Luther tried

[TATII]

Christ Instituted NO hierarchical Church.

Really?

While I can agree that the hierarchy was not a corporate hierarchy that we see in the "church"...He did
bestow...some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ...so there most certainly is a governmental structure and organization with in the Kingdom of God...the Body of Christ of which the Lord Himself is the head.

Tatwo...

 

[Carbon]

Really?

While I can agree that the hierarchy was not a corporate hierarchy that we see in the "church"...He did
bestow...some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ...so there most certainly is a governmental structure and organization with in the Kingdom of God...the Body of Christ of which the Lord Himself is the head.

Tatwo...

She don't deny that.

Really..

 

[David1701]

Thanks. What about the plastic? Is this gonna be messy? I'm thinking of that comedian with the hammer where everyone in the first three rows brought plastic. Could be like that scene in Lethal Weapon 2 where the guy walks into the room where the floor's covered in plastic and... well, you know . Plastic, or no plastic?

Sorry, I don't know the comedic routine; and I've not seen any of the Lethal Weapon films, so I don't know what you're referring to.

 

[Carbon]

Sorry, I don't know the comedic routine; and I've not seen any of the Lethal Weapon films, so I don't know what you're referring to.

Ha, I have seen the films, but years ago. And I still dont know what he is referring to.

 

[Josheb]

Sorry, I don't know the comedic routine; and I've not seen any of the Lethal Weapon films, so I don't know what you're referring to.

Ha, I have seen the films, but years ago. And I still dont know what he is referring to.

1) Gallagher Sledge-O-Matic comedy routine. 2) Henchman who screwed up walks into the head crook's office that's being redecorated so there's plastic on the floor to protect the carpet. Walks in, gets carried out wrapped up in plastic.

I've seen David handle RC's before . It's like me with Dispies. I'd chip in but sometimes it's fun to just watch.

 

[Arch Stanton]

I know that the laying on of hands is scriptural, in a variety of scenarios, and that it's not only done by leaders.

So my next door neighbor can 'lay hands on me'?

 

[Arch Stanton]

What, you dont agree with Augustine on the perseverance of the saints?

I agree with St. Paul as I run the race.

 

[Arch Stanton]

And there we have it! Fear.

Wrong again... no fear, just running the race per St. Paul.

 

[Arch Stanton]

1) Gallagher Sledge-O-Matic comedy routine. 2) Henchman who screwed up walks into the head crook's office that's being redecorated so there's plastic on the floor to protect the carpet. Walks in, gets carried out wrapped up in plastic.

I've seen David handle RC's before . It's like me with Dispies. I'd chip in but sometimes it's fun to just watch.

 

[David1701]

So my next door neighbor can 'lay hands on me'?

If your neighbour is a Christian, and the situation is appropriate, then, yes. There are many scenarios for the laying on of hands; you quoted several yourself.

 

[Arch Stanton]

If your neighbour is a Christian, and the situation is appropriate, then, yes. There are many scenarios for the laying on of hands; you quoted several yourself.

Through Church authority though. Can I become a pastor tomorrow?

 

[Arial]

Really?

While I can agree that the hierarchy was not a corporate hierarchy that we see in the "church"...He did
bestow...some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ...so there most certainly is a governmental structure and organization with in the Kingdom of God...the Body of Christ of which the Lord Himself is the head.

Tatwo...

Those are gifts, to his church, not hierarchical rankings. Though it serves the purpose of order in the meetings and oversight it is not governmental.

 

[David1701]

Through Church authority though. Can I become a pastor tomorrow?

You don't become a pastor through your neighbour laying hands on you. Becoming a pastor is via God's calling on your life; no man can give you that; although men can recognise it and pray for your blessing in that calling.

 

[Alive]

Through Church authority though. Can I become a pastor tomorrow?

If the Lord wished you to ‘function’ as a pastor then yes. You might function as a pastor for a week or for a year or more and then no more. You might then ‘function’ as a teacher within an assembly. These things, despite how some view them, are not certificate bearing professions. They are living functions in His Body.

 

[Josheb]

Through Church authority though. Can I become a pastor tomorrow?

Yes.

But not because the guy next door laid hands on you. I will note this is a red herring (that I suspect is a conscious effort to hijack the op and distract from the op's point).

You don't become a pastor through your neighbour laying hands on you. Becoming a pastor is via God's calling on your life; no man can give you that; although men can recognise it and pray for your blessing in that calling.

Amen!

Be alert to the red herring. We went from Luther wanting to reform and not leave the RCC to some guy next door laying hands on folks to become pastors. They don't usually come with signs....

Just saying

 

[Arch Stanton]

Yes.

But not because the guy next door laid hands on you. I will note this is a red herring (that I suspect is a conscious effort to hijack the op and distract from the op's point).

Amen!

Be alert to the red herring. We went from Luther wanting to reform and not leave the RCC to some guy next door laying hands on folks to become pastors. They don't usually come with signs....

View attachment 917

Just saying

It still deals with authority though.... so, no red herring

 

[David1701]

It still deals with authority though.... so, no red herring

Laying hands on people is certainly not the subject of the OP; although, I tend to be somewhat more lenient in humouring digressions than some.

 

[Josheb]

It still deals with authority though.... so, no red herring

A completely irrelevant matter of authority that has nothing whatsoever to do with Luther so, yes, red herring.

Luther tried to reform the Church. It was not his intention to leave the Church at first, but to Reform her.

Luther wrote to the pope.

"Most holy father, - may your holiness condescend to incline your paternal ear, which is that of Christ himself, toward your poor sheep, and listen with kindness to this bleating. What shall I do, most holy father! I cannot stand against the torrent of your anger, and I know no way of escape. They require of me that I should retract. I would be prompt to do so, if that could lead to the result they desire. But the persecutions of my enemies have spread my writing far and wide, and they are to deeply engraven on the hearts of men to be by possibility erased. A retraction would only still more dishonor the Church of Rome, and call forth from all a cry of accusation against her. Most holy father, I declare it in the presence of God, and of all the world, I never have sought, nor will I ever seek, to weaken, by force or artifice, the power of the Roman Church or of your Holiness. I confess that there is nothing in heaven or earth that should be preferred above that Church, save only Jesus Christ the Lord of all."

Luther really loved the Church of Rome and its pope. He had no intentions of destroying the Church. However, if we faith to keep in mind that the Holy Spirit opened Luther's eyes, not suddenly, but, by slow and progressive degrees.

They are evidenced of the important truth, that the Reformation was not a mere opposition to the Papacy. It wasn't war waged against a certain form or condition of things, nor was it the result of any negative tendencies.
Opposition to the pope was its secondary sign. A new life, a positive doctrine, was its generation principle - "Jesus Christ the Lord of all, and who should be preferred before all." And above Rome herself, as Luther intimates in the latter words of his letter. Such was essentially the cause of the Revolution of the 16th century.

So my next door neighbor can 'lay hands on me'?

Wrong again... no fear, just running the race per St. Paul.

Through Church authority though. Can I become a pastor tomorrow?

Luther, Arch, not you or the next-door neighbor.

If the RCC hadn't murderously persecuted and prosecuted the Reformers, heeded their concerns (most of which the RCC ended up changing in the end), and engaged their dissent scripturally, we might not be having this conversation and RCC and Prot boards would not exist. Luther was RC and did NOT want to leave the RCC. Those are two indisputable facts of history. Luther attempted to address the problems within the RCC scripturally and for doing so he was persecuted. If the RCC had gotten their hands on him it's likely they would have killed him. The RCC was selling forgiveness. That is wrong. Pope Leo X (who was Pope when Luther nailed the 95 Theses to the Wittenburg door), was a profligate spender whose lust prompted a serious of very bad doctrines and practices. You asked if a neighbor could lay hands on someone to make them a pastor.... when Pope Leo X was the last Pope elected who'd never been in a priestly order prior to his selection as pope! The irony is palpable. By your own standards you'd be compelled to acknowledge the veracity of Luther's concerns. Leo was appointed Pope due to his family's (the Medicis, who were one of the most corrupt and depraved group of people to have ever lived) political power and influence. He stacked the court of the Cardinals to empower his plans (which is politically sharp and astute, but also fleshly depravity). The RCC reformed that practice..... after having unjustly killed many Reformers and Protestants. He personally pitted nations against one another and was directly instrumental in causing wars that killed thousands (while ignoring the growing, pending conflict with Islam to his east). He failed to grasp the importance of Luther's concerns and the commensurate movement and, as a consequence of his own short-sightedness and heavy-handed over-reaction, nearly single-handedly caused a schism in the Church so large it made the Great Schism look like a trial run. Despite his many good qualities and great accomplishments, he was a man of depraved indifference and deception.

And somehow the institution of the RCC let that happen and supported it.

That is the exact same institution you defend without honest acknowledgment of the facts of history.

So my next door neighbor can 'lay hands on me'?

Luther. This op is about Luther's experience with the RCC, not your neighbor's.

 

[Arch Stanton]

Laying hands on people is certainly not the subject of the OP; although, I tend to be somewhat more lenient in humouring digressions than some.

It is though... who is Luther to reform the Church?

Luther tried to reform the Church. It was not his intention to leave the Church at first, but to Reform her.

 

[Arch Stanton]

Luther, Arch, not you or the next-door neighbor.

According to you, we are all the same... What makes Luther any different than me or my neighbor?

won't read the rest due to your insistence on the red herring