Justification

[Mr GLee]

My post was about Abraham

Sorry I was not trying to change the matter .

I think it aplies to all sons of men to include Jesus our brother in the lord .

Abram (father of one nation or family) who was given a new born again name. Abraham (the father of all the nations of the world)

The faithless Israel had no trust in a God not seen as it is written by the finger of God the living word. .

Not all Israel is born again Israel as the eternal bride. Some remained unchanged under the meaning of Jacob the deceiver. Natural unconverted mankind.. . . .or one that grasp the heel of another in a attempt at being first born . A place reserved for Jesus, the Son of man the first born of many sons of God,as the Father .

Genesis 25:26 And after that came his brother out, and his hand took hold on Esau's heel; and his name was called Jacob: and Isaac was threescore years old when she bare them.

Genesis 32:28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

It is how the two names are used throughout one death the other life. .Hiding the gospel understanding from the faithless mankind .

It reminds me of one of the "think not" doctrines .The faithless Jew or gentiles that look to the outward dying flesh of mankind . rather than seeking the Father through his living word . Eulogizing the dying flesh of mankind and not the spirit of faith the power of God . In effect those who looked to many fathers as a succession of men And not our unsen Holy father . Christ said if he chooses he could turn

Matthew 3:9
And "think not" to say within yourselves, We have (earthly) Abraham to our (heavenly ) father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

1 Peter 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

 

[EarlyActs]

I don’t know why it would matter after knowing Rom 9-10 and Gal 3.

That's as far back as Paul went because the post-exile experience determined so much

 

[Ladodgers6]

I suffocate at mile long paragraphs. Please make a list of three one-line points to summarize what you have to say. It must address the end of Rom 9-10’s intro and Gal 3:17.

Well, then, if this is your reply, instead of understanding. Then let's just bid farewell. Because Romans and Galatians do not help your paradigm. Here's why, In Galatians 3, why does Christ have to become a curse for us? Romans 2 Paul says even though the Gentiles did not receive the stone tablets signifying God's theocracy with Israel, the Gentiles also have God's Law written on their hearts, and it it by this Law that they will be judged, right? So how is that every sinner is under the curse of the Law? Didn't God curse Adam and Eve in the Garden for breaking the Law Covenant?

And please do not tell me how to write or debate, I do not tell you how to debate. Instead try to learn something.​

 

[Mr GLee]

Yes, justification is the subject, and specifically justification by faith not works. Yes, Jesus is the justifier of us, but it is a mistake to say he is the justifier of our faith if "our new born again faith" is thought to be different than any other correct faith in God. It runs the risk of imply there are different kinds of valid faith. I will also argue any suggestion the faith of Christ in us, and our own Spirit birthed, inspired, worked, and empowered faith in Christ is a false dichotomy. In a regenerate believer the two are co-occurring, collaborative, and inextricable. Neither fleshly faith nor intellectual assent are asserted in scripture as veracious. They are therefore not germane to this thread. The faith of Christ necessarily begets a faith in Christ. No one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12:3).


Do you think Philippians 3:9 should be used as a proof text defining the subject of justification?

Do you think the words "by" and "through" should be considered synonymous and therefore interchangeable?

By and through what other means does scripture state we are justified?

We are justified by His work of faith . He alone is the just one who through his labor of love paid the full price of salvation. Both laws that seen (the letter death). and the unseen eternal faith the two must be used together or mixed,

The letter death the just and the unseen law of the Holy Spirit the law of faith the justifier life.

Two laws make one perfect law .Apart from each other it losses the effect of the perfect

Romans 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, (Thou shall not or you will die) .and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Philippians 3:9-10 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: . . . . . . . Gods faith not dying mankind no faith ,no power That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death

Philippian 2 :12 states it is God who works in us both hear his will the just .and empower us to do it through his mighty work of faith. . the justifier

Again both the just and the justifier. The perfect law

 

[EarlyActs]

Well, then, if this is your reply, instead of understanding. Then let's just bid farewell. Because Romans and Galatians do not help your paradigm. Here's why, In Galatians 3, why does Christ have to become a curse for us? Romans 2 Paul says even though the Gentiles did not receive the stone tablets signifying God's theocracy with Israel, the Gentiles also have God's Law written on their hearts, and it it by this Law that they will be judged, right? So how is that every sinner is under the curse of the Law? Didn't God curse Adam and Eve in the Garden for breaking the Law Covenant?

And please do not tell me how to write or debate, I do not tell you how to debate. Instead try to learn something.​

I don’t have a paradigm. I just find the blocks of material where the NT has spoken for itself on substantial things like this and keep those statements intact.

It is obvious in both places that what matters to him is what post-exile Judaism misguidedly thought. He speaks to that and to those who still think that way in his time.

History first, then theology if needed.

M Sanford, THE COVENANT REVOLT, 2023 Amazon.

 

[Ladodgers6]

I don’t have a paradigm. I just find the blocks of material where the NT has spoken for itself on substantial things like this and keep those statements intact.

It is obvious in both places that what matters to him is what post-exile Judaism misguidedly thought. He speaks to that and to those who still think that way in his time.

History first, then theology if needed.

M Sanford, THE COVENANT REVOLT, 2023 Amazon.

You didn't address my questions. Why are all sinners under the curse of the Law? Why does death reign on all mankind?

 

[EarlyActs]

You didn't address my questions. Why are all sinners under the curse of the Law? Why does death reign on all mankind?

Bc all have sinned as defined by it and yet other things, conceptions, developed over the years that he dealt with in Rom 9,10, Gal 3:15+. There’s no reason to avoid talking about them, and they not a theology system is what needed to be countered to stop the Judaizers.

 

[Arial]

M Sanford, THE COVENANT REVOLT, 2023 Amazon.

Rule 12.
No spamming or solicitation. Our message boards are for discussions, not the selling of goods or services.

 

[EarlyActs]

Rule 12.
No spamming or solicitation. Our message boards are for discussions, not the selling of goods or services.

Ok then I have to say the knowledge gap is so great, I can’t cover it here, which is sometimes why there are books.

 

[EarlyActs]

Well, then, if this is your reply, instead of understanding. Then let's just bid farewell. Because Romans and Galatians do not help your paradigm. Here's why, In Galatians 3, why does Christ have to become a curse for us? Romans 2 Paul says even though the Gentiles did not receive the stone tablets signifying God's theocracy with Israel, the Gentiles also have God's Law written on their hearts, and it it by this Law that they will be judged, right? So how is that every sinner is under the curse of the Law? Didn't God curse Adam and Eve in the Garden for breaking the Law Covenant?

And please do not tell me how to write or debate, I do not tell you how to debate. Instead try to learn something.​

I can’t cover the topic in bit pieces. I have books out.

 

[EarlyActs]

You didn't address my questions. Why are all sinners under the curse of the Law? Why does death reign on all mankind?

What I wrote is my answers to your questions, but you mean I didn’t think the way you think.

 

[Ladodgers6]

Bc all have sinned as defined by it and yet other things, conceptions, developed over the years that he dealt with in Rom 9,10, Gal 3:15+. There’s no reason to avoid talking about them, and they not a theology system is what needed to be countered to stop the Judaizers.

This doesn't address my question. Why does death reign over all mankind, even the time between Adam and Moses when there was no Law?

Hosea 6:7But like Adam they transgressed the covenant; there they dealt faithlessly with me.

And when Adam breached the Covenant that came with stipulations; punishment and condemnation fell upon Adam & Eve and his whole progeny. Adam's sin, guilty verdict, condemnation and death is imputed to all mankind. This is through a Covenant where Adam is the human representative of us all. This is why Paul make a juxaposition between the two Adams. Read Romans 5, here I quote the passages.
​

Death in Adam, Life in Christ​

12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— 13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. 16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. 17 For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.

18 Therefore, as one trespassf led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. 19 For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous. 20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

If there is no law, then sin is not counted against, and if sin not counted against then there is no punishment, condemnation or death. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses where is was no Law.

How is this possible? Can you answer this?

It was because the Covenant curse fell upon Adam and all his progeny. This is why death reign between Adam and Moses where there was no Law.​

 

[Ladodgers6]

I can’t cover the topic in bit pieces. I have books out.

Try or send me copies of your book for review.

 

[Ladodgers6]

What I wrote is my answers to your questions, but you mean I didn’t think the way you think.

No sir, you dodged the questions asked. Simple question why did death reign between the time of Adam and Moses if there was no Law. And if there is no law, there is no sin; and if no sin, then no punishment, condemnation, or death. For the wages of sin is death. But Law has to be established, right? So why did death reign?

 

[EarlyActs]

No sir, you dodged the questions asked. Simple question why did death reign between the time of Adam and Moses if there was no Law. And if there is no law, there is no sin; and if no sin, then no punishment, condemnation, or death. For the wages of sin is death. But Law has to be established, right? So why did death reign?

All of that is true but is not what Paul’s issue is in Rom 9B—10A and Gal 3:15+. Your issue is very important to you and is settled; mine is not treated as important but drastically affects what we see in the NT.

I’m not sure you followed the convo above, you just arrived to talk about Rom 5B and nothing else.

 

[EarlyActs]

Try or send me copies of your book for review.

Sure. For an e.copy my address is [email protected] so I know where to send.

Post Some review lines at a public site like X or Amazon itself.

They are both history first then theology.

 

[EarlyActs]

Try or send me copies of your book for review.

DM me with a mail address if you want print copies.

 

[Ladodgers6]

All of that is true but is not what Paul’s issue is in Rom 9B—10A and Gal 3:15+. Your issue is very important to you and is settled; mine is not treated as important but drastically affects what we see in the NT.

I’m not sure you followed the convo above, you just arrived to talk about Rom 5B and nothing else.

How is it true? How does it relate to Romans 9?

 

[Ladodgers6]

Sure. For an e.copy my address is [email protected] so I know where to send.

Post Some review lines at a public site like X or Amazon itself.

They are both history first then theology.

I do not know what your premise behind history first then theology. My position is by Scripture Alone. Will you address Scripture? If so, please explain Hosea 6:7, and Romans 5:12-21. Thanks.

 

[EarlyActs]

How is it true? How does it relate to Romans 9?

I am not here to debate Rom 5; no issues with it. But in Rom 9B-10A, people don't seem to realize he has his finger on post-exile/intertestament realities which leave off right where Paul picked up as young student, cp the obsession remark of Acts 26. He's talking about what Judaism is like as he grew up in it. The same with Gal 3:15+. The zealots of the IT period replaced the Promise with the Law, making it impossible for them to see how the Gentiles would be one with the true Israel (not the race-nation), and solidifying the mistaken beliefs about the race-nation. God had to come and make children of Abraham out of stones, so to speak.

History first, then theology.