not join Him with what is unclean. It AT LEAST cleans by the very indwelling. Where God is (and the Spirit of God IS God) the unclean is burned clear. God's purity is not compromised in this arrangement of the ordo salutis.

As for @Carbon saying that all things have the Spirit in different measure, I agree that I wouldn't say it that way, though I completely agree with him, that if God was to remove the Spirit, everything would cease to exist. If, by "measure", all he means is "degree", and not "way" or "kind", I disagree, but I don't think that is what he meant. It is in HIM that we live and move and have our being, likewise also all of creation does, which is not the same thing as the "indwelling" related to regeneration. But, anyhow, for the Spirit to provide the essence of existence for all fact, does not equate to "joining" with anything —certainly not with what is unclean.