Marian Dogmas

[donadams]

Are you saying your question did not intend an implication or insinuation?

No
Its by asking questions that we can learn about each other’s beliefs and gain understanding!

Understanding is one of the gifts of the spirit! Btw

 

[Mr GLee]

Turn it around

How does believing the perpetual virginity keep you from salvation?

Two kinds of virgins

Perpetual virginity according to what kind of authority.?. . Oral traditons of dying mankind called "apostolical successions?? Those who must ignore the loving commandment not to call any man on earth Holy Father, Holy See, our Vicar Christ, Prince of apostles .. on and on and on

Literal sex oral as a traditons of men. No way Jose.

The whole church is the chaste virgin bride as the one mother of us all

The virginity has to do with the first commandment having no gods before Christ the Husband . No fornicating with gods of this world (patron saints) . necromancy. Making the word of God without efect

Its never about dying flesh and blood . . .Satan's goal

2 Corinthians 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

 

[donadams]

... rubber goalposts...

Truth is immutable! Not rubber!
The church is eternal! Not rubber!

 

[donadams]

First you say Christ's, then you sound like it has to be both. Make up your mind.

If Mary was born in sin, how does that mean necessarily that she passed that "gene", "DNA", "curse" or whatever it is that seems to be passed from father to son, that renders him also sinful, to Christ? It doesn't.

Mary, like the rest of us, was born in sin. If you want Mary to be born of a virgin, then to maintain the logic of your doctrine, you will have to find virgins all the way back to the bottom turtle.

Jesus was conceived pure and immaculate because Mary was pure and immaculate. As Job said “Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? There is not one.” (Job 14:4).

Presence of God produces holiness!

Holiness befits thy house!

Knowing the holiness of God we cannot use the ark of the covenant for a bbq dinner or the holy of holies for a rock and roll dance, and why not?

Cos they are consecrated to God in holiness and must be pure and only for God’s purpose and cannot be used for an ordinary purpose without it being a sacrilege!

These are types of Mary most holy!

Mary is consecrated to God alone!
A vow of perpetual virginity!


Scripture says: “holiness befits thy house, O Lord” (Ps 93:5). Mary was Jesus’ “house” for 9 months so if holiness befits God’s house would not Mary be holy also? Just like the Ark and the Tabernacle she was set apart and consecrated to the Lord., the holy dwelling of God.

1 cor 3:17 …..for the temple of God is holy….. Mary is the temple, house, dwelling of God, God had need of Her to become man!

 

[donadams]

First you say Christ's, then you sound like it has to be both. Make up your mind.

If Mary was born in sin, how does that mean necessarily that she passed that "gene", "DNA", "curse" or whatever it is that seems to be passed from father to son, that renders him also sinful, to Christ? It doesn't.

Mary, like the rest of us, was born in sin. If you want Mary to be born of a virgin, then to maintain the logic of your doctrine, you will have to find virgins all the way back to the bottom turtle.

Since Gen 3:15 I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.
(Enmities total war, none of satan’s works found in Her immaculate purity)

Lk 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, Mary full of Grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
(Immaculate purity, full of grace, blessed)

Lk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
(Mary must have immaculate purity)

Lk 1:47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. (Preserved from all sin in virtue of the merits of the blood of the savior who is Her son)

Lk 1:49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.

“Things plural”

(Immaculate conception of Mary and the miraculous conception of Jesus)

Song of Solomon 4:1 Behold, thou art fair, my love; behold, thou art fair; thou hast doves' eyes within thy locks: thy hair is as a flock of goats, that appear from mount Gilead.

Rev 12:1 a woman clothed with the sun.
(Immaculate purity) a sinner? Lk 1:35

Since when does the Holy Ghost conceive in a sinner? Matt 1:20

Since when does sinner bear the Holy savior? The Holy Son of God? Lk 1:35

Ex 25 see how holy, pure, and consecrated to God’s holy purpose:


Jesus Christ took flesh and blood from a sinner?

The Holy Spirit of God conceived in a sinner the eternal salvation of God and the holy Son of God?

Anything consecrated to God and His service (purposes) must be immaculate clean and pure, covered in Gold. Immaculate purity!

 

[donadams]

A good tree!

Biblical Principle

A good tree CANNOT bear bad fruit!
A bad tree (sinner) cannot bear good fruit! (Savior / salvation)

Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

The fruit of the tree of Mary is our salvation! Matt 1:21 Lk 2:30 Jesus is our salvation! This reflects the immaculate conception of Mary and the miraculous conception of Jesus!
Lk 1:30 Mary found our salvation!
Lk 1:38 consented to our salvation!

A good tree (immaculate conception) Lk 1:49 God has done this and it is marvelous in our eyes!

 

[1Thess521]

Jesus was conceived pure and immaculate because Mary was pure and immaculate. As Job said “Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? There is not one.” (Job 14:4).

Did a "clean" Mary come from an "unclean" Anne?

 

[Arial]

The “things” plural are the immaculate conception of Mary and the miraculous conception of Jesus by the Holy Spirit!

The immaculate conception and the miraculous conception of Jesus by the Holy Spirit are the same thing. It is miraculous for a virgin (immaculate)to conceive. It is Catholicism that has changed, without any Biblical authority, the meaning of "immaculate" to refer to perpetual virginity, not only of Mary, but also her mother, grandmother, gr grandmother----all the way back to Eve----who as far as I know not even Catholicism claims of Eve. Even if they do it denies the Bible that says "and Adam knew Eve and she bore a son."

Mary was conceived without sin and was sinless to be the mother of God!

How was she conceived without sin unless her mother was also without sin and Mary was an immaculate conception also? You are relating loss of virginity to sin. And if that were the case, God never would have given the command to be fruitfull and multiply and fill the earth.

 

[donadams]

The Scriptures Reject Mary’s Immaculate Conception​

1. Catholics readily admit that there is no direct or categorical proof in the Scriptures of this dogma.
2. Despite the corrupt rendering of Genesis 3:15 by the Douay Version, Jesus Himself defeated Satan.
3. Despite Luke 1:28 being corrupted by the Confraternity Version, only Jesus Christ is full of grace.
4. Jesus was conceived immaculately by lacking a human father (Romans 5:12), but not Mary.
5. Mary acknowledged her need of a Saviour as much as any man (Luke 1:46-47 cp Romans 3:23).
   1. Mary thought her estate at the visitation to be low, surely not sinless perfection before God.
   2. She knew that it was due to her bearing Christ she would be blessed, not her own conception.
6. Why did Mary give a sin offering to be purified, if she was immaculate (Lev 12:8; Luke 2:21-24)?
7. If Mary was conceived and remained immaculate, why did God pay her the wages of sin in death?

The Scriptures Reject Mary’s Assumption into Heaven​

1. The argument of silence requires that Scripture does not teach what it does not teach, especially here.
2. Enoch and Elijah were transported to heaven, but Scripture plainly records the facts for us.
3. Catholics themselves realize they have no Scriptural evidence whatsoever, yet it is infallible dogma.

The Effects of Mariolatry are Abominable​

1. Remember the influence the Mother Church’s sacraments have had on Protestants and Baptists.
2. The first mention of Mariolatry in Scripture is by a silly woman – another Eve (Luke 11:27-28).
3. Exalting a woman obviously appeals to women, thus the captivity of silly women (II Timothy 3:6).
   1. False religion is maintained by superstitious control over women; Rome is not different at all.
   2. As was Eve, women are more susceptible to deceitful lies (I Timothy 2:11-14; I Peter 3:7).
   3. Silly. Deserving of pity, compassion, or sympathy. Helpless. Defenseless; esp. of women and children. Weak, feeble, frail; insignificant, trifling. Unlearned, unsophisticated, simple, rustic, ignorant. Weak or deficient in intellect; feeble-minded, imbecile. Lacking in judgment or common sense; foolish, senseless, empty-headed.
4. Mary is presented to Catholic girls and women as the great epitome of a godly Christian woman.
   1. What image comes to mind when you visualize Mary – is it Scriptural? No, it is Catholic!
      1. Compare the bold and courageous Mary to the gaudily dressed fragile doll of Rome.
      2. Why do you revolt at the thought of sweat, dirt, labor, and sex, let alone anger, sin, etc.?
      3. She is a pretty, serene, and sweet mannequin lacking a mind, judgment, and independence.
      4. Where is the hardworking, intelligent, and efficient virtuous woman of Proverbs 31:10-31?
   2. They follow her false humility and servility to provide the mindless religious devotees for Rome.
      1. Rome keeps her women – silly women – in such fear they remain amazed for life (I Pet 3:6).
      2. Believing it to be rebellious to think, they are the most gullible and naïve of all women.
      3. Believing drudgery and burdens a blessing, they provide many children and free labor.
   3. They follow her false freedom from sexual “defilement” to vows of celibacy as nuns.
5. So-called Protestants are not saved from the influence of this gross perversion of womanhood.
6. Let us pray and work to form some Jaels, Ruths, Abigails, Priscillas, and even some Marys, but not after the Catholic model of a mindless zombie in a “spiritual” trance with a halo.

The Hail Mary Prayer​

“Hail Mary, full of grace! The Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen. (Indulgence of 300 days; Rac #691).

The Hail Holy Queen Prayer​

“Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy; hail, our life, our sweetness, and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve; to thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this vale of tears. Turn, then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; and after this our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary! (Indulgence of 5 years. Rac #332).

The Memorare​

“Remember, O most gracious Virgin Mary, that never was it known that any one who fled to thy protection, implored thy help, and sought thy intercession, was left unaided. Inspired with this confidence, I fly unto thee, O Virgin of virgins, my Mother! To thee I come, before thee I stand, sinful and sorrowful. O Mother of the Word Incarnate, despise not my petitions, but, in thy mercy, hear and answer me. Amen. (Indulgence of 3 years. Rac #339).

Conclusion: Mel Gibson’s movie is introducing and catechizing American Baptists and Protestants to Rome’s Mariolatry.​

1. How much is Mel a Mariolater? Read the opening quote in the “Introduction.” And consider that he has recently blessed his only daughter, 21-year-old Hannah, to become a nun! Compare to I Timothy 4:1-3!
2. Bible Christians will not have anything to do with his movie, and they will earnestly contend against it.
3. Let us thank the Lord for the faithful martyrs that went before us, and let us live worthy of these witnesses.

Written by a friend of mine~J. R. Crosby

Are you gonna defend any more f these claims or accusations?

Thks

 

[donadams]

That is not even what I said. I said the immaculate conception was preserving Jesus from original sin, not Mary as you said. And I said original sin is an expression of the results of Adam's sin being passed to all his progeny (all of humanity) in their nature as sinners.

You are going to have to explain what you mean by that.

Preserved from what?

Since when has blessed meant remaining a perpetual virgin? SInce when are sexual relations between a husband and wife sin?

Since when has blessed meant perpetual virginity? Since when has blessed meant to be adored or in the case of the Catholics, (though they deny such is the case, worshiped. My gosh. statues are made of her and knelt before and prayed to.)

In your own words---what was told to her, and were those things performed?

How can we arrive at understanding if we don’t have the same terms or definitions?

There are different doctrines discussed here and you are confusing them

There are two conceptions that we are discussing

1) The miraculous conception of Jesus by the Holy Spirit!

2) The immaculate conception of Mary being preserved from original sin by the power of God in virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ!


I never said sexual relations between a husband and wife is a sin, it is of divine origin and the means of procreation

I just said Mary is blessed, i did not involve the perpetual virginity

No adoration no worship of Mary
Only God may be lawfully worshiped

Do you worship / adore your bed when you kneel to say your prayers at night? No vos worship requires intent!

“In your own words---what was told to her, and were those things performed?”

What do you mean by this or what is it in reference too?

Thanks

 

[donadams]

Do the healthy need medicine?

I think that the intentions of Martin Luther were not mistaken. He was a reformer. Perhaps some methods were not correct. But in that time, if we read the story of the Pastor, a German Lutheran who then converted when he saw reality – he became Catholic – in that time, the Church was not exactly a model to imitate. There was corruption in the Church, there was worldliness, attachment to money, to power…and this he protested. Then he was intelligent and took some steps forward justifying, and because he did this. And today Lutherans and Catholics, Protestants, all of us agree on the doctrine of justification. On this point, which is very important, he did not err. He made a medicine for the Church…
-Pope Francis

By what authority was luther a reformer, he was not a successor of the apostles and only they possess the authority of Jesus Christ!


What authority does Christ have?
What power does Christ have?
What mission / ministry does Christ have?

Peter, the I apostles and their successors have the same authority, power, and mission!

Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, even so send I you!

John 17:18
As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

The apostles are Christ’s successors!

They have authority to send others as well until Christ returns in glory!

apostle means one who is sent!

Therefore the apostles have authority to send more apostles or successors!

Apostolic succession!

The nations still need to be taught, disciples still need to be baptized and the church the new covenant kingdom of christ still needs to be governed!

Hebrews 3:1
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

Christ is an apostle, and has authority to send other apostles, the apostles also have this authority, so the apostles continue down thru the centuries as Christ promised! Matt 28:19-20

Keys of jurisdictional authority! Open and shut And power to bind and loose! Matt 16:18 and Matt 18:18 matt 28:19 Isa 22:21-22

Moral authority:
(Teaching)
Necessity of The being taught by Christ:
Two edge sword: defining truth and condemning errors, and Interpreting scripture.

Jurisdictional authority:
(Governing / administering)
Necessity of Peter and the apostles and their successors to govern the holy church.

Spiritual authority:
(Life of Grace)
Sanctifying thru the mass and Sacraments for the forgiveness of sin.


The apostles teaching is Christ’s teaching, Christ and His church are one! Acts 9:4 eph 5:32 Jn 15:5 eph 5:24

Christian rule of faith is Jesus Christ and His apostolic church, not the Bible alone! Acts 2:42 Acts 16:17
Matt 28:19

The canon of New Testament scripture & the public day of worship are decided by the visible apostolic church with the authority of Jesus Christ to bind and loose. Matt 16:18-19 & 28:18

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20

 

[Alive]

How can we arrive at understanding if we don’t have the same terms or definitions?

There are different doctrines discussed here and you are confusing them

There are two conceptions that we are discussing

1) The miraculous conception of Jesus by the Holy Spirit!

2) The immaculate conception of Mary being preserved from original sin by the power of God in virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ!


I never said sexual relations between a husband and wife is a sin, it is of divine origin and the means of procreation

I just said Mary is blessed, i did not involve the perpetual virginity

No adoration no worship of Mary
Only God may be lawfully worshiped

Do you worship / adore your bed when you kneel to say your prayers at night? No vos worship requires intent!

“In your own words---what was told to her, and were those things performed?”

What do you mean by this or what is it in reference too?

Thanks

Please show scripture for #2 in bold.

 

[donadams]

Do the healthy need medicine?

I think that the intentions of Martin Luther were not mistaken. He was a reformer. Perhaps some methods were not correct. But in that time, if we read the story of the Pastor, a German Lutheran who then converted when he saw reality – he became Catholic – in that time, the Church was not exactly a model to imitate. There was corruption in the Church, there was worldliness, attachment to money, to power…and this he protested. Then he was intelligent and took some steps forward justifying, and because he did this. And today Lutherans and Catholics, Protestants, all of us agree on the doctrine of justification. On this point, which is very important, he did not err. He made a medicine for the Church…
-Pope Francis

Where does scripture authorize a reformation?
When was the time of reformation according to scripture?

 

[donadams]

Did a "clean" Mary come from an "unclean" Anne?

The question was is who?
Who can do this?
Lk 1:37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.

 

[Arial]

How can we arrive at understanding if we don’t have the same terms or definitions?

We can't come to an agreement. I understand your definitions of those terms perfectly and I am pretty sure you understand mine. In any case I gave my definitions. The question is, which one is actually biblical---yours or mine? The only place we can find a definitive answer to that is from the Bible itself. So does the Bible actually say what you say using your definitions, or is it your religion that is defining those terms?

There are different doctrines discussed here and you are confusing them

I am not confusing anything and it is not doctrines that are being discussed, it is definitions of words that are defining the doctrines put forth. I both gave my definition and understanding of two things---keeping those two things separate.

This is how the conversation went:

Sorry for the confusion, you right original sin is in reference to the immaculate conception of mary not her perpetual virginity

That is not even what I said. I said the immaculate conception was preserving Jesus from original sin, not Mary as you said. And I said original sin is an expression of the results of Adam's sin being passed to all his progeny (all of humanity) in their nature as sinners.

Two things. Immaculate conception and what it is. Original sin and what it is. No confusing of the two. Just clarifying two incorrect definitions you made.

 

[Arial]

1) The miraculous conception of Jesus by the Holy Spirit!

We were not discussing that---that is something we both agree on.

2) The immaculate conception of Mary being preserved from original sin by the power of God in virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ!

I have already informed you that the immaculate conception of Mary preserved her from original sin on the merits of Christ is not what the immaculate conception did. It preserved Jesus from original sin. Mary was already born in original sin.

I just said Mary is blessed, i did not involve the perpetual virginity

At least twice you have used the scripture of Mary being blessed as proof of her perpetual virginity.

No adoration no worship of Mary
Only God may be lawfully worshiped

Note the parenthetical statement in my post that states this is exactly what the Catholics claim. It is no different than a Unitarian claiming they worship Jesus, because we are told to, and at the same time they do not worship him as God.

Do you worship / adore your bed when you kneel to say your prayers at night? No vos worship requires intent!

My bed is not a statue of a woman. If the intent in Mary veneration and praying to her is not worship---why the graven image? It at the very least, puts a dead human as a mediator between you and the mediator. Which is also idolatry.

“In your own words---what was told to her, and were those things performed?”

What do you mean by this or what is it in reference too?

Lk 1:45 And blessed is she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord.

 

[donadams]

The immaculate conception and the miraculous conception of Jesus by the Holy Spirit are the same thing. It is miraculous for a virgin (immaculate)to conceive. It is Catholicism that has changed, without any Biblical authority, the meaning of "immaculate" to refer to perpetual virginity, not only of Mary, but also her mother, grandmother, gr grandmother----all the way back to Eve----who as far as I know not even Catholicism claims of Eve. Even if they do it denies the Bible that says "and Adam knew Eve and she bore a son."

How was she conceived without sin unless her mother was also without sin and Mary was an immaculate conception also? You are relating loss of virginity to sin. And if that were the case, God never would have given the command to be fruitfull and multiply and fill the earth.

Same in your understanding

Try to see it the way i defined it or what do you want to call Mary being conceived without sin?

Please stop confusing it the perpetual virginity and the conception of Mary without sin are two different doctrines

Eve was a virgin in the garden and it is true adam and ever were created sinless by God, eve did not remain a virgin

How was she conceived without sin?
By the almighty power of God!
Lk 1:49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.

Never related loss of virginity to sin, i was married for 25 yrs it was no sin, and every individual is not required to be fruitful and multiply only in general, and a lower good can be sacrificed for a higher good

Matthew 19:29
And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

Which do you want accusations or an understanding

 

[1Thess521]

By what authority was luther a reformer, he was not a successor of the apostles and only they possess the authority of Jesus Christ!

i quoted a Pope

 

[donadams]

Do the healthy need medicine?

I think that the intentions of Martin Luther were not mistaken. He was a reformer. Perhaps some methods were not correct. But in that time, if we read the story of the Pastor, a German Lutheran who then converted when he saw reality – he became Catholic – in that time, the Church was not exactly a model to imitate. There was corruption in the Church, there was worldliness, attachment to money, to power…and this he protested. Then he was intelligent and took some steps forward justifying, and because he did this. And today Lutherans and Catholics, Protestants, all of us agree on the doctrine of justification. On this point, which is very important, he did not err. He made a medicine for the Church…
-Pope Francis

Sound like “faith alone”?
Matthew 19:29
And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

Lk 10:29 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,

30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

 

[1Thess521]

We do not agree on the doctrine of justification, never! The sola’s are heresy condemned by the authority of Christ in holy apostolic council, you don’t believe the bible much less justification!

If anyone says a man mat be justified by “faith alone” let him be anathema!

"But whatever in the justified precedes or follows
the free gift of faith
is neither the basis of justification
nor merits it."
-The Vatican
Thanks Vatican!!!
---------------
"...Luther's phrase: "faith alone" is true, if it is not opposed to faith in charity, in love
Pope Benedict XVI

Note: Faith alone is not opposed to faith in charity, in love
therefore; Faith alone is true
thanks for that Pope B!!
------------
And today Lutherans and Catholics, Protestants, all of us agree on the doctrine of justification. On this point, which is very important, he<Luther> did not err. He made a medicine for the Church…

Thanks Pope F
---
-from faithful, knowledgeable, Church-loving, Catholic Author Peter Kreeft
quote
"How do I resolve the Reformation?
Is it faith alone that justifies, or is it faith and works?
Very simple. No tricks.
On this issue I believe Luther was simply right; and this issue is absolutely crucial.
As a Catholic I feel guilt for the tragedy of Christian disunity because the church in the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries was failing to preach the gospel.

Thanks Peter K
-----------------
from the lead apologeticist at Cathoic.com

" Catholics do not have to condemn the formula of justification sola fide (by faith alone), provided this phrase is properly understood.
if the term “faith” is being used to refer to faith formed by charity then the Catholic does not have to condemn the idea of justification by faith alone. In fact, in traditional works of Catholic theology, one regularly encounters the statement that formed faith is justifying faith.
If one has formed faith, one is justified. Period.
-Jimmy Akin
thanks Jimmy