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If it's True That Justification by Faith ...

The Roman road is something made up by Arminians. The epistle to the Romans does not support it.

I just used it in my church. I have seen it used many a time, and it is an amazing passage

in chapters 1 - 8 we have the problem and the solution.

in chapters 9 - 11 for some reason Paul takes a break to settle the jewish problem

then chapter 12 - 16 is Christian growth. Now that I am saved, Now that I Have the assurance of salvation. Now what.

The Armenians do not even believe there is now there for no condemnation. so I do not see them making this up.

The first few chapters of Ephesians does a good job to. as does the first 7 chapters of John. as the gospel in given in almost every book (I think John 2 is the only one where some gospel message is not given)
 
Excuse me, but I'm not so dense as to believe my view is that all NT history and situations were about. I do know what led to the Dark Ages, and that Justification by faith alone led us out of the Dark Ages... Besides, you don't know what I or anyone else thinks. I identify more withe letter to the Romans than the Epistle to the Thessalonian Church.
I would not suggest you chose one epistle over another. All scripture is God breathed. Just saying
 
ok, but I don't follow, since the cry of the Church since the reformation has been justification, is that doctrine by which the Church stands or falls. Wouldn't you agree? In constructing a building, we should start with the foundation. Or do you think a different doctrine should be the foundation of the Church?
the foundation is Christ.
 
I just used it in my church. I have seen it used many a time, and it is an amazing passage

in chapters 1 - 8 we have the problem and the solution.

in chapters 9 - 11 for some reason Paul takes a break to settle the jewish problem

then chapter 12 - 16 is Christian growth. Now that I am saved, Now that I Have the assurance of salvation. Now what.

The Armenians do not even believe there is now there for no condemnation. so I do not see them making this up.

The first few chapters of Ephesians does a good job to. as does the first 7 chapters of John. as the gospel in given in almost every book (I think John 2 is the only one where some gospel message is not given)

The Jewish problem goes back to chs 2 and 3, actually. It's huge in Rome, because they were evicted by Claudius and only recently back, to find that Christian/Messiah fellowships were doing well apart from them.
 
The Jewish problem goes back to chs 2 and 3, actually. It's huge in Rome, because they were evicted by Claudius and only recently back, to find that Christian/Messiah fellowships were doing well apart from them.
chapter 2 and 3 have nothing to do with chapters 9 - 11..

Paul talks to the gentiles (ch 1_ and tells them what God has against them

then in chapter 2 he turns to the Jews and tells them what he has against them

Chapter 3 I would see as more universal relating to everyone (all have sinned)
 
Could you send an example of your last point? --a calling card of keeping the law more perfectly. Is it things that are Judaic?
Simple, look at your local evangelical bookstore, filled with 'how to' books, sadly, the Reformed have pretty much the same diet of law rather than gospel.
 
I just used it in my church. I have seen it used many a time, and it is an amazing passage

in chapters 1 - 8 we have the problem and the solution.

in chapters 9 - 11 for some reason Paul takes a break to settle the jewish problem

then chapter 12 - 16 is Christian growth. Now that I am saved, Now that I Have the assurance of salvation. Now what.

The Armenians do not even believe there is now there for no condemnation. so I do not see them making this up.

The first few chapters of Ephesians does a good job to. as does the first 7 chapters of John. as the gospel in given in almost every book (I think John 2 is the only one where some gospel message is not given)
Ok, I won't call you an Arminian. How about a synergist I say that's pretty accurate.
And again, Romans does not help you with that. If you'd like to explain where and how it helps with that, be my guest.
 
If it's true, that 'justification by faith' is the article by which the church stands or falls, then why did not Paul write the book of Romans first, since the book of Romans is foundational to the article of justification?
Instead, most scholars believe it was 1 Thessalonians. At least Martin Luther was consistent in this that he placed Romans as the first written epistle
How about clarifying the specific point of inquiry or comment being asserted, and asserted for discussion?

Is the point being asserted "Romans is the first epistle written because it teaches the article by which the Church stands or falls"? If so, then a false cause fallacy has been committed (foundational articles do not determine the date when something is written).

Is the point being asserted, "Justification cannot be the article upon which the Church stands or falls because Paul did not write Romans until late in his life/career"? If so, then another false cause fallacy is being employed because the veracity of an article is not determined by when it was written.

Is the point being asserted, "Martin Luther was correct to assert an early date for Romans because of the inclusion of the foundational article of justification by faith (upon which the Church stands or falls), and all the other theologians over the last millennium have all been wrong"? If so, then not only is that another false cause fallacy but it's also an appeal to authority and a straw man because Luther considered Romans "first" in ordinance, not chronology. Furthermore, I'm not sure anyone can assert Luther's perspective on the veracity and chronology of the Bible's books over more scientific measures given his mixed history as a textual critic. He was not an expert on the matter. Just saying. 😒

Beside all of the above, I would not call justification by faith (alone) the article upon which the Church stands or falls. That article would be either the divinity of Christ or the resurrection. If Christ is not divine, then he's not the monogene sarx egentos and we are all still lost and dead in sin. If there is no resurrection, then not only are we all still lost and dead in sin but we are all also the most pitiful people who ever live. When speaking of any "article," it must be clarified whether the word is a reference to an axiom, a logical necessity or a doctrinal supposition. There is context to the Reformation's stand on justification by faith. That context is as a protest against the Roman Catholic viewpoint justification is not by faith alone. Furthermore, justification in Roman Catholicism is synonymous with salvation and that is not a correct reflect of scripture (or Protestantism per se). In addition to these points, it must be understood that Paul's commentary on justification in Romans 3-4 and Galatians 2-3 (as well as that of James in his epistle) was written to those already saved. When Paul states "you have been justified....." that audience is the already-saved, not the unregenerate. Even when he states, "we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law" (Rom. 3:28) he is writing about the saints, those already living in a God initiated Christological covenant relationship. He's not writing about Caral-Supe, Olmecs, Mayans, Yayoi, or Aborigines of the first century.

Or is this op about the chronology of the Pauline epistles because there are fairly well-established reasons for the consensus (but I do not read any of them mentioned in the op)?


What is the specific point of inquiry or comment intended for discussion?
 
Ok, I won't call you an Arminian. How about a synergist I say that's pretty accurate.
Both would be in error

[MOD EDIT: Rule-violating text removed from post.]
 
Last edited by a moderator:
How about clarifying the specific point of inquiry or comment being asserted, and asserted for discussion?
Why? Others seem to have no problem grasping the topic.
 
Because the point is unstated, that's why. Why would the author of any op refuse to state his position, or at least state his/her specific point of inquiry?
Others seem to have no problem grasping the topic.
That is incorrect. There are seven respondents to this op and every single one of them has addressed the op differently. If you follow their replies, you'll end up having seven different conversations with six different people and none of them may have anything to do with what was originally intended. We, you and I, have, in fact, just wasted one exchange of posts when it would have been much easier for you and much, much, much more beneficial for everyone else to simply state your thesis. The op asks a question it never answers and asserts what appears to be a non sequitur.
Others seem to have no problem grasping the topic.
Really? Then tell me what that is. ;)
 
Both would be in error

But I have come to see. Name calling and mass assumptions seems to be normal in here.

I can also see why there are no arminians in here..
Perhaps if you knew what a synergist was, you would be okay with it. :unsure: yes. I believe you would.
 
Because the point is unstated, that's why. Why would the author of any op refuse to state his position, or at least state his/her specific point of inquiry?

That is incorrect. There are seven respondents to this op and every single one of them has addressed the op differently. If you follow their replies, you'll end up having seven different conversations with six different people and none of them may have anything to do with what was originally intended. We, you and I, have, in fact, just wasted one exchange of posts when it would have been much easier for you and much, much, much more beneficial for everyone else to simply state your thesis. The op asks a question it never answers and asserts what appears to be a non sequitur.

Really? Then tell me what that is. ;)
Maybe because it has already been answered?
 
There are seven respondents to this op and every single one of them has addressed the op differently. If you follow their replies, you'll end up having seven different conversations with six different people and none of them may have anything to do with what was originally intended.
7 imperfect people. tsk, tsk.
 
chapter 2 and 3 have nothing to do with chapters 9 - 11..

Paul talks to the gentiles (ch 1_ and tells them what God has against them

then in chapter 2 he turns to the Jews and tells them what he has against them

Chapter 3 I would see as more universal relating to everyone (all have sinned)

Sorry but you don’t see it. The problem: thinking that the race-nation automatically deserves blessing in spite of actions.

Attention does not turn to the Jews til the 2nd half of 2; before that it is all men.
 
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