Justification by the faith OF Jesus Christ

[brightfame52]

brightframe52, I read the post, I know what you believe. I think you are wrong.

Okay, thats fine, Im right however.

 

[JIM]

Okay, thats fine, Im right however.

I certainly hope that at least you think you are right.

 

[fastfredy0]

Our faith must be placed in Jesus for we do not have in actuality His faith, any more than we are actually perfectly righteous at the moment. The faith that He possessed is imputed right along with His righteousness as that is a part of righteousness.

Getting deeper into the weeds ... but I am good with that.
Again, the Son of God does not have faith, but the Son of man would ... which is also deeper than I wanted to go. *giggle* I just didn't like the thread title

 

[Arial]

Getting deeper into the weeds ... but I am good with that.
Again, the Son of God does not have faith, but the Son of man would ... which is also deeper than I wanted to go. *giggle* I just didn't like the thread title

Me either.

 

[Red Baker]

Nevertheless, Jesus as Son of man, one of us, taking our place, had complete and perfect faith/trust in God to obey Him in everything all the way to the cross. And that is the faith we are to have, which of course even as the redeemed we do not always have. This faith that Jesus demonstrated by His life is a part of His righteousness. So there is a sense in which this faith is included in the righteousness of Christ that is imputed to us.

Whether that is what Paul was referring to, I cannot say with certainty.

Amen Arial~Just got back and I want to say more, but it must come in the morning, my mind is old and weak and it's getting late in the afternoon for me. I do better @ 4:00 am when I'm fresh and all is quiet with no interruptions.

 

[Red Baker]

Thread Title: Justification by the faith OF Jesus Christ​

Aside: Maybe it's a grammatical issue but if not I submit ....
No one is justified by Jesus Christ's (God's) faith. God does not have faith.

Premise 1: Faith is: The assent of the mind to the truth of a proposition or statement for which there is not complete evidence; belief in general.
Premise 2: God knows all things
Conclusion: Since FAITH requires a lack of knowledge and God knows all things it is not possible for God to have FAITH. Therefore it is not possible for someone to be saved "by the faith OF Jesus Christ"

Not so fast~fastfredyo!

It was not God that had faith, But Jesus who was made in the likeness of sinful flesh, for sin, and condemned sin in the flesh as the second Adam.

It is very true that Jesus was a complex person~fully God, and fully man, and as a man, became sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in and through him. The MAN Christ Jesus had perfect faith and obedience which truly go hand in hand. This is the mystery of Christ~we can dive as deep as we desire to dive into this mystery.

More later~RB

 

[Arial]

Amen Arial~Just got back and I want to say more, but it must come in the morning, my mind is old and weak and it's getting late in the afternoon for me. I do better @ 4:00 am when I'm fresh and all is quiet with no interruptions.

I hear you on that though I am more of a 6:00 a.m er and half a pot of coffee.

 

[fastfredy0]

Not so fast~fastfredyo!

It was not God that had faith, But Jesus who was made in the likeness of sinful flesh, for sin, and condemned sin in the flesh as the second Adam.

It is very true that Jesus was a complex person~fully God, and fully man, and as a man, became sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in and through him. The MAN Christ Jesus had perfect faith and obedience which truly go hand in hand. This is the mystery of Christ~we can dive as deep as we desire to dive into this mystery.

I agree.
This has nothing to do with my post that said the thread title has a false premise. There is not such thing as justification via Christ's faith. We are saved by the gracious gift of faith that God gives us. Our faith saves us. The cause of our faith is God.

I do better @ 4:00 am when I'm fresh and all is quiet with no interruptions.

Best to talk to me now while I have an edge. *giggle*

 

[David1701]

Getting deeper into the weeds ... but I am good with that.
Again, the Son of God does not have faith, but the Son of man would ... which is also deeper than I wanted to go. *giggle* I just didn't like the thread title

Really? Are you absolutely sure that the Son of God does not have an unwavering trust in the Father and the Holy Spirit? I cannot imagine the Trinity loving each other, with having an unshakeable trust (faith) in each other! In fact, the thought seems blasphemous...

Do you want to rethink your position?

 

[fastfredy0]

Really? Are you absolutely sure that the Son of God does not have an unwavering trust in the Father and the Holy Spirit? I cannot imagine the Trinity loving each other, with having an unshakeable trust (faith) in each other! In fact, the thought seems blasphemous...

Conversations require agreed to definition of words. I will restate the definition of FAITH I gave earlier.
FAITH is: The assent of the mind to the truth of a proposition or statement for which there is not complete evidence; belief in general.

When one uses the term "Son of God" I believe one is talking about the 2nd member of the Trinity as apposed to the "son of man" which is the human side of the hypostatic union. @Arial brought up that aspect earlier.
So....

Premise 1: FAITH is the assent of the mind to the truth of a proposition or statement for which there is not complete evidence; belief in general.
Premise 2: There is one God. The three persons of God do not have distinct knowledge. God is all knowing.
Conclusion: Since FAITH requires a lack of knowledge (premise 1) and God knows all things, it is not possible for God to have FAITH. Therefore it is not possible for someone to be saved "by the faith OF the Son of God" because God (or any particular member of the Trinity) does not have FAITH as defined above.

Are you absolutely sure that the Son of God does not have an unwavering trust in the Father and the Holy Spirit?

This is a mischaracterization of my statement. The three members of the Trinity are one God, one in thought, one in knowledge, one in essence. The definition of God negates the possibility of a lack of FAITH. But my contention, as explained again above, is that no member of the Trinity has the attribute of FAITH because FAITH by definition requires a lack of knowledge and the Son of God is all-knowing.

I cannot imagine the Trinity loving each other, with having an unshakeable trust (faith) in each other! In fact, the thought seems blasphemous...

Maybe the crux of our disagreement is your conflating trust with faith. The words are similar. When I made my statement about FAITH I gave a dictionary definition and unless you wish to assert a different definition I think you are obligated to use the only definition on the table in the discussion.

Do you want to rethink your position?

I rethought my position. My position has not changed. I think our difference in opinion may be semantics.

 

[David1701]

Conversations require agreed to definition of words. I will restate the definition of FAITH I gave earlier.
FAITH is: The assent of the mind to the truth of a proposition or statement for which there is not complete evidence; belief in general.

Okay, I didn't see your definition of faith; however, that definition is absolutely not what biblical faith is! Faith in Jesus Christ is a complete trust in him and it works by love. The biblical faith by which God saves is about relationship, not merely mental assent; and it's not based on pondering evidence; it's a miraculous gift of God.

 

[Red Baker]

Oh brother..... SMH



For once in my life I am actually struck speechless just reading this.

Rella, good morning~What Arail said is absolutely true~besides, never seen you without having something to say~maybe speechless because no sound/scriptural rebuttal?

I'm reading each post to get caught up before posting.

 

[Red Baker]

Huh? Scratching my head. So, are you saying that sinners can understand apart from God's grace, just not believe?

This is absolutely true~One example of many that could be given:

John 20:8,9~"Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed. For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead."

A child of God could believe certain truths and they also may not believe other truths, because they are hidden from them for whatever reason, it could be more than one reason and often it is. This has been true in every child of God's life, bar none.

This is one reason among others, that we should be show patience, kindness, and longsuffering to all who believe yet believe differently than us.

Ladodgers6~enjoying much of what you are saying. Jim is good man up in his 80's so be nice, and respectful to him, but firm, he needs to be saved from his hard core arminianism, which is another gospel. Being a "high" Calvinist, we have butted heads many times in the past fifteen years or so.

 

[Red Baker]

All of that is just so much Calvinistic Determinist Bovine Scat. "Free-Willers" do not think that, do not posit that, and do not preach that. Nor is it a natural conclusion of their theology. It is not about "accepting" a gift. And it doesn't even enter into a consideration of whether the work of Jesus is effectual. As I said, your view of such things is pure Bovine Scat.

Jim, when folks have no scriptural argument, then they resort to doing what you are doing in this post. You can do better than that~use scriptures to defend your position, not ranting on a system you hate, and truly have no support from heaven to expose as false. The man with truth, will stay on course avoid allowing others whom they disagree with from getting under their skin, Truth clams a person down and gives them boldness to use the scriptures to defend what they believe is the truth.

 

[Red Baker]

This is a mischaracterization of my statement. The three members of the Trinity are one God, one in thought, one in knowledge, one in essence. The definition of God negates the possibility of a lack of FAITH. But my contention, as explained again above, is that no member of the Trinity has the attribute of FAITH because FAITH by definition requires a lack of knowledge and the Son of God is all-knowing.

Sir, your reasoning is not scriptural, to put it blunt and to the point. No pun intended, God forbid.

Jesus Christ was a complex person. Yes, he was God, not the second person of the Trinity for there is no such thing as one, two and three as the RCC wants us to believe concerning the Godhead~ there is one God, manifested to us as three, ONLY according to their work in the redemption of God's elect, and the human nature of Jesus Christ. 1st Timothy 3:16~"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."

Though a mystery we must separate Jesus' human nature form his Godhead as being the Mighty God, the everlasting father of all things.

His human nature was ignorant and he needed to grown from an infant into a man, so according to the scriptures he increased in wisdom, knowledge and understand, along with his faith in God! Luke 2:52~"And Jesus INCREASED in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man." So, I ask you did Jesus increased in favor with God? How did he do so, since he was God? Only according to his human nature was this so. So, Jesus had faith and Jesus was obedience in his flesh as our surety~actually we were IN HIM and all he did was imputed to our account freely by God's grace, as though we did his faith and his obedience.

At twelve years old I was not obedience, yet was so IN CHRIST, being member of this elect body, he being the head thereof.

More later....RB

 

[JIM]

Sir, your reasoning is not scriptural, to put it blunt and to the point. No pun intended, God forbid.

Jesus Christ was a complex person. Yes, he was God, not the second person of the Trinity for there is no such thing as one, two and three as the RCC wants us to believe concerning the Godhead~ there is one God, manifested to us as three, ONLY according to their work in the redemption of God's elect, and the human nature of Jesus Christ. 1st Timothy 3:16~"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."

Though a mystery we must separate Jesus' human nature form his Godhead as being the Mighty God, the everlasting father of all things.

His human nature was ignorant and he needed to grown from an infant into a man, so according to the scriptures he increased in wisdom, knowledge and understand, along with his faith in God! Luke 2:52~"And Jesus INCREASED in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man." So, I ask you did Jesus increased in favor with God? How did he do so, since he was God? Only according to his human nature was this so. So, Jesus had faith and Jesus was obedience in his flesh as our surety~actually we were IN HIM and all he did was imputed to our account freely by God's grace, as though we did his faith and his obedience.

At twelve years old I was not obedience, yet was so IN CHRIST, being member of this elect body, he being the head thereof.

More later....RB

Why did you change the words, "in favor with God and men" (KJV), to "along with his faith in God"? Doing so certainly does nothing to support your (false) idea that Jesus had or needed faith in God.

 

[Rella]

Rella, good morning~What Arail said is absolutely true~besides, never seen you without having something to say~maybe speechless because no sound/scriptural rebuttal?

I'm reading each post to get caught up before posting.

Now Red

LO LOL LOL LOL LOL

You know me better than that.

Happy reading

 

[Rella]

Sir, your reasoning is not scriptural, to put it blunt and to the point. No pun intended, God forbid.

Jesus Christ was a complex person. Yes, he was God, not the second person of the Trinity for there is no such thing as one, two and three as the RCC wants us to believe

And us Presbyterians.

concerning the Godhead~ there is one God, manifested to us as three, ONLY according to their work in the redemption of God's elect, and the human nature of Jesus Christ. 1st Timothy 3:16~"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."

All three Persons of the Trinity comprise the one, perfectly unified God. They share the same nature and essence, and they are all the same God, but each individual Person of the Trinity is distinct and unique. The fact that God exists in three Persons is important for several reasons.

King Jimmy says it this way in 1 John 5
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

 

[fastfredy0]

Okay, I didn't see your definition of faith; however, that definition is absolutely not what biblical faith is! Faith in Jesus Christ is a complete trust in him and it works by love. The biblical faith by which God saves is about relationship, not merely mental assent; and it's not based on pondering evidence; it's a miraculous gift of God.

Yeah, IMO you went off on a tangent and equated FAITH = TRUST. Although I can see an element of TRUST in FAITH and I belief Saving Faith must include TRUST; nevertheless I do not feel FAITH = TRUST.

Hebrews 11:1 describes FAITH as: "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen".
If this bible description of Faith is true you have IMO:

Premise 1: "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen".
Premise 2: Definition of HOPE: To wish for a particular event that one considers possible.
Premise 3: God knows all things ... (He lacks no evidence; this is not uncertainty)
Conclusion: God does not have Faith

 

[fastfredy0]

But my contention, as explained again above, is that no member of the Trinity has the attribute of FAITH because FAITH by definition requires a lack of knowledge and the Son of God is all-knowing.

His human nature was ignorant and he needed to grown from an infant into a man, so according to the scriptures he increased in wisdom, knowledge and understand, along with his faith in God!

Your response was off topic. I was speaking of apples and you spoke of bananas. To illustrate:

1) I said that the SON OF GOD (or any member of the Trinity) does not have faith.
2) You then spoke of the son of man; that the son of man has faith.

I agree that the son of man, that aspect of the hypostatic union, had faith. But that is not relevant to my statement that the Son of God does not have faith.