Justification

[EarlyActs]

I do not know what your premise behind history first then theology. My position is by Scripture Alone. Will you address Scripture? If so, please explain Hosea 6:7, and Romans 5:12-21. Thanks.

Is Acts Scripture? Oh. It's also history. Oh. So sometimes Scripture, I mean history, is loaded with history to know. And things said in Scripture take shape because of historical developments. Do not be afraid to look! My books will help. If you want I could send you the bibliographies that went into creating them. It will take a couple years to absorb.

People like Paul did not confine their thoughts every moment, every day, to what Adam did or did not know, before and after, as the single passage of Rom 5 explains. I'm glad for and agree with that passage. But it does not compare volume-wise with the amount of time/attention that goes into what I'm talking about.

Paul was shown by God how the Law was being mistakenly used by the zealotism he grew up in (see Phil 3). And how Judaism had even restructured their history against the Gospel. In Acts we see massive detail of how much this mattered right in his life over a span of decades.

History first also helps enormously on eschatology; so much of what was said was about their times.

 

[Ladodgers6]

I am not here to debate Rom 5; no issues with it. But in Rom 9B-10A, people don't seem to realize he has his finger on post-exile/intertestament realities which leave off right where Paul picked up as young student, cp the obsession remark of Acts 26. He's talking about what Judaism is like as he grew up in it. The same with Gal 3:15+. The zealots of the IT period replaced the Promise with the Law, making it impossible for them to see how the Gentiles would be one with the true Israel (not the race-nation), and solidifying the mistaken beliefs about the race-nation. God had to come and make children of Abraham out of stones, so to speak.

History first, then theology.

But aren't you overseeing something here? Christ is the new Israel.

 

[EarlyActs]

But aren't you overseeing something here? Christ is the new Israel.

The Israel referred to in 9B-10A is the historic race-nation in his times.

 

[EarlyActs]

The Israel referred to in 9B-10A is the historic race-nation in his times.

Seems like you were going to request a book, but I see no DM. I"ll send you a DM.

 

[Josheb]

We are justified by His work of faith .

We are justified by more than one thing, according to scripture. Look them up and list them.

He alone is the just one who through his labor of love paid the full price of salvation........

Digressions will not be entertained unless or until the op's single point of commentary has been addressed.

Both laws that seen (the letter death). and the unseen eternal faith the two must be used together or mixed,

The letter death the just and the unseen law of the Holy Spirit the law of faith the justifier life.

Two laws make one perfect law .Apart from each other it losses the effect of the perfect

Romans 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, (Thou shall not or you will die) .and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Philippians 3:9-10 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: . . . . . . . Gods faith not dying mankind no faith ,no power That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death

Philippian 2 :12 states it is God who works in us both hear his will the just .and empower us to do it through his mighty work of faith. . the justifier

Again both the just and the justifier. The perfect law

Now look at what you just posted of your own and what you just quoted from scripture. Count the exact number of times any of those words specifically contain the exact words "justified by." Then tell me why both our time is being wasted with content that says nothing about the means of justification (especially since no one - including me - has disputed Jesus is both just and justifier).


Study the NT's use of "justified by". Post the list Scripture provides. That way we won't run into the problem of proof-texting, we won't run into the problem of excluding scripture, and we'll reduce the problem of subjectivity.

 

[Ladodgers6]

The Israel referred to in 9B-10A is the historic race-nation in his times.

No sir, read Romans 3:29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also

 

[Ladodgers6]

The Israel referred to in 9B-10A is the historic race-nation in his times.

Have you read Meredith Kline's book, The Kingdom Prologue? If not it is a must have for your library. Also get Geerhardus Vos book on the epistle on Hebrews.

 

[Ladodgers6]

Is Acts Scripture? Oh. It's also history. Oh. So sometimes Scripture, I mean history, is loaded with history to know. And things said in Scripture take shape because of historical developments. Do not be afraid to look! My books will help. If you want I could send you the bibliographies that went into creating them. It will take a couple years to absorb.

People like Paul did not confine their thoughts every moment, every day, to what Adam did or did not know, before and after, as the single passage of Rom 5 explains. I'm glad for and agree with that passage. But it does not compare volume-wise with the amount of time/attention that goes into what I'm talking about.

Paul was shown by God how the Law was being mistakenly used by the zealotism he grew up in (see Phil 3). And how Judaism had even restructured their history against the Gospel. In Acts we see massive detail of how much this mattered right in his life over a span of decades.

History first also helps enormously on eschatology; so much of what was said was about their times.

You sound like N.T. Wright and Sanders. Saul before he became Paul, was the greatest Pharisee there was, he even prosecuted Christians preaching the Gospel that negated the Law and a means to redemption for sinners. So, history is not misunderstand by Paul on how the second temple Judaizsers used the Law. People tend to confuse and distort the fact that Paul knew exactly how the Judaizers were using the Law as a means to Salvation for sinners. This is why Paul over and over; ironically now preaching the Gospel that he once condemned and prosecuted those who preached it and believe it.

N.T. Wright and Sanders are in grave error because their paradigm was a salvation by works, not by a promise in the Redeemer. No flesh will be justified through the Law, Paul says. Throughout his whole ministry he points sinners to the free promise in Christ. That he is the only way to redemption apart from the Law. Christ is the New Covenant and by his propitiation and blood we are saved through Faith Alone. This is why Christ came to fulfill the broken Covenant of Works that Adam failed to fulfill. The Last Adam fulfills the Law with his perfect Law keeping for us, and becomes a curse for us.​

 

[Ladodgers6]

All of that is true but is not what Paul’s issue is in Rom 9B—10A and Gal 3:15+. Your issue is very important to you and is settled; mine is not treated as important but drastically affects what we see in the NT.

I’m not sure you followed the convo above, you just arrived to talk about Rom 5B and nothing else.

Can you provide me the exact passages from Romans 9 and 10, thanks.

 

[EarlyActs]

No sir, read Romans 3:29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also

The clarification of which Israel is meant is bc of 9:6. Obviously the failing Israel in 9-10 is the race-nation , not the us of 9:24.

 

[EarlyActs]

Can you provide me the exact passages from Romans 9 and 10, thanks.

It’s the lines about seeking their own righteosnesss and about their zeal for the law. If you don’t know the material well enough to find that, to know that turn in the road, I hope you read scripture 10x more than time spent here.

 

[Ladodgers6]

The clarification of which Israel is meant is bc of 9:6. Obviously the failing Israel in 9-10 is the race-nation , not the us of 9:24.

Can you provide more detail? What's your point?

 

[Ladodgers6]

It’s the lines about seeking their own righteosnesss and about their zeal for the law. If you don’t know the material well enough to find that, to know that turn in the road, I hope you read scripture 10x more than time spent here.

I believe I have answered this. Paul is speaking about Works-Salvation vs Grace-Salvation. In the Reformed Faith we call it Law & Gospel preaching. The Law demands, where the Gospel provides freely. But the major difference here, is that no flesh will be justified through the Law (Galatians 2:16). Why? Because we are under the curse of the Law that was transgressed in the Garden. The sanction of being cursed under the Covenant of Works, we are under God's wrath.

But praise be to God that he provided a Promised Seed (Genesis 3:15), the time in history that the Gospel is preached (protoevangelium). Which is again mention in Romans 9:29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

But what's very interesting is that Israel was trying to earn God's favor through work-righteousness of the Law. They believed as the Scribes and Pharisees did, and that the Law could be obtained through sinful flesh and fulfilled perfectly. Not trusting or having the knowledge to understand that the Law brings only death, condemnation and punishment.

The Gospel (Promised Seed) is the manifestation of the righteousness of God, and is imputed to those who trust in God who justify the ungodly through Faith Alone apart from works of the Law.​

 

[EarlyActs]

Can you provide more detail? What's your point?

That the mistake made by the Israel of 9B—10A make it the race-nation not believers. Are you looking back in the conversation so that you can answer questions like this by yourself? This habit would make your post 86 void.

And, re 88, of course Paul did not misunderstand the IT history; God showed him Israel’s mistake.

 

[EarlyActs]

That the mistake made by the Israel of 9B—10A make it the race-nation not believers. Are you looking back in the conversation so that you can answer questions like this by yourself? This habit would make your post 86 void.

And, re 88, of course Paul did not misunderstand the IT history; God showed him Israel’s mistake.

Apparently looking this up is a huge challenge, so I have pasted it here.​

Romans 9B-10A​

Israel’s Rejection Culpable​

30 What shall we say then?—that the Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness obtained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith, 31 but Israel even though pursuing[bc] a law of righteousness[bd] did not attain it.[be] 32 Why not? Because they pursued[bf] it not by faith but (as if it were possible) by works.[bg] They stumbled over the stumbling stone,[bh] 33 just as it is written,

“Look, I am laying in Zion a stone that will cause people to stumble
and a rock that will make them fall,[bi]
yet the one who believes in him will not be put to shame.”[bj]

10 Brothers and sisters,[a] my heart’s desire and prayer to God on behalf of my fellow Israelites[b] is for their salvation. 2 For I can testify that they are zealous for God,[c] but their zeal is not in line with the truth.[d] 3 For ignoring the righteousness that comes from God, and seeking instead to establish their own righteousness, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. 4 For Christ is the end of the law, with the result that there is righteousness for everyone who believes.
--TEV


This is not 'law and Gospel.' It is a description of what has just happened in the 1st century, due to the previous centuries ('zeal for the Law' being a motto built up by the Macabbeans). It is not about rejecting/crucifying Christ. It is about the after-rejection of not helping in the mission of the Gospel afterward, because the crucifixion was ordained by God's will as Acts 2-4 say.

Nothing can be done about that, but the burning issue of the 1st century generation was Israel's failure to help in the mission . Notice that the whole rest of ch 10 and really 10-11 is about compelling Jews to be missionaries. Early Luther material matched this very closely.

Amazingly provided by EarlyActs so that the reader can actually see 9B-10A in broad daylight, there being many obstacles!

 

[Ladodgers6]

That the mistake made by the Israel of 9B—10A make it the race-nation not believers. Are you looking back in the conversation so that you can answer questions like this by yourself? This habit would make your post 86 void.

And, re 88, of course Paul did not misunderstand the IT history; God showed him Israel’s mistake.

Dude, it's God's election in view here. And the Promised Seed that would fulfill the broken Covenant of Works through the Covenant of Grace (New Covenant). It's about the Last Adam here.

 

[EarlyActs]

Dude, it's God's election in view here. And the Promised Seed that would fulfill the broken Covenant of Works through the Covenant of Grace (New Covenant). It's about the Last Adam here.

Indeed but it was also a historical development, at the back end of which Paul stands, and is trying to implore them to change, with an awareness that time is just about up.

Acts 2-4 are clear that nothing could have stopped the crucifixion. But the after-rejection, in which Israel failed mostly to be missionaries of the Gospel, was an open issue about which the apostles sought Jews help. Early Luther taught the same.

Theologies that are doctrinaire—not involved in the actual issues of a time period—are disgusting.

 

[EarlyActs]

Indeed but it was also a historical development, at the back end of which Paul stands, and is trying to implore them to change, with an awareness that time is just about up.

Acts 2-4 are clear that nothing could have stopped the crucifixion. But the after-rejection, in which Israel failed mostly to be missionaries of the Gospel, was an open issue about which the apostles sought Jews help. Early Luther taught the same.

Theologies that are doctrinaire—not involved in the actual issues of a time period—are disgusting.

An additional problem here is the “400 silent years.” What happened in them is essential to know the NT. Try Lord Of the Rings sometime without Book 1

 

[Ladodgers6]

Indeed but it was also a historical development, at the back end of which Paul stands, and is trying to implore them to change, with an awareness that time is just about up.

Huh??? I am scratching my head here. I believe you are not seeing the big picture here. All is lost in Adam; the Torah; the Law; is a lost cause for sinners. But the Israelites, not all, but the majority, do not believe all is lost. They still believe that the Law can be fulfilled with sinful hands and will. God does not grade on a curve or lowers his standard of holiness to allow us in. The Law must be fulfilled with perfect love and obedience which sinners do not possess. Nor will our filthy rages of so-called righteousness even come in the same universe in what the Law demands!

In the Covenant of Grace the Last Adam will provide us righteousness that declares us righteous before God. This is why I advised you to read Romans 5, where Paul juxaposition Adam and Christ. By One Man's Act of disobedience brings condemnation and death, and by One Man's Obedience bring Justification and life.

16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. 17 For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.​

Those Israelites did not believe Paul and sought to establish their own righteousness through the Law. Instead of trusting and believing in God who justifies the ungodly apart from the Law. This was their stumbling block. They could not believe that this free gift of righteousness was absolutely free with no strings attached.

Acts 2-4 are clear that nothing could have stopped the crucifixion. But the after-rejection, in which Israel failed mostly to be missionaries of the Gospel, was an open issue about which the apostles sought Jews help. Early Luther taught the same.

Theologies that are doctrinaire—not involved in the actual issues of a time period—are disgusting.

Sorry to bring this to your attention but theology sir, is the study of God; his word; Scripture; and yes God's historical redemptive plan unfolding in time, space and history in the person of Christ through a Promise God made.

 

[EarlyActs]

In Galatians especially there is a historic transition going on in which the old system is being shed. I don’t know why that would hard to see, why it is hard to see the full version in Acts, or why you can’t see it behind Rom 9-10.

But you cant see any of it. You are spending too much time in the abstract.

If you understood you would at least complement the clarity it brings.