Luther tried

[Arch Stanton]

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when one doesn't get his way, one changes his tune -- good ol' Martin

 

[Arch Stanton]

The body of Christ consists of brothers and sisters in the Lord - all equal before God. There are leaders, but not commanders; and, the leaders only have authority to declare as truth what has been declared already, in the Bible.

False... the Bible was not around in AD 42...Church hierarchy! Peter and the other apostles had the authority. Then, through the laying on of hands, the next generation became bishops. [Clement, Ignatius, Polycarp, etc.]

 

[Josheb]

Luther tried to reform the Church. It was not his intention to leave the Church at first, but to Reform her.

Luther wrote to the pope.

"Most holy father, - may your holiness condescend to incline your paternal ear, which is that of Christ himself, toward your poor sheep, and listen with kindness to this bleating. What shall I do, most holy father! I cannot stand against the torrent of your anger, and I know no way of escape. They require of me that I should retract. I would be prompt to do so, if that could lead to the result they desire. But the persecutions of my enemies have spread my writing far and wide, and they are to deeply engraven on the hearts of men to be by possibility erased. A retraction would only still more dishonor the Church of Rome, and call forth from all a cry of accusation against her. Most holy father, I declare it in the presence of God, and of all the world, I never have sought, nor will I ever seek, to weaken, by force or artifice, the power of the Roman Church or of your Holiness. I confess that there is nothing in heaven or earth that should be preferred above that Church, save only Jesus Christ the Lord of all."

Luther really loved the Church of Rome and its pope. He had no intentions of destroying the Church. However, if we faith to keep in mind that the Holy Spirit opened Luther's eyes, not suddenly, but, by slow and progressive degrees.

They are evidenced of the important truth, that the Reformation was not a mere opposition to the Papacy. It wasn't war waged against a certain form or condition of things, nor was it the result of any negative tendencies.
Opposition to the pope was its secondary sign. A new life, a positive doctrine, was its generation principle - "Jesus Christ the Lord of all, and who should be preferred before all." And above Rome herself, as Luther intimates in the latter words of his letter. Such was essentially the cause of the Revolution of the 16th century.

That is true, but do you mean "secondary," or "subsequent"? Luther had some decidedly harsh words to say about the Pope and Cardinals, like HERE (make sure to close the redirect quickly).

To what degree do you think Luther saw the problems in the RCC as eschatological when he nailed up the 95 Theses?

 

[David1701]

False... the Bible was not around in AD 42...Church hierarchy! Peter and the other apostles had the authority. Then, through the laying on of hands, the next generation became bishops. [Clement, Ignatius, Polycarp, etc.]

The Bible, in A.D. 42, consisted of the OT books, along with the orally transmitted teachings of Jesus and the apostles.

Church leaders (pastor/teachers, elders and deacons) are to lead by example, not diktat. The only things they are allowed to declare as commands are the things commanded in the Bible.

 

[Josheb]

Well now, that's interesting! You are declaring that the "Pope" has no authority to change what Christ instituted: I agree! So, when are you going to leave RCism and join the body of Christ?

The body of Christ consists of brothers and sisters in the Lord - all equal before God. There are leaders, but not commanders; and, the leaders only have authority to declare as truth what has been declared already, in the Bible. In the period before the NT had been written down, the truths were declared orally.

The Bible, in A.D. 42, consisted of the OT books, along with the orally transmitted teachings of Jesus and the apostles. Church leaders (pastor/teachers, elders and deacons) are to lead by example, not diktat. The only things they are allowed to declare as commands are the things commanded in the Bible.

(Josh pulls up chair to watch David at work in his area of strength) Should I grab some plastic?

 

[Arch Stanton]

The Bible, in A.D. 42, consisted of the OT books, along with the orally transmitted teachings of Jesus and the apostles.

Church leaders (pastor/teachers, elders and deacons) are to lead by example, not diktat. The only things they are allowed to declare as commands are the things commanded in the Bible.

That is a false premise. The Bible does not tell you that.

 

[makesends]

when one doesn't get his way, one changes his tune -- good ol' Martin

Witness how one changes the goalposts or presents red herrings when his argument fails...

 

[Ladodgers6]

when one doesn't get his way, one changes his tune -- good ol' Martin

Like it was already said, Luther was appealing to Pope to see the errors of the church. He wasn't trying to destroy it but reformed back to Ad Fontes! Good ol' Luther, right?

 

[Carbon]

False... the Bible was not around in AD 42...Church hierarchy! Peter and the other apostles had the authority. Then, through the laying on of hands, the next generation became bishops. [Clement, Ignatius, Polycarp, etc.]

You sure didn't have the ECFs supporting a pope during those times either. I't wasn't until the later 4th century. That some started to think that way and then very few.

 

[Carbon]

That is true, but do you mean "secondary," or "subsequent"? Luther had some decidedly harsh words to say about the Pope and Cardinals, like HERE (make sure to close the redirect quickly).

Yes, he had very harsh words to say later. Going as far as believing the pope was the Antichrist. But at first, he wanted to reform the church back to the bible because it had drifted and was corrupt.

To what degree do you think Luther saw the problems in the RCC as eschatological when he nailed up the 95 Theses?

Well, what got him started in John Tetzel and the selling of indulgencies.

 

[Carbon]

You should reread for clarity David....


Christ instituted ONE hierarchical Church and gave the keys to PETER.

Ha, you should also reread the scripture. Ever considered attending a biblical church? I know you being a RC are quite used to others reading and thinking for you., as the pope and priests do. And how they twist scripture.

But try a biblical Protestant church.

 

[Josheb]

Yes, he had very harsh words to say later. Going as far as believing the pope was the Antichrist. But at first, he wanted to reform the church back to the bible because it had drifted and was corrupt.

Which would necessarily entail ditching the then current Pope and Cardinals, if not the Papal system that permitted and empowered those corrupt and immoral people to have the position, authority, and power they had.

"There is buying, selling, bartering, trading, trafficking, lying, deceiving, robbing, stealing, luxury, harlotry, knavery and every sort of contempt of God, and even the rule of Antichrist could not be more scandalous."​

“It is only the power of the devil and of Antichrist which resists the things that serve for the edification of Christendom."​

"If he is not Antichrist, then let someone else tell me who he can be!”​

Subsequent, for sure. Secondary (or primary or tertiary)?

Opposition to the pope was its secondary sign.

Would you please clarify that? Thx

Well, what got him started in John Tetzel and the selling of indulgencies.

Not an answer to the question asked.

To what degree do you think Luther saw the problems in the RCC as eschatological when he nailed up the 95 Theses? Was Luther eschatologically-minded that day he nailed up the 95 Theses? Was he thinking eschatologically when he started what would prove to be a century-long radical reconstitution of the institution?


To what degree do you think Luther saw the problems in the RCC as eschatological when he nailed up the 95 Theses?

 

[Arch Stanton]

You sure didn't have the ECFs supporting a pope during those times either. I't wasn't until the later 4th century. That some started to think that way and then very few.

Clement of Rome​

Accept our counsel and you will have nothing to regret. . . . If anyone disobeys the things which have been said by him [Jesus] through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in no small danger. We, however, shall be innocent of this sin and will pray with entreaty and supplication that the Creator of all may keep unharmed the number of his elect (Letter to the Corinthians 58:2, 59:1[A.D. 95]).

Who is 'us'? Clement of Rome

 

[Arch Stanton]

Ha, you should also reread the scripture. Ever considered attending a biblical church?

I attend the first biblical Church Carbon.

I know you being a RC are quite used to others reading and thinking for you.

I still for those protestants though.

But try a biblical Protestant church.

and risk my salvation? Oh my!!!!

 

[Alive]

and risk my salvation? Oh my!!!!

Finally! So, to be sure I read you correctly, OK.
Do you believe there is salvation only in the RCC?

 

[Arch Stanton]

Finally! So, to be sure I read you correctly, OK.
Do you believe there is salvation only in the RCC?

Will you be responding to any of my posts from the past few days?

 

[Carbon]

I attend the first biblical Church Carbon.

I still for those protestants though.

and risk my salvation? Oh my!!!!

Well' at least you're genuine, I'll give you that.

 

[Carbon]

Finally! So, to be sure I read you correctly, OK.
Do you believe there is salvation only in the RCC?

True Roman catholic's believe there is salvation only in their church. . Unless their pope changes his mind and says otherwise.

 

[Arch Stanton]

Well' at least you're genuine, I'll give you that.

Do you come across fake Catholics?

 

[Carbon]

Do you come across fake Catholics?

No, dont think so. When you're controlled with fear, not usually. Some are just more deceived than others.