Man's responsibility.

[justbyfaith]

Standing at the door and knocking is not gentlemanly when it is given the definition you give it. Which is, I am such a gentleman I will give you the opportunity to be saved, but I will not save you against your will. That would be a Jesus who has the power to save you, but doesn't really care whether you are saved or not.

Is that not the Jesus who chooses out certain people for condemnation by default?

Actually no...

That Jesus actually cares about who is saved or not...and wants the condemned to be condemned...and that is an indictment on the person whom you call Jesus Christ.

I would say to you that your Jesus is not the Jesus of holy scripture (see 2 Corinthians 11:3-4).

 

[justbyfaith]

You show the stubborn mentality of Proverbs 1:7; Proverbs 12:1; Proverbs 12:15; Prov 18:2; Prov 23:9 in not submitting to the word of God.

I would mention that in 4 out of 5 of those scriptures you are in essence calling me a fool.

I would say to you that because of this, you are in danger of hell fire according to Matthew 5:22.

I care about your soul so I am issuing this friendly warning.

 

[justbyfaith]

The one who is righteous has the righteousness of Jesus Christ given to them via imputation.

Righteousness is also imparted (and practical) to the one who does what is righteous (1 John 3:7, Romans 5:19, Matthew 5:6).

 

[justbyfaith]

Huh? Calvinist aren't trusting in a choice they made but in what they believe. It is free willers that are trusting in a choice they made INSTEAD of what they believe. That equates trusting in themselves and refusing to trust in God for their salvation. They don't believe Him when He says He will have mercy on whom He has mercy. They don't believe Him when He says is grace just like His word will accomplish what He sends it to do. They don't believe Him when He says He knows before the foundation of the world who He will give to Christ. They do not believe Him when He says He predestines those ones to come to Christ in belief. They do not believe Him when He says He calls those one's. They do not believe Him when He says He justifies them. They do not even truly believe that He glorifies them.

What they do is give Him credit for the work necessary being performed by Jesus, but after that it is all ME, ME, ME.

I am a non-Calvinist and I believe all of those things.

Of course, I also believe that predestination is according to foreknowledge (Romans 8:29, 1 Peter 1:2).

 

[justbyfaith]

Of course you would not like that word and would not use it. Saying it is because He exists outside of time does not change what you are saying. Choosing one that you know will choose you is not choosing them, it is choosing what chose Him. It makes man the first cause of what God does. If He merely sees the end from the beginning and acts accordingly, is that not the tail wagging the dog? And who is the tail in that analogy? Man. But God tells us He IS the beginning and the end. So what does that tell you?

Of course in salvation God made the provision in coming to this planet and dying on the Cross for us. So, He is the first cause of salvation.

But I think that you, in your theology, would venture to decline the concept that man is the secondary cause.

The book of Proverbs is wisdom literature, not a book of doctrine and commands. What that means is that it is instruction in living wisely, according to the wisdom given by God. It frequently makes its point by contrast as is the case above. The Lord is pleased with righteous living, and condemns wicked living.

So, Proverbs isn't really inspired, is what I hear you saying.

Who are the righteous in this passage?

Those who are practically righteous (1 John 3:7, Romans 5:19, Matthew 5:6).

 

[justbyfaith]

makesends said:
Ultimately, God says, "Depart from me". How is that not sending them to Hell?

Answer the question.

They send themselves to hell by rejecting the Lordship of Jesus Christ.

 

[justbyfaith]

But it is no excuse

It would be an excuse if a person chose to reject Christ because God ultimately from before the foundations of the world chose to reject them; and also gave them only one option: to reject Christ.

Again I will say that this is not the Jesus of holy scripture (2 Corinthians 11:3-4).

The Jesus of holy scripture is love (1 John 4:8,16) and is not willing that any should perish (2 Peter 3:9, 1 Timothy 2:4) but that all (without exception) should come to repentance...

As 2 Peter 3:9 is most assuredly speaking of those who need repentance; and that includes every sinner.

 

[justbyfaith]

Strange reasoning, there. How does a description of what Election is not based on, mean that Election is based on nothing?


Interesting: At first you quote (?) CARM rather clearly demonstrating the unconditional nature of election, then you turn around and say that the "Calvinist doctrine" indicates that Election is not "unconditional" at all. Make up your mind!

The whole point of what is called Unconditional Election is to uphold that it is by grace alone that we are saved. It is not by any worth or work of the individual. But you know this, and continue to mock. Your only point is that they shouldn't have called it "unconditional election". Ok, fine, they should have found a better way to say that it is by grace that we are saved, and not of anything endemic to any of the saved. I think this can be called trolling, how you continue on with this.

Do you really think that people do not follow a conversation but are only reading the post that you are currently posting at any given moment?

 

[justbyfaith]

For one thing I know that He says those who are drawn to Him are those who are given to Him. John 6.

Which verse?

 

[justbyfaith]

You have not shown me that at all. It is impossible for you to have done so because it would be anti-biblical.

Soil type #2, in the parable of the sower, is not of the elect; yet they believe for a while.

They believe.

Believing does not guarantee that one is of the elect.

 

[justbyfaith]

There is a guarantee that I will endure to the end. John 10:27-29; Eph 1:13-14; Col 2:8-15; Romans 8:1-5,31-39.

Yet there are those who have believed that they were saved in Calvinism (and trusted in those promises) and yet they did not endure to the end.

They were probably never saved in the first place (at least, that is the Calvinistic view).

How do you know you were saved in the first place until or unless you endure to the end?

 

[justbyfaith]

Their sins were not forgiven for it is Jesus who saves through union with Him.

You are in denial of the plain meaning of the scriptures that I gave.

Soil type #2 believes for a while.

All who believe in Him shall receive remission (forgiveness) of sins.

What about that don't you understand?

 

[justbyfaith]

Keep trusting in that or turn and trust in Christ.

My full trust is in Christ; and I also know that I have Him because I made a decision to receive Him as Lord and Saviour from sin.

 

[CrowCross]

It is the basic teaching of the whole of scripture.

For starters, see Romans 4:1-8, Romans 11:5-6, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:4-7, Galatians 2:16.

That faith is a gift...8 For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God,

The context of post 17 asked why God saves some yet not all. Or, we can also ask why does God give some people faith and others not.

 

[CrowCross]

Righteousness is also imparted (and practical) to the one who does what is righteous (1 John 3:7, Romans 5:19, Matthew 5:6).

It is Christ righteous that allows you to do righteous things. It isn't doing righteous things that gets you Christ righteous.

 

[fastfredy0]

Obeying light #1 or light #2 will not save them; but it will put them in a position where they can hear the gospel which does save.

Well, if light#1 and #2 does not save them and they die before hearing the gospel then how can they be saved? This was the crux of the discussion: how is one saved without knowledge of Christ?
Giving context to my question: You said "free will" is the ability to come to Christ unhindered yet it seems obvious that millions of people cannot come to Christ as they are hindered because they never heard of Christ before dying. So there must be another way to come to Christ or they are hindered and your definition of Free Will falls apart.

In being given light #1 and #2, they are being drawn to Christ. Because if they are obedient to these lights, it will open the door for them to be able to hear light #3 (Romans 3).

??? What specifically is "Light #3" that I assume saves people from damnation?????
Aside: Do you have a URL to point to that explains this Light #1,#2 & #3 or is this your private revelation you got from God in a dream of something?

 

[justbyfaith]

That faith is a gift...8 For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God,

The context of post 17 asked why God saves some yet not all. Or, we can also ask why does God give some people faith and others not.

The answer is, faith is a choice that we make.

 

[makesends]

Is it not true that in Calvinism the sinner is condemned for his sin?

This is condemnation by merit (or the lack thereof).

Are you asking if Calvinism claims a person deserves his condemnation? Of course! What does the merit of the person for his condemnation have to do with this conversation?

 

[justbyfaith]

It is Christ righteous that allows you to do righteous things. It isn't doing righteous things that gets you Christ righteous.

I agree. However, the one who does righteousness is righteous even as He is righteous (1 John 3:7).

 

[makesends]

They send themselves to hell by rejecting the Lordship of Jesus Christ.

I didn't say they don't. I said HE does. You think the two are mutually exclusive?