Justification by the faith OF Jesus Christ

[JIM]

The truth is, everyone is a sinner in four ways because sin is:

1. Imputed in Adam
2. Inherited in nature
3. Imparted in conception
4. Included in choice

Only that 4th one is true. One might argue the 2nd is true also, but in fact the sin nature is not sin. The tendency to sin is not sin. Thus everyone is a sinner because everyone chooses to sin. "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," (Rom 3:23).

And just as a bit of interesting note, the very next verse says, " and are justified by his grace as a gift," Thus it is justification not faith that is the critical gift here and that by grace.

 

[Arial]

We were born pure and clean, we sinned and thus became dead in sin; we then need be reborn to be once again pure and clean.

That is your story and I see you are sticking to it.

How can you believe that God would do that? The very idea that He would cause us to be unclean and separated from Him at the very start is abhorrent.

Is it abhorrent that lions eat lambs? And they didn't before the fall as death came through Adam's sin, just as God promised. So yes it is abhorrent but that is not God's doing, it is Adam's doing. Perhaps you are wrestling with infant death and the thought that they would automatically go to hell. They haven't acted upon their nature yet, have no capacity to know right from wrong, have not exhibited open knowing rebellion against God, can't even know of His existence as God tells us nature itself shows. So I don't believe they do go to hell.

We also have David's statement that his dead infant son would not come to him, but one day he would go to his son, that gives further evidence of this.

Jesus came to restore the lion lying down with the lamb, and reconcile us to God.

We were made spiritually alive at birth when God formed our spirits in us. We sinned, we became spiritually dead and thus need to be spiritually reborn to be once again spiritually alive.

That is your story and you are sticking to it. But it is not what the Bible teaches. I suppose it does no harm.

I have - too many times to count. It most has to do with what we shall be in the hereafter and is not about being reborn.

Well Paul is writing to people who are reborn. It is what we are reborn to. Our blessed hope.

That is the physical part of us. Our spirits are not made out of dust. God forms the spirit in us. Now I have do doubt the spirit is made also, but there is no indication whatsoever whether that spirit is made from something or created from nothing. Either way it has nothing to do with Adam.

You missed my point and therefore reached a wrong conclusion. Oh well. I'm about done banging my head against this wall.

Yes, like begets like and Spirit begets spirit. Our spirit comes from Spirit - God is Spirit. I does not come from Adam or anyone else.

The only ones who have the Holy Spirit or are quickened to life as the Bible puts it, are those who are in Christ through faith. We all have a spirit because that is the type of being God created us to be, and it is distinct from our body but it is not distinct from us, and neither is our body. We are a cohesive unit.

Of course the spiritually dead can believe. I have never said otherwise. It is those who believe who are regenerated. Being spiritually dead does not preclude any physical ability.

They can't believe spiritual things. The Bible says so. I have given you the scriptures explained them and you replied that was just Calvinism. So I guess that means you simply aren't going to consider it, even though you can't disprove it. And why do you suggest that I am presenting being spiritually dead as having no physical ability? Where on earth did that come from?

Yes, the "will live" means to come alive, to be reborn, to be regenerated. Jesus says those who hear and believe will be born again. Not vice-versa as you propose.

Actually He says those who believe in Him will have eternal life---not come alive. And it doesn't say those who hear and believe will be born again. Spiritually dead people cannot do anything to be born again, anymore than they did or could do anything about being born the first time----in Adam btw, one of his descendents. Spiritually dead people cannot believe spiritual things since they can't even understand them. (I gave yo those scriptures too.) They have to be reborn of God, from above, not by flesh or the will of man, but of God.

 

[Arial]

Only that 4th one is true. One might argue the 2nd is true also, but in fact the sin nature is not sin. The tendency to sin is not sin. Thus everyone is a sinner because everyone chooses to sin. "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," (Rom 3:23).

Well I am sure you know more than those who put that together. But you simply say they aren't true and don't even attempt to prove there untruthfulness by anything other than your say so. And I have shown you again and again from scripture and exegesis of scripture, and not only myself but others here have done the same for you, that what you say does not agree with them or with cold hard facts of reality. But you will have none of it. After while a person just has to let it go----and I do.

Thanks for the chat.

 

[Red Baker]

We were born pure and clean, we sinned and thus became dead in sin; we then need be reborn to be once again pure and clean.

Jim, I'm going to say a few things and then back to finish Romans 5.

Jim, you cannot provide one scripture proving your position, not one. Not only that, you own system shows to any person who has a knowledge of the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ, that you do not understand how a sinner is made the righteousness of God~you think that he is made so by his own corrupt heart~rejecting the truth that God must first give a heart for a person to believe what he has done for his people.

Ezekiel 36:26~"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh."

We are are born with a stony, rebellious, wicked heart, and only time will prove it to be so~in children we can control them to a certain point, but time will prove who they truly are, ( the product of the fall of Adam and Eve ) and even quicker if left to themselves!
If this is not so, then pray to tell me why God, yes God, commanded to killed everything among the Amaleks, even infant and suckling children, if they were so pure as you claim? They were condemned sinners in Adam sir! Or, God would have been unjust to commanded to kill infants and sucklings. But, God is perfectly just in all of his ways.

1 Samuel 15:3~"Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass."

Jim, there are other instances where this took place. How about the flood? Do you think only adults drowned in the flood? Do you think Preacher Noah has a sign on the side of the Ark..."SMILE, God LOVES YOU"? They were objects of his wrath, and hatred, as he viewed them IN ADAM and left them there!

Noah found GRACE in the eyes of the Lord, only because he purpose to show grace to Noah, and not to others. If this is too hard for you to accept, then closed your Bible for within theses are the teachings of God himself.

How can you believe that God would do that? The very idea that He would cause us to be unclean and separated from Him at the very start is abhorrent.

JIm, again, as I have said in time past, God did not cause thsi wicked mess, Adam and Eve did! Blame you family tree, not God! God created Adam and Eve after his glorious image in righteousness/holiness, wisdom, knowledge, understanding, the Devil beguiled mother Eve, and Adam, allowed his wife to cause him to sinned in following after her~yet HE'S the guilty person being he head of his wife. Again, do not be so foolish as to blame God, that's what the devil desires for you to do. I know 3 Resurrections does not believe the devil is around any more, but he IS, working his deceptions in the hearts of those who will allow him space and opportunity.

We were made spiritually alive at birth when God formed our spirits in us. We sinned, we became spiritually dead and thus need to be spiritually reborn to be once again spiritually alive.

Again, if born again at conception, then I present a few problem for your theology, for it is certainly not biblical.

Why was it absolutely necessary for Christ to be conceived by the Holy Ghost, and not through Adam's generation? SImply answer, sir: All that came through Adam were born in his likeness~which is corrupt and evil, one that is at enmity against God!

Genesis 5:3~"And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son IN HIS OWN LIKENESS, AFTER HIS IMAGE; and called his name Seth:

No longer after God's image, but Adam's fallen sinful image, the image of the devil himself! You cannot escape this truth, though I'm sure you will labor to try, but you will only dig yourself a deeper hole.

Of course the spiritually dead can believe. I have never said otherwise. It is those who believe who are regenerated. Being spiritually dead does not preclude any physical ability.

No sir, it does not preclude any physical ability~but, certainly does spiritually speaking!

A spiritual dead person can believe in a lot of things and do a lot, but he cannot be subject to the word of God because the flesh is at enmity against God. When Adam sinned, he did not seek God, he sought to hide himself from God and sought to cover his own sinfulness by the labor of his own hands.

Romans 8:6-8~"For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."

You claim, that all are pure and righteous until they sin personally, and then are what? Help me out. Never mind, I have the scriptures of TRUTH that teaches me that the carnal mind is at enmity against God~Jim, that means it is at WAR against GOd, truth, righteousness, etc. The carnal mind is not just another enemy, it is worse than that, it is at WAR (like you are now doing) with God, of all people, WITH GOD!

Jim, the carnal mind, or man living in the flesh without the indwelling Spirit of God, is not subject to the law of God and indeed cannot be! Yet you say to God, YES IT CAN BE! Now, who shall we believe and follow?

One more thought~Jesus taught contrary to you, or, I should say, you teach contrary to Jesus, when he said ALL that are born of flesh MUST BE BORN AGAIN. Because that which is born of flesh IS FLESH, or, is sinful, wicked, ungodly, etc. One must be born again, before they can see, hear, and believe was the message to Nicodemus.

Jesus says those who hear and believe will be born again.

Show those very words to me that you said Jesus said! You cannot produce them, for they are not there in the holy scriptures. Only in your gospel that is based upon man being the deciding factor in his new birth. I know they are not there, for I almost know the NT by heart. I'll be waiting.

 

[JIM]

That is your story and I see you are sticking to it.

Only because it is the truth.

Is it abhorrent that lions eat lambs?

No, it is precisely how God created it.

And they didn't before the fall as death came through Adam's sin, just as God promised.

That would be funny if so many people didn't believe that falsehood.

So yes it is abhorrent but that is not God's doing, it is Adam's doing.

No, as I said, it is not abhorrent and there is no way that Adam could do that. If anything like that actually happened only God could do it and He didn't

Perhaps you are wrestling with infant death and the thought that they would automatically go to hell. They haven't acted upon their nature yet, have no capacity to know right from wrong, have not exhibited open knowing rebellion against God, can't even know of His existence as God tells us nature itself shows. So I don't believe they do go to hell.

No, I don wrestle with infant death. They haven't sinned and they have not, as you believe, had Adam's sin imputed to them. They, as Jesus said, "to such belongs the kingdom of heaven" Matt 19.14). Clearly they are not dead in trespasses and sins.

That is your story and you are sticking to it. But it is not what the Bible teaches. I suppose it does no harm.

As I said that is my story because it is the truth. It is what the Bible teaches. Teaching the untruths of the unbiblical doctrine is always harmful.

You missed my point and therefore reached a wrong conclusion. Oh well. I'm about done banging my head against this wall.

Perhaps you could clarify your point to me and bang your head against the wall one more time at least.

The only ones who have the Holy Spirit or are quickened to life as the Bible puts it, are those who are in Christ through faith. We all have a spirit because that is the type of being God created us to be, and it is distinct from our body but it is not distinct from us, and neither is our body. We are a cohesive unit.

We are born free from sin with a spirit from God undefiled. It does not need to be quickened to life because it is living already.It is the ones who have sinned that need to be quickened.

They can't believe spiritual things. The Bible says so. I have given you the scriptures explained them and you replied that was just Calvinism. So I guess that means you simply aren't going to consider it, even though you can't disprove it. And why do you suggest that I am presenting being spiritually dead as having no physical ability? Where on earth did that come from?

If you are referencing 1 Corinthians 2 you should know that chapter is Paul's defense of his apostleship, that what he teaches is by divine revelation. His distinction between natural and spiritual is not between unregenerate and regenerate; rather it is between those receiving natural relation and those receiving divine like the apostles and prophets.

Actually He says those who believe in Him will have eternal life---not come alive.

Joh 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
Joh 5:25 "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
Joh 5:26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.
Joh 5:27 And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man.
Joh 5:28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice
Joh 5:29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.
There are two "resurrections being spoken of in those six verses. The first one is in verses 24 and 25. it describes the here and now, not the end of days when Christ returns. It says the time for that is coming and is here now. The (spiritually) dead will hear the voice of the Son of Goad and those who hear will live.

The second one is in verse 28 and 29. That decribes the events at the end of the age when Christ returns when the physically dead are raised judged and sentenced.

And it doesn't say those who hear and believe will be born again.

Jesus clearly describes being born again there. Being born again is perfectly described as passing from death to life. And Jesus says that happens to whoever hears His word and believes in Him who sent Jesus, namely God, has eternal life. That is regeneration.

Spiritually dead people cannot do anything to be born again,

Spiritually dead people are not precluded from doing anything physical. Believing is clearly a physical response. It comes from hearing the word of God, the word about Christ, the gospel (Rom 10:17). They cannot regenerate themselves, but they can hear and believe and that is who God chooses to regenerate.

 

[JIM]

Well I am sure you know more than those who put that together. But you simply say they aren't true and don't even attempt to prove there untruthfulness by anything other than your say so. And I have shown you again and again from scripture and exegesis of scripture, and not only myself but others here have done the same for you, that what you say does not agree with them or with cold hard facts of reality. But you will have none of it. After while a person just has to let it go----and I do.

Thanks for the chat.

I fully understand that you think they are biblical. But that comes from improper exegesis of scripture. It derives from the false premise of Total Depravity.

 

[JIM]

Jim, I'm going to say a few things and then back to finish Romans 5.

Jim, you cannot provide one scripture proving your position, not one. Not only that, you own system shows to any person who has a knowledge of the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ, that you do not understand how a sinner is made the righteousness of God~you think that he is made so by his own corrupt heart~rejecting the truth that God must first give a heart for a person to believe what he has done for his people.

We are are born with a stony, rebellious, wicked heart, and only time will prove it to be so~in children we can control them to a certain point, but time will prove who they truly are, ( the product of the fall of Adam and Eve ) and even quicker if left to themselves!
If this is not so, then pray to tell me why God, yes God, commanded to killed everything among the Amaleks, even infant and suckling children, if they were so pure as you claim? They were condemned sinners in Adam sir! Or, God would have been unjust to commanded to kill infants and sucklings. But, God is perfectly just in all of his ways.

Oh stop it Red. I do not believe that anyone is made the righteousness of God by his own corrupt heart. And if that is how you understand anything that I have ever said, that tells me precisely why you fail to understand so much of the biblical presentation of soteriology.

As for that stoney, rebellious, wicked heart that you think God implanted in the newly born, I reject that false accusation against God, Himself. The physical death of anything has nothing whatsoever to do with whether that individual is saved or lost. There is no such thing as condemned sinners in Adam. God did not and does not form dead spirits in the newborn. At some point in the life of those newborn children they will sin and will become dead in their trespasses and sins, assuming they live that long.

And yes, God is perfectly just inn all of His ways. He would not impute the sin of Adam to anyone else. No one is condemned because Adam sinned. No one dies spiritually because Adam sinned. No one dies physically because Adam sinned. Why is that? It is as you say, God is perfectly just in all of His ways; He would not do such a heinous thing.

JIm, again, as I have said in time past, God did not cause thsi wicked mess, Adam and Eve did!

No, Adam and Eve did not cause that wicked mess. The people there at the time caused that wicked mess.

Blame you family tree, not God!

Red, blame yourself, not God, not your family tree.

God created Adam and Eve after his glorious image in righteousness/holiness, wisdom, knowledge, understanding,

The didn't even know good and evil until after they had disobeyed God (Gen 3:22)

Again, if born again at conception, then I present a few problem for your theology, for it is certainly not biblical.

Why was it absolutely necessary for Christ to be conceived by the Holy Ghost, and not through Adam's generation? SImply answer, sir: All that came through Adam were born in his likeness~which is corrupt and evil, one that is at enmity against God!

Born again at conception?? What nonsense is that? You are right, the again part is meaningful. One is born alive, dies from sinning, then if he believes he is born again.

First, Jesus was conceived through Adam's generation. Trying to deny that is pure foolishness. Mary is a descendent of Adam and Eve. The reason that it was necessary for Jesus to be conceived by the Holy Spirit is that otherwise He would not have been begotten of God; He would not have been God's only begotten Son.

Act 13:32 And we bring you the good news that what God promised to the fathers,
Act 13:33 this he has fulfilled to us their children by raising Jesus, as also it is written in the second Psalm, "'You are my Son, today I have begotten you.'

No longer after God's image, but Adam's fallen sinful image, the image of the devil himself! You cannot escape this truth, though I'm sure you will labor to try, but you will only dig yourself a deeper hole.

No sir, it does not preclude any physical ability~but, certainly does spiritually speaking!

A spiritual dead person can believe in a lot of things and do a lot, but he cannot be subject to the word of God because the flesh is at enmity against God. When Adam sinned, he did not seek God, he sought to hide himself from God and sought to cover his own sinfulness by the labor of his own hands.

You claim, that all are pure and righteous until they sin personally, and then are what? Help me out. Never mind, I have the scriptures of TRUTH that teaches me that the carnal mind is at enmity against God~Jim, that means it is at WAR against GOd, truth, righteousness, etc. The carnal mind is not just another enemy, it is worse than that, it is at WAR (like you are now doing) with God, of all people, WITH GOD!

Jim, the carnal mind, or man living in the flesh without the indwelling Spirit of God, is not subject to the law of God and indeed cannot be! Yet you say to God, YES IT CAN BE! Now, who shall we believe and follow?

One more thought~Jesus taught contrary to you, or, I should say, you teach contrary to Jesus, when he said ALL that are born of flesh MUST BE BORN AGAIN. Because that which is born of flesh IS FLESH, or, is sinful, wicked, ungodly, etc. One must be born again, before they can see, hear, and believe was the message to Nicodemus.

Show those very words to me that you said Jesus said! You cannot produce them, for they are not there in the holy scriptures. Only in your gospel that is based upon man being the deciding factor in his new birth. I know they are not there, for I almost know the NT by heart. I'll be waiting.

Red, all of that, every bit of that, is a claim against God that the spirit He formed in man is dead. That is just plain wrong. Your reference to Jesus' words to Nicodemus, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" (John3:6), is the proclamation that the spirit of man is not from flesh. A person's spirit does not come, as you believe, through their parents. A person's spirit is born of the Spirit. At some point that person sins, dies spiritually and needs to be reborn of the Spirit.

 

[Red Baker]

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.​

"Nevertheless"~“Nevertheless,” or notwithstanding, death reigned even though personal sin was not imputed (5:13) In spite of the necessity of a law to bring about sin, there was a law in the world before Moses’ Law. There was imputation of sin and the consequence of death in the world before the Law of Moses.

"Death reigned from Adam to Moses"~All men died from Abel (first recorded death) to Pharaoh and his army (before God’s Law at Sinai). Paul reduced Jews and Gentiles to one common father and death – Adam, not Abraham, not Moses. We are not heretical Dispensationalists of the Scofield variety, but we do see three dispensations quite clearly: the patriarchs from Adam to Moses in this verse, Moses to John the Baptist with the nation of Israel, and the gospel kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ (Luke 16:16; Heb 12:28-29). Men were judged as sinners and condemned to death by Adam’s disobedience apart from their own

"Even"~The force of this argument is in the expression introduced by “even,” indicating an extreme case. Even. Adverb. Prefixed to a subject, object, or predicate, or to the expression of a qualifying circumstance, to emphasize its identity. Prefixed to the particular word, phrase, or clause, on which the extreme character of the statement or supposition depends. Proverbs 16:4 is an example we often use of even identifying an extreme case to prove the point.

Cain sinned (Gen 4:7), Sodom sinned (Gen 18:20), Joseph’s brethren also sinned (Gen 42:22).

There must be a law to justly charge sin (5:13), and there must be sin to justly punish with death. But death occurred thousands of years without a law in force like the one God had given to Adam. Those without a positive commandment and threatened death for punishment fit this description.This is as strong and clear a proof of imputation and representation that can reasonably be made. Men died without breaking a law to commit sin that justified death ~they sinned another way! Infants, idiots, and other helpless ones fit this description (Genesis 7:21-22; Ex 1:22; 12:29-30) Infants are conceived in sin (Psalm 51:5), and they prove their sin nature at birth (Psalm 58:3). Emphasis is beyond those who had laws similar to Adam (Gen 4:3-7; 9:6; 19:7; 20:3-6; 39:9). If the point is only creation, providence, nature, and conscience, such were taught (1:18 – 3:20).

"Over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression"~ Although the Law of Moses was not given for thousands of years, men still suffered the penalty of death. Moses’ Law simply brought another source of condemnation to those under it (Romans 3:19; 5:20). All men had the best chance IN ADAM than in any other way possible AFTER THE FALL!

"Who is the figure of him that was to come"~Since Adam’s sin is imputed to men, therefore Adam is the figure of Jesus Christ (Rom 4:6-8; 5:12). The only possible he is a figure of Jesus Christ.

In the gospel that Paul taught and is taught all through the scriptures~the substitutionary life and death of Jesus are imputed to God’s elect (2nd Corinthians 5:21; Ist Peter 2:24).So, Adam is a figure of Jesus Christ according to the testimony of Scripture (Ist Corinthians 15:21-22,45-49). The comparison, which will be fully developed, teaches unconditional eternal life by Jesus alone. Jesus Christ had already come when Paul wrote, so he refers to his prophesied coming as past. Adam is still a figure today: Paul is still using him as a figure, and men are still sinners by him. The analogy between Adam and Christ is the role they fill in representing two groups of men.

 

[Red Baker]

Oh stop it Red. I do not believe that anyone is made the righteousness of God by his own corrupt heart. And if that is how you understand anything that I have ever said, that tells me precisely why you fail to understand so much of the biblical presentation of soteriology.

You have said many times over~man can believe and repent, and be baptized all while still in a state of being enmity against God~while STILL IN THE FLESH!

How is that not the same as to what I said? Jim, once a man is born of God, he no longer lives in the flesh, so far as, his spiritual life is concern and so far as his ability/powers to submit to the word of God to the laws of God.

Romans 8:8,9~"So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

If a person does not have the Spirit of God within them, they are not of God, but still in the flesh~to be in flesh, means you are not capable of submitting to the scriptures, impossible. Yet your theology said that a man in flesh can submit~you sir, are in great error regardless what you think otherwise. The word of God declares you and your teachings on soteriology to be against God's testimony of the truth~my soteriology is sound according to Romans 8, and other scriptures we could add. Jim, you will lose this battle with me every time, because you have another gospel you are trying to push on God's people, but we will not fall for it.

Jim may respect your zeal, and will honour your age, being not far from the century mark, but will fight against your gospel for it goes against the doctrine of free grace~free justification, through the obedience of ONE~JESUS CHRIST, God's holy child! Not yours or mine, dear sir.

As for that stoney, rebellious, wicked heart that you think God implanted in the newly born, I reject that false accusation against God, Himself.

Jim, how many times must I tell you that God didn't create Adam which such an heart? Adam sinned and lost the image of God, and took on the image of the devil himself! He passes this image down to his posterity, you and me! I posted Genesis 5:3 this week for your consideration and for others who may read these posts. I did not write the scriptures, ( Genesis 5:3 )holy men of old did who were under the power of the Holy Ghost were moved to do~per 2nd Peter 1.

There is no such thing as condemned sinners in Adam

Who are you arguing with? Not me, for all I'm doing is providing you scriptures. Read my separate posts on Roman 5~ there I deal with this one point. I will say this, by your statement, you are also saying~there is no such person as a righteous person through Jesus' obedience alone.

God did not and does not form dead spirits in the newborn. At some point in the life of those newborn children they will sin and will become dead in their trespasses and sins, assuming they live that long.

Adam's likeness after his fall, was passed down to his posterity! Reject it this truth all you want, but it will not change the fact that it was.

Yes they will sin and it does not take very long for that to happen! Within the first few months, you will see their little sinful nature show itself. Jim, by the very fact they die proves their sinful nature~the wages of sin is DEATH, both physical and spiritual. They are born spiritual dead~need proof?

Born again at conception?? What nonsense is that? You are right, the again part is meaningful. One is born alive, dies from sinning, then if he believes he is born again.

I just was quoting YOU! You said all men are born RIGHTEOUS, PURE, in fellowship with God! Your doctrine said this, NOT ME. It is worse than nonsense, it is a corruption of God's word.

Act 13:32 And we bring you the good news that what God promised to the fathers,
Act 13:33 this he has fulfilled to us their children by raising Jesus, as also it is written in the second Psalm, "'You are my Son, today I have begotten you.'

Jim, you are confused~these scriptures does not have reference to Christ's conception but his resurrection!

Also, Jesus had to be conceived by God, so as not to be born of Adam's loins where God placed the source of Adam's likeness. The seed comes from MAN, not the woman.

Red, all of that, every bit of that, is a claim against God that the spirit He formed in man is dead. That is just plain wrong. Your reference to Jesus' words to Nicodemus, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" (John3:6), is the proclamation that the spirit of man is not from flesh. A person's spirit does not come, as you believe, through their parents. A person's spirit is born of the Spirit. At some point that person sins, dies spiritually and needs to be reborn of the Spirit.

I want to address this separetly~later....RB

 

[Red Baker]

Red, all of that, every bit of that, is a claim against God that the spirit He formed in man is dead. That is just plain wrong. Your reference to Jesus' words to Nicodemus, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" (John3:6), is the proclamation that the spirit of man is not from flesh. A person's spirit does not come, as you believe, through their parents. A person's spirit is born of the Spirit. At some point that person sins, dies spiritually and needs to be reborn of the Spirit.

I have a few minutes~Jim it is dead spiritually speaking toward righteousness, understanding and the wisdom of God, etc. It is at enmity against God; period! without question it is so.

Jim, it is clearly seen in little children from a very, very young age. We teach them not to lie, not to be selfless, to think of others first, then themselves second, which is a lifelong battle with their sinful flesh. You know this to be so, I know it as I see it in my 18 grandchildren, and every other person knows this to be so. But more importantly I know this to be true from the holy scriptures, God's very own testimony who cannot lie.

Jim you said: That is just plain wrong. Your reference to Jesus' words to Nicodemus, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" (John3:6), is the proclamation that the spirit of man is not from flesh.

What are talking about? Jesus' words is not speaking about the spirit of man is not of his flesh! What the Lord is saying to Nicodemus is this:

That which is born of flesh IS FLESH~that is~sinful, carnal, is not subject to the law of God, and niether can be! So many scriptures could be given but Romans 8:1-9 should not be neglected in trying to understand what the Saviour meant by FLESH.

That which is born of the Spirit is spirit~or, spiritual, for we now have the mind of Christ, not the old Adam's mind, or the flesh.... ruling, teaching us.

1st Corinthians 2:14-16~"But the natural man ( OR, the FLESH) receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual (OR, BORN OF the SPIRIT ) judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Jim, you said: A person's spirit is born of the Spirit.

God breathed into Adam's nostrils the breath of life, and he became a living soul~it is now through procreation~so much so, that we can say~he has the same spirit that his father has in this that or the other.

Jim you said: At some point that person sins, dies spiritually and needs to be reborn of the Spirit.

At SOME point???? let PAul help you out.

1st Corinthians 15:21~"For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead."

By Adam came death to ALL MEN, because ALL sinned in Adam!

Romans 5:12~"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"

IN Adam! See the posts on Romans 5:12 above.

 

[JIM]

By Adam came death to ALL MEN, because ALL sinned in Adam!

IN Adam! See the posts on Romans 5:12 above.

Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned--

Where are the words "sinned in Adam"? It is not there. Paul didn't put it there. You put it there and that changes the meaning entirely.

 

[JIM]

Jim, you are confused~these scriptures does not have reference to Christ's conception but his resurrection!

So your view is that Jesus wasn't God's begotten Son before that?

 

[Red Baker]

So your view is that Jesus wasn't God's begotten Son before that?

Jim, Acts 13:32-34 is speaking of Jesus' resurrection as I said, not him being begotten of God! That's in Luke 1.

"And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. AS CONCERNING THAT HE RAISED HIM UP FROM THE DEAD, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.

So your view is that Jesus wasn't God's begotten Son before that?

Before he raised him from the dead? Of course he was. I was only pointing out that the phrase ~Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee, has reference to his resurrection, which you applied to his conception.

You need another cup of coffee my friend. You can do better that that.

 

[brightfame52]

Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned--

Where are the words "sinned in Adam"? It is not there. Paul didn't put it there. You put it there and that changes the meaning entirely.

Its implied, Adam was their representative natural head. Just like when levi was in the loins of Abraham, before he was born, Gods Truth said he , levi payed tithes to Melchizadk when Abraham did. Heb 7:9-10

9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.

10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him
See Adams physical seed was yet in his loins when he sinned against God. You understand So when he sinned, all sinned Rom 5:12
Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned--

 

[JIM]

Its implied, Adam was their representative natural head.

Head -- Smead!! Attaching Adam's sin to the whole rest of humanity by appealing to a nebulous assignment of Adam as some unspoken and unbiblical federal headship is just so wrong.

See Adams physical seed was yet in his loins when he sinned against God. You understand So when he sinned, all sinned Rom 5:12
Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned--

The statement that death spread to all men because all sinned isn't about sinning in Adam, a concept that is itself absolutely absurd. It is a statement about the result of each individual due to the sins of that individual. Adam sinned, he died spiritually; I sinned, I died spiritually; you sinned, you died spiritually. God has no need to administer a totally unjust and wicked imputation to you or me from any other person, including Adam.

 

[brightfame52]

Head -- Smead!! Attaching Adam's sin to the whole rest of humanity by appealing to a nebulous assignment of Adam as some unspoken and unbiblical federal headship is just so wrong.

The statement that death spread to all men because all sinned isn't about sinning in Adam, a concept that is itself absolutely absurd. It is a statement about the result of each individual due to the sins of that individual. Adam sinned, he died spiritually; I sinned, I died spiritually; you sinned, you died spiritually. God has no need to administer a totally unjust and wicked imputation to you or me from any other person, including Adam.

Yes Head, Christ was the head of a people in Him, just as Adam was

 

[JIM]

Jim, Acts 13:32-34 is speaking of Jesus' resurrection as I said, not him being begotten of God! That's in Luke 1.
"And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. AS CONCERNING THAT HE RAISED HIM UP FROM THE DEAD, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.


Before he raised him from the dead? Of course he was. I was only pointing out that the phrase ~Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee, has reference to his resurrection, which you applied to his conception.

You need another cup of coffee my friend. You can do better that that.

Admittedly a poor reference, but nevertheless absolutely true. God didn't form a dead spirit in me, you or anyone else. There is no need to conjure up any reason why Jesus was born free of sin; all are born free of sin. You needn't be concerned about Adam's sin; you need only to recognize and be concerned only about your own sin. Death spread to you, because you sinned--

And just as a side note; God didn't form the Spirit of Jesus in Him; His preincarnate Spirit is what came to earth and to take on the flesh of man.
Heb 2:14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same.

 

[JIM]

Yes Head, Christ was the head of a people in Him, just as Adam was

Christ is LORD of all.
1Co 11:3 But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man.

Some may try to limit that to just Christians. I think that is a limitation that does not stand, even if all do not recognize and accept that He is LORD of all.
Php_2:10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

He is head of the church but in a difference sense; and that does not preclude His being the LORD of all
Eph 1:22 And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church,

I might add here that Jesus, in being the head of all people, was the head over even Adam.
John 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

 

[brightfame52]

Christ is LORD of all.
1Co 11:3 But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man.

Some may try to limit that to just Christians. I think that is a limitation that does not stand, even if all do not recognize and accept that He is LORD of all.
Php_2:10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

He is head of the church but in a difference sense; and that does not preclude His being the LORD of all
Eph 1:22 And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church,

I might add here that Jesus, in being the head of all people, was the head over even Adam.
John 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

Im saying Christ was and is a Head like Adam was

 

[jeremiah1five]

Galatians 2:16~"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."This is heaven's declaration of its definition of the gospel of Jesus Christ. If any man adds to, or takes away form this definition of the gospel of Jesus Christ, let him be accursed from God.A man may not have full knowledge of this truth, and be free of God's curse, yet if man hears this truth of this and THEN reject what he hears, then that person has put himself under God's curse.The curse is pronounce in chapter one; the definition of the gospel is here stated very clearly in words that should not even be argued over, yet they are.In the last post we heard Paul tell us that no man is justified by the works of the law; here he tell us in biblically testimony of how one is justified.

1. " but by the faith OF Jesus Christ"~
2. What is “the faith of Jesus Christ”? For it is the means of our legal justification before God Because we trust our King James Bible, we do not alter it to read “faith in Jesus Christ,” which modern translations do to reduce the Bible to their concept of faith and its role Yet, the simple genitive case does not prove whether it is Christ’s faith or ours in Christ Consider well the example of similar language to Gal 2:16 in James 2:1. Whose faith? Context determines if the simple genitive is subjective or objective, which is answered by determining if the object of the preposition is the subject or object of the possession. See cases of subjective-genitive (Hag 2:7; Dan 11:37; Ist John 3:16; James 2:4; 2nd Cor 5:14). See cases of objective-genitive (Luke 11:42; Ist Timothy 3:6; 6:10; Acts 13:34; Jude 1:21).
3. We understand “the faith of Jesus Christ” to be His singular obedience to God for us, for the rest of the New Testament teaches justification by His work for us (Rom 5:17-19).
4. Did Jesus Christ have faith in God, and did this faith play a major role in our justification. The Lord Jesus Christ was more faithful than Moses, who had great faith (Heb 3:1-6). Jesus is not the object of justifying knowledge, making it our knowledge; but rather He is the subject of it, for our justification is by His perfect knowledge of God’s will (Is 53:11).
5. What a travesty that some interject man’s faith and knowledge into our legal justification. The knowledge Jesus Christ possessed was that faith and confidence in God that led Him all His life; which took Him through Gethsemane, His horrible trial, and His miserable crucifixion, until He finally committed His spirit to His Father at the moment of death. He had great in faith and trust in God, as enemies said (Ps 16:8; Heb 2:13; Matt 27:43).
6. Justification is by the obedience of One, and He obeyed in life and death (Rom 5:15-19). Without faith, He could not have pleased God; but He did please (Heb 11:6; Matt 23:23). Jesus definitely did trust in God (Hebrews 2:13; 3:1-2; 5:7-8; Matt 27:43; Luke 23:46). It was Jesus Christ’s faithful obedience to God’s will that truly saved us (Heb 10:7-10). His perfect fulfillment and obedience to the law required more faith than any other man.
7. Could “the faith of Jesus Christ” be subject-genitive and teach justification by Christ alone Absolutely! Then the sense would be we are justified by the gospel or religion of Christ. The words are used in this sense in James 2:1 and Rev 14:12 and possibly other places.
8. How does our faith of believing in Christ related to Jesus Christ’s faith in God His Father? Faith neither regenerates us vitally, justifies us legally, or elects us eternally. It is FOR us!.
9. Our faith is the first act of a regenerated heart to lay hold of eternal life by God’s grace. To faith we add good works of seven fruits to prove election (2nd Pet 1:5-15; James 2:14-26). Faith does nothing more than any other good work of the new man (1st Timothy 6:17-19). Faith, and the works that follow true faith, are the evidence of eternal life to our hearts.
10. Paul and Peter gave up all hope in the Law to believe Jesus Christ alone for justification. SO, why should Peter require MORE from the Gentiles?
11. Before leaving this important truth concerning the faith of Jesus Christ, please consider the other scriptures that teach the very same truth as Galatians 2:16. In Order: Acts 3:16~"And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which IS BY HIM hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all."; Romans 3:22~ "Even the righteousness of God which IS by the faith OF Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: " Almost the same wording found in Galatians 2:16; Philippians 3: 9~"And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which IS THROUGH the faith OF Jesus Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: " Not one or two scriptures saying the same truth but from the mouth of several men full of the Holy Ghost and from several books of the NT, agreeing on this true gospel of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ AS A MAN had perfect faith, which produced a perfect life of obedience before God's holy law for God's elect, securing for them the free gift of eternal life, as their perfect surety to God. This IS the truth of the gospel, any other is not, but a watered down version of the truth.

Excellent!
I agree it is by HIS faith in God His Father by which our grounds for our justification is met.
We were dead in trespasses and sin and needed someone ALIVE to stand in the gap for us and He did it!
Hallelu-JAH and Amen!