Justification by the faith OF Jesus Christ

[Arial]

All mankind is a descendant of Adam according to the flesh. Jesus was clearly a descendant of Adam through Mary. How was Jesus not therefore a descendant of Adam according to the flesh?

We inherit the sin nature through Adam. Not Eve. Jesus got His divine nature from God, His fleshly human nature from Mary. Since He had no earthly, human father He did not have our sin nature. He could sin as Son of man having all the same makeup and temptations we do. But He was not born with sinful desires as we are. If He had been born with a sinful nature, that alone would disqualify Him as a substitute.

 

[JIM]

We inherit the sin nature through Adam. Not Eve.

I don't think I have read that anywhere. Where does it come from?

 

[GeneZ]

Let's make it simple.

Do you believe we are justified by faith alone?

Yes or no?

If we are justified by faith? And... we are.

What does justification do? Why is it needed in the first place?

When works are present without giving it a second thought? It reveals that we are filled with the Spirit, and our Faith is alive.
Alive as long as we remain Spirit filled.

If we sin and become cut off from the filling of the Spirit?
All we need to do is to recognize how we are sinning, and then acknowledge that sin to God!

​

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have ​

fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, ​

his Son, purifies us from all sin.​

​

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves ​

and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins,​

he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins ​

and purify us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:7-9​

In doing so? We name our sins to God?
We return to being filled with the Spirit, causing our Faith to be once again alive.

grace and peace .................

 

[Arial]

I don't think I have read that anywhere. Where does it come from?

As through the one MAN Adam, sin came into all the world----

 

[JIM]

As through the one MAN Adam, sin came into all the world----

Well, yes. But that certainly doesn't say anything about the "sin nature", or that the sin of Adam was imputed upon all mankind. I suppose, given your view of things, that is what you would like to think it means. With all grammatical constructions of the form "As with--then so" , or "Just as--so then", the whole point of the sentence is really the second part, that is, the "then so" part. In the case of verse 12 there, the point Paul is making is that death spread to all men, not because Adam sinned, but rather "and so death spread to all men because all sinned-- ". And I would add that I strongly believe that the death that Paul is talking about there is spiritual death, not physical death (see Genesis 2:17).

 

[Arial]

Well, yes. But that certainly doesn't say anything about the "sin nature", or that the sin of Adam was imputed upon all mankind. I suppose, given your view of things, that is what you would like to think it means. With all grammatical constructions of the form "As with--then so" , or "Just as--so then", the whole point of the sentence is really the second part, that is, the "then so" part. In the case of verse 12 there, the point Paul is making is that death spread to all men, not because Adam sinned, but rather "and so death spread to all men because all sinned-- ". And I would add that I strongly believe that the death that Paul is talking about there is spiritual death, not physical death (see Genesis 2:17).

Romans 5:16-19

For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. 17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.

18 Therefore, as one trespass[f] led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness[g] leads to justification and life for all men. 19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.
Nature: the physical constitution or drives of an organism
the genetically controlled qualities of an organism

And I would add that I strongly believe that the death that Paul is talking about there is spiritual death, not physical death (see Genesis 2:17).

It is obvious that Paul is talking about physical death.

That phrase spiritual death is frequently used to describe the fall of man and our condition, and there is a truth in it, but it is overused and carelessly, lazily used imo. Can you define it? Can you tell me what it means?

 

[Rella]

As through the one MAN Adam, sin came into all the world----

Well, yes. But that certainly doesn't say anything about the "sin nature", or that the sin of Adam was imputed upon all mankind. I suppose, given your view of things, that is what you would like to think it means. With all grammatical constructions of the form "As with--then so" , or "Just as--so then", the whole point of the sentence is really the second part, that is, the "then so" part. In the case of verse 12 there, the point Paul is making is that death spread to all men, not because Adam sinned, but rather "and so death spread to all men because all sinned-- ". And I would add that I strongly believe that the death that Paul is talking about there is spiritual death, not physical death (see Genesis 2:17).

We inherit the sin nature through Adam. Not Eve. Jesus got His divine nature from God, His fleshly human nature from Mary. Since He had no earthly, human father He did not have our sin nature. He could sin as Son of man having all the same makeup and temptations we do. But He was not born with sinful desires as we are. If He had been born with a sinful nature, that alone would disqualify Him as a substitute.

Good morning Ariel and Jim,

I have this article that may help you @JIM start to understand why some will say the sin of Adam was imputed upon all of mankind.

I am going to quote the entire article from the link below to make it easier to read.

What Is the Biblical Evidence for the Imputation of Adam’s Sin?

The doctrine of the imputation of Adam's sin means that when Adam first sinned, that sin (and its blame) was rightly regarded by God to be our sin as well. John Piper writes The problem with the human race is…

www.desiringgod.org

What Is the Biblical Evidence for the Imputation of Adam’s Sin?​

Article by
Matt Perman

Guest Contributor
The doctrine of the imputation of Adam's sin means that when Adam first sinned, that sin (and its blame) was rightly regarded by God to be our sin as well. John Piper writes:

The problem with the human race is not most deeply that everybody does various kinds of sins—those sins are real, they are huge and they are enough to condemn us. Paul is very concerned about them. But the deepest problem is that behind all our depravity and all our guilt and all our sinning, there is a deep mysterious connection with Adam whose sin became our sin and whose judgment became our judgment. (John Piper, "Adam, Christ, and Justification: Part 1")
God ordains that that there be a union of some kind that makes Adam's sin to be our sin so that our condemnation is just. ("Adam, Christ, and Justification: Part 5")
The biblical basis for this doctrine of imputed sin is discussed thoroughly in John Piper's five sermons on Romans 5:12-21. Here we will simply seek to summarize some of the primary evidence from this text.
Sin Entered the World Through One Man
First, Paul states in 5:12 that all sinned in Adam: "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned." Paul seems to be equating the "because all sinned" with "through one man sin entered into the world."
Sin is Not Imputed Where There is no Law
Second, in verses 13-14 Paul adds a clarification which confirms that he does indeed have the imputation of Adam's sin in view in the phrase "because all sinned" rather than our individual sins. He states: "For until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come." In other words, Paul concedes that personal sin was prevalent in the world before Moses ("until the Law sin was in the world..."). But he adds that these personal sins were not the ultimate reason people died in that time period: "But sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses." As Piper summarizes:
People died even though their own individual sins against the Mosaic law were not the reason for dying; they weren't counted. Instead, the reason all died is because all sinned in Adam. Adam's sin was imputed to them. (John Piper, "Adam, Christ, and Justification: Part 2")
Death Reigned Even Over Those Who Did Not Sin Like Adam
Third, Paul's statement at the end of verse 14 further clarifies that he does not have personal sins in view as the reason for human death: "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam." Piper notes:
In other words, yes Paul concedes that there are other kinds of laws before the Mosaic Law, and yes people broke those laws, and yes, one could argue that these sins are the root cause of death and condemnation in the world. But, Paul says, there is a problem with that view, because death reigned "even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam." There are those who died without seeing a law and choosing to sin against it.
Who are they? I think the group of people begging for an explanation is infants. Infants died. They could not understand personal revelation. They could not read the law on their hearts and choose to obey or disobey it. Yet they died. Why? Paul answers: the sin of Adam and the imputation of that sin to the human race. In other words, death reigned over all humans, even over those who did not sin against a known and understood law. Therefore, the conclusion is, to use the words of verse 18: "through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men." (Ibid)
So the purpose of verses 13 and 14 are to clarify verse 12 in this way:
At the end of verse 12 the words, "death spread to all men, because all sinned" mean that "death spread to all because all sinned in Adam." Death is not first and most deeply because of our own individual sinning, but because of what happened in Adam. (Ibid)
Paul's Emphasis Upon the One Transgression
Fourth, at least five times in the following verses Paul says that death comes upon all humans because of the one sin of Adam:
Verse 15: by the transgression of the one the many died
Verse 16: the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation
Verse 17: by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one
Verse 18: through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men
We are all condemned not ultimately because of our individual sins, but because of one sin (verse 18). We die not ultimately because of personal sins, but because of Adam's one transgression (verse 17). It is not ultimately from our personal sins that we die, but rather "by the transgression of the one the many died." Paul states over and over again that it is because of one sin that death and condemnation belong to us all. In other words, we are connected to Adam such that his one sin is regarded as our sin and we are worthy of condemnation for it.
The Direct Statement of Verse 19
Fifth, verse 19 provides us with a direct statement of imputation:
For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.
Paul here says that we are made sinners by the sin of Adam. Due to his disobedience, we are regarded as sinners. We cannot take "made sinners" here to be referring to original sin in which we become inherently sinful because it is paralleled with "made righteous." The phrase "made righteous" in this context is referring to the great truth of justification. Justification does not concern a change in our characters, the infusion of something inherent in us. Rather, it involves a change in our standing before God. In justification, God declares us righteous because He imputes to us the righteousness of Christ--not because He makes us internally righteous (cf. 2 Corinthians 5:21). Thus, when Paul says "made righteous" here, he means "imputed with righteousness" not "infused with righteousness." Since "made sinners" is paralleled with "made righteous," it must also be referring to imputation. Thus, Paul is saying that we are all made sinners in the sense that we are imputed with Adam's sin.
Further Resources
John Piper, "Adam, Christ, and Justification"
John Murray, The Imputation of Adam's Sin
John Murray, The Epistle to the Romans, 5:12-21.
Douglas Moo, The Epistle to the Romans, 5:12-21.

I, admittedly do not fully understand this.

It is said that God has the foreknowledge to know what we will do before we do it. Fine.

IMO the jury is still out about why Adam followed after EVE.

1. Is not G rated so I won't post it here.

2. It was in the basic designs of God's when he set His creation into motion.

3. God pre-determined... Calvin style... for Adam to start the ball rolling toward 4,000 years, give or take, later and His provision for us of his sacrificial lamb... named Jesus.

4. Or Adam's own free-will allowed him to break his covenant with God. (Which personally I lean toward only because of the wrath stirred un in God over Adam's disobedience....

 

[Red Baker]

Red, much of what you posted (from Robert Haldane?) I agree with; some I do not. No surprise there. The problem is that I don't see how that answers my question or my concern about Jesus not having the "sin nature" that is an integral feature for the entire human race. If he didn't sin because He didn't have a sin nature,

Greetings Jim~I dealing with one of those migraine headaches that I get often~so, I have not posted on my Reddit site or here, this morning.

then why did Adam sin because I think according to the Calvinist doctrine, Adam didn't have a sin nature initially either.

Adam was a son of God by creation~though created without a sin nature, he sinned as soon as God left him to his own power to keep himself, without God securing him from falling.

Jesus Christ was God only begotten Son, this made him greater than the first Adam, since he was from heaven and not of this earth.

1st Corinthians 15:47~"The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven."

There should be your answer, old friend.

 

[Rella]

Greetings Jim~I dealing with one of those migraine headaches that I get often~so, I have not posted on my Reddit site or here, this morning.


Adam was a son of God by creation~though created without a sin nature, he sinned as soon as God left him to his own power to keep himself, without God securing him from falling.

Ahhhhhh. Left him to his own power.... FREE WILL

As defined:

free will

noun

1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice.
2. The power of making choices that are neither determined by natural causality nor predestined by fate or divine will.
3. A person's natural inclination; unforced choice.

Jesus Christ was God only begotten Son, this made him greater than the first Adam, since he was from heaven and not of this earth.


There should be your answer, old friend.

 

[JIM]

Romans 5:16-19

For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. 17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.

18 Therefore, as one trespass[f] led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness[g] leads to justification and life for all men. 19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.
Nature: the physical constitution or drives of an organism
the genetically controlled qualities of an organism

I am always amazed that so much emphasis is directed at the first part of those verses, and so little emphasis is given to understanding what has been said in the second part of those verses and what it all means.

I will just say here that the real message there is the comparison between the effect of Adam's disobedience and the effect of Jesus' obedience. The really strange thing is that so many see the effect of Adam's disobedience to universal while the effect of Jesus' obedience to be severely limited; in other words, Adam's work is much, much more efficacious than that of Jesus. For me that is simply unacceptable and wrong. In verse 18, for example the meaning of all men in the second part is not different from the meaning of all men in the first part.

I can come back and elaborate on that if anyone is interested.

It is obvious that Paul is talking about physical death.

Many would agree with you, but that simply cannot be true. The physical death of mankind, or anything else for that matter, did not result from Adam's sin. In fact, the physical death of Adam didn't result from his sin. Adam died because God ejected him from the Garden taking away his access to the fruit of the tree of life which was there to stave off his physical death (Genesis 3:22)..

There are three types or forms of deaths for the human being. The first is the obvious physical death that is the natural feature of every living thing. A second form is the eternal condemnation that occurs for the lost at the end of time following Jesus' return. The third form is the spiritual death that is the condition of the spirit of a physically alive man separated from God. This third form is the result of our sin in our life, as was Adam's (spiritual) death on the "day that he disobeyed God's command to not eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

 

[JIM]

Good morning Ariel and Jim,

I have this article that may help you @JIM start to understand why some will say the sin of Adam was imputed upon all of mankind.

I know why some will say that, but it is wrong. If there is one thing to know about God, it is that He would not and does not impute the sin of one person to another person ever. Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die (Ezek 18:4).

 

[JIM]

Jesus Christ was God only begotten Son, this made him greater than the first Adam, since he was from heaven and not of this earth.

Then why do you interpret Romans 5 in a way that makes the effects due to Adam so much greater than the effects due to Jesus?

 

[Rella]

I know why some will say that, but it is wrong. If there is one thing to know about God, it is that He would not and does not impute the sin of one person to another person ever. Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die (Ezek 18:4).

I would not think so either.

But if that was the plan from beginning to end how can we dispute it.

That is exactly why I am so against Calvin.

According to John Calvin, predestination is God’s unchangeable decree from before the creation of the world that he would freely save some people (the elect), foreordaining them to eternal life, while the others (the reprobate) would be “barred from access to” salvation and sentenced to “eternal death (180, 184)
And I say to myself that I cannot believe my loving heavenly Father would take a soul and put in into a human embryo which He forms or places in the womb only to knowingly have made a "reprobate" with a death sentence.

But you can check my poll. Large majority on here believe that.

I posted that article for you and Ariel because it was one that I explained that side of things with more clarity then most.

In truth Ezekiel was correct...

Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die (Ezek 18:4).

But remember this one also... Exodus 34:7

If he does not impute the sins of one person to another .... He did say

7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

Deut 5:9

Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,

So our heavenly Father can and will "impute" the sin of one to another... even if you chose to not acknowledge it as such.

 

[Red Baker]

Then why do you interpret Romans 5 in a way that makes the effects due to Adam so much greater than the effects due to Jesus?

You sound like a liberal Democrat, and if I did not know better, I would thought you were~ Democrats are famous for putting spins of others words, beliefs, etc.

You know that I teach that Christ's obedience and righteousness abounded much greater than where Adam's in took us. Do you need help in me again reminding you of this wonderful, precious, gloriously truth? Love to do so.

Romans 5:15-20~"But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded. GRACE DID MUCH MORE ABOUND:"

There is a likeness between the sin of Adam and the gift of righteousness by Christ. But, as in most instances with regard to types, the anti type surpasses the type; and while in some respects the type furnishes a likeness, in others it may be very dissimilar. The sin of Adam involved all his posterity in guilt and ruin, as they were all created in him as their head, and consequently in him are guilty by his disobedience.

This was a shadow of the gift of righteousness by grace. All Christ’s seed were created in Him, Ephesians 2:10, and are righteous by His obedience. But while the one was a type of the other in this respect, there is a great dissimilarity both as to the degree of the evil and of the blessing. The evil brought death, but the blessing not only recovered from ruin, but abounded to unspeakable happiness.

If through the offense of one many be dead, or died ~ Here it is taken for granted that ‘the many’ who die, die through Adam’s offense. Infants, then, die through Adam’s offense, for they are a part of ‘the many.’ But we have before seen with you many times over, that death ( BOTH natural and spiritual ) comes only by sin ~ that is, none die who are not sinners, and there is no sin where there is no law, ~ consequently infants are sinners, and must be included in the law under which Adam sinned. If infants die by Adam’s offense, they must be guilty by Adam’s offense; for God does not visit with the punishment of sin where there is no sin.

Grace of God, and gift by grace ~These differ, as the one is the spring and fountain of the other. The gift, namely, the gift of righteousness (ver. 17), is a gift which results purely from grace. Some explain this phrase as if by a figure one thing is made into two. But they are really two things.

By one man, Jesus Christ ~ The gift comes only by Jesus Christ~thereby, nothin form us can add to our reconciliation, not even our faith, that so many labor to add to the gift purchased by Christ's obedience alone. Without his atonement for sin, the gift could not have been made. Grace could not operate till justice was satisfied. Eternally it was satisfied by the will and purpose of God through Jesus being made sin for us, that we might be made the righteousness of God through him.

Much more hath abounded unto many ~ The greater abounding cannot possibly be with respect to the greater number of individuals benefited.

 

[JIM]

You sound like a liberal Democrat, and if I did not know better, I would thought you were~ Democrats are famous for putting spins of others words, beliefs, etc.

You know that I teach that Christ's obedience and righteousness abounded much greater than where Adam's in took us. Do you need help in me again reminding you of this wonderful, precious, gloriously truth? Love to do so.


There is a likeness between the sin of Adam and the gift of righteousness by Christ. But, as in most instances with regard to types, the anti type surpasses the type; and while in some respects the type furnishes a likeness, in others it may be very dissimilar. The sin of Adam involved all his posterity in guilt and ruin, as they were all created in him as their head, and consequently in him are guilty by his disobedience.

This was a shadow of the gift of righteousness by grace. All Christ’s seed were created in Him, Ephesians 2:10, and are righteous by His obedience. But while the one was a type of the other in this respect, there is a great dissimilarity both as to the degree of the evil and of the blessing. The evil brought death, but the blessing not only recovered from ruin, but abounded to unspeakable happiness.

If through the offense of one many be dead, or died ~ Here it is taken for granted that ‘the many’ who die, die through Adam’s offense. Infants, then, die through Adam’s offense, for they are a part of ‘the many.’ But we have before seen with you many times over, that death ( BOTH natural and spiritual ) comes only by sin ~ that is, none die who are not sinners, and there is no sin where there is no law, ~ consequently infants are sinners, and must be included in the law under which Adam sinned. If infants die by Adam’s offense, they must be guilty by Adam’s offense; for God does not visit with the punishment of sin where there is no sin.

Grace of God, and gift by grace ~These differ, as the one is the spring and fountain of the other. The gift, namely, the gift of righteousness (ver. 17), is a gift which results purely from grace. Some explain this phrase as if by a figure one thing is made into two. But they are really two things.

By one man, Jesus Christ ~ The gift comes only by Jesus Christ~thereby, nothin form us can add to our reconciliation, not even our faith, that so many labor to add to the gift purchased by Christ's obedience alone. Without his atonement for sin, the gift could not have been made. Grace could not operate till justice was satisfied. Eternally it was satisfied by the will and purpose of God through Jesus being made sin for us, that we might be made the righteousness of God through him.

Much more hath abounded unto many ~ The greater abounding cannot possibly be with respect to the greater number of individuals benefited.

 

[JIM]

Red,

The mistake that you and so many others make with respect to this passage is that you think that somehow it is dealing with the effect our own sins on our own selves. It does not. It deals with the universal effect that the disobedience of Adam would had on all men had it not been for the universal effect that the obedience of Jesus did have on all men, The result was, if you read it carefully and understand what Paul is saying there, that the universal effect on all men of the obedience of Jesus made null and void the universal effect on all men of the disobedience of Adam. In other words that passage is not declaring Original Sin at birth upon mankind; rather it is declaring Original Grace at birth upon all mankind. What happens after that is upon each person individually. And that is taken up by Paul in the very next chapter. Actually it begins in the last two verses of Chapter 5 and then continues on into Chapter 6.

All of that is then in complete agreement with what Paul has to say in Ephesians and elsewhere: And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked....(Eph 2:1-2). These are the trespasses and sins in which you (we), not Adam, once walked in. It also aligns perfectly with God's declaration in Ezekiel that the soul who sins shall die (Ezek 18:4,20).

 

[Arial]

I am always amazed that so much emphasis is directed at the first part of those verses, and so little emphasis is given to understanding what has been said in the second part of those verses and what it all means.

Who is doing that? It happens to be the particular part of the scripture that is being addressed.

I will just say here that the real message there is the comparison between the effect of Adam's disobedience and the effect of Jesus' obedience. The really strange thing is that so many see the effect of Adam's disobedience to universal while the effect of Jesus' obedience to be severely limited; in other words, Adam's work is much, much more efficacious than that of Jesus. For me that is simply unacceptable and wrong. In verse 18, for example the meaning of all men in the second part is not different from the meaning of all men in the first part.

I am not missing the message of the scripture in total. We are discussing the effect Adam's sin had on all humanity as per your claim that Adam's sin is not imputed to humanity, and that because of Adam's sin we have a nature to sin, whereas we were created without a nature to sin, but an ability to do so.

The Bible shows that the effect of Adam's disobedience is universal. It also says so directly. "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." It shows and tell us that Christ's righteousness (obedience) is universal in that it includes the whole world, Jew and Gentile, but it is not universal in the same way as Adam's sin was. It does not include unbelievers, so it does not include every man, woman, and child. The They remain in Adam. The meaning of "all men" in the first part is every man, the natural condition of humanity. The meaning of "all men" in the second apart means all types of people all over the world. The Bible shows and tells us this. Empirical evidence shows us that. Not all men are saved. Only those in Christ through faith. "By grace you are saved through faith."

Many would agree with you, but that simply cannot be true. The physical death of mankind, or anything else for that matter, did not result from Adam's sin. In fact, the physical death of Adam didn't result from his sin. Adam died because God ejected him from the Garden taking away his access to the fruit of the tree of life which was there to stave off his physical death (Genesis 3:22)..

And exactly why did He eject him from the garden? First cause. Second cause.
"Through Adam death came to all men." Paul was speaking of physical death, which includes what is called spiritual death.
That there is an imputation of Adam's sin to all mankind does not mean that God is punishing us for Adam's sin. The punishment we receive and which Jesus took in our place, because they were imputed to Him, is for our sins. They can now not condemn us. He also defeated the power of Adam's sin imputed to us and the power of death to hold us.

Adam's sin imputed to us simply means that Adam as our federal head (the representative for all men) resulted in mankind as a species being condemned---fallen from the glory of God in which we were created. We became as a species, sinners.

The third form is the spiritual death that is the condition of the spirit of a physically alive man separated from God. This third form is the result of our sin in our life, as was Adam's (spiritual) death on the "day that he disobeyed God's command to not eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

All mankind suffers from this spiritual death, not just because of or when we commit our own sins. It is a result of what Adam did and it is why we cannot make ourselves spiritually alive. We cannot change who we are as a species in relation to a holy God. And because we are in this condition the Bible tells us we cannot even understand or desire spiritual things. That is, those things that pertain to life and holiness and our need for God. 1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness unto him; neither can he know them because they are spiritually discerned.

Which completely destroys the concept of free will choice for God. How can one who is spiritually dead even understand or desire, let alone believe, the spiritual things in the gospel. How can we do that if we are spiritually dead in our trespasses and sins? Unless we first be quickened to life, made spiritually alive? Can we raise ourselves from this condition of spiritually dead? Can we change the fact that we are born in Adam?

The place to look for that answer would be the scriptures. One of many come to mind immediately, and it says that God made us alive while we were in that condition, and He did it by making us alive with Christ, the resurrected Christ, and seated us with Christ and in Christ in the heavenly places. By grace, grace, grace, you have been saved, through faith that is a gift of God. A gift given, not offered. Eph 2:1-10.

 

[Red Baker]

Red,

The mistake that you and so many others make with respect to this passage is that you think that somehow it is dealing with the effect our own sins on our own selves. It does not. It deals with the universal effect that the disobedience of Adam would had on all men had it not been for the universal effect that the obedience of Jesus did have on all men, The result was, if you read it carefully and understand what Paul is saying there, that the universal effect on all men of the obedience of Jesus made null and void the universal effect on all men of the disobedience of Adam. In other words that passage is not declaring Original Sin at birth upon mankind; rather it is declaring Original Grace at birth upon all mankind. What happens after that is upon each person individually. And that is taken up by Paul in the very next chapter. Actually it begins in the last two verses of Chapter 5 and then continues on into Chapter 6.

All of that is then in complete agreement with what Paul has to say in Ephesians and elsewhere: And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked....(Eph 2:1-2). These are the trespasses and sins in which you (we), not Adam, once walked in. It also aligns perfectly with God's declaration in Ezekiel that the soul who sins shall die (Ezek 18:4,20).

Hope to feel better tomorrow, for I do have much I desire to say. Reading little today, but resting more. RB

 

[Arial]

According to John Calvin, predestination is God’s unchangeable decree from before the creation of the world that he would freely save some people (the elect), foreordaining them to eternal life, while the others (the reprobate) would be “barred from access to” salvation and sentenced to “eternal death (180, 184)
And I say to myself that I cannot believe my loving heavenly Father would take a soul and put in into a human embryo which He forms or places in the womb only to knowingly have made a "reprobate" with a death sentence.

You seem to be hung up (that dang old fence) on this one quote from Calvin in which he obviously said things before it and after it, and then with honest admission view it through your own understanding of it and the feelings that evokes.

Though you bring up a legitimate question that goes beyond the typical response that God does not make people sin, they sin because they want to, into since He created everyone, why does He create people He will not elect? Frustrating as it may be, we do not have the answer to that. God did not give it to us other than possibly when He says that even the wicked bring Him glory. Which doesn't explain a lot to us and then in some may suggest that God as an egotistical tyrant, in our feelings, our reaction to that.

And I suspect He does not tell us the things he does not tell us, because we don't need to know them right now and because the sheer fact of our finiteness makes it impossible for us to grasp, might even cause us to disintegrate with its vastness and perfection. Like seeing Him face to face. It is why much of what we accept and believe is through faith, but not blind faith. It is based on what God says and who He does show Himself to be.

I have a younger sister who cannot get past all these unanswerable whys to find peace in her salvation. They infringe upon the joy of salvation. But the way around them is not to try and find a way to make them not be true, and in doing so change the solidity of the self revealed God, by softening who He is.

After all the question could also be posed: What kind of a sadictive god would have this whole magnificent and perfect plan of redemption; send His own Son to do the work necessary to rescue people out of this prison of darkness and bring them into the light by substituting Himself for them in death on the cross; and then at the most crucial point in redemption, that place where Christ's suffering and death pays the price for sin and sinners, in effect step back out of the picture and leave the effectiveness of that suffering and death in the hands of people who consider Him their enemy and indeed are His enemies?

 

[JIM]

The Bible shows that the effect of Adam's disobedience is universal. It also says so directly. "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." I

That is a statement of what all have done having absolutly nothing to do with Adam's sin.

It shows and tell us that Christ's righteousness (obedience) is universal in that it includes the whole world, Jew and Gentile, but it is not universal in the same way as Adam's sin was.

Sure it is; it shows and tells us the Christ's obedience effects the very same ones as Adam's disobedience, the just born or yet to be born. The effect of that is to, in fact, negate the effects of Adam's sin.

It does not include unbelievers, so it does not include every man, woman, and child.

Where in Romans 5 does it say that?And exactly why did He eject him from the garden?
"....Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever--" therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken (Gen3:22,23).

All mankind suffers from this spiritual death, not just because of or when we commit our own sins.

Where does it say that anywhere?

and it is why we cannot make ourselves spiritually alive.

The reason that we cannot make ourselves spiritually alive is because we can't forgive our sins against God any more than we can forgive our sins against another person.

Which completely destroys the concept of free will choice for God. How can one who is spiritually dead even understand or desire, let alone believe, the spiritual things in the gospel. How can we do that if we are spiritually dead in our trespasses and sins? Unless we first be quickened to life, made spiritually alive? Can we raise ourselves from this condition of spiritually dead? Can we change the fact that we are born in Adam?

That is a total construct by the Calvinist to be consistent with the total construct of Total Depravity by the Calvinist.