• **Notifications**: Notifications can be dismissed by clicking on the "x" on the righthand side of the notice.
  • **New Style**: You can now change style options. Click on the paintbrush at the bottom of this page.
  • **Donations**: If the Lord leads you please consider helping with monthly costs and up keep on our Forum. Click on the Donate link In the top menu bar. Thanks
  • **New Blog section**: There is now a blog section. Check it out near the Private Debates forum or click on the Blog link in the top menu bar.
  • Welcome Visitors! Join us and be blessed while fellowshipping and celebrating our Glorious Salvation In Christ Jesus.

Justification by the faith OF Jesus Christ

That is a statement of what all have done having absolutly nothing to do with Adam's sin.
Did you read the link in post #127 that @Rella gave? That will present that you are mistaken and support it with the scriptures. You can not read it have no interest in finding that out even if it is true. Or you can read it and dismiss is because it is not what you believe. Or you can read it and say well, that does make sense.
Sure it is; it shows and tells us the Christ's obedience effects the very same ones as Adam's disobedience, the just born or yet to be born. The effect of that is to, in fact, negate the effects of Adam's sin.
Did Adam's sin affect everyone? Do all sin? The result of Adam's sin original sin. Adam's sin imputed to all mankind is man's position before God. Paul is those passages is dealing with Adam's sin not original sin.

Is everyone saved by Christ? No. Only those placed in Him through faith. They do not effect the same ones.
Where in Romans 5 does it say that?And exactly why did He eject him from the garden?
"....Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever--" therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken (Gen3:22,23).
Are you a universalist? Are unbelievers saved? If unbelievers are not saved it is because they are not in Christ. Therefore the fall is universal, the redemption is not.

Why did God not want them to eat of the tree of life? Because they sinned and all their posterity would be sinners. And sinners cannot be given eternal life as the sentence of sin is death.
Where does it say that anywhere?
Eph 2:1-10 is one place.
The reason that we cannot make ourselves spiritually alive is because we can't forgive our sins against God any more than we can forgive our sins against another person.
We can't make ourselves spiritually alive because we can't change our nature, we can't get out of Adam. Just like we can't get out or ourselves being the product of our mother and father, and all our ancestors throughout history. We are who we are and we are what we are.

If the question were to be asked, "What are humans?" the truest most basic answer would be, "Sinners." We aren't sinners because we sin, we sin because we are sinners.
That is a total construct by the Calvinist to be consistent with the total construct of Total Depravity by the Calvinist.
Haven't we been over this before? Resorting to refuting a presentation simply by saying that it is Calvinist is a non argument. And it is done because what is presented leaves no room for being refuted. In this case I gave the scriptures in Eph 2 and expounded on them, using your own definition of spiritual death. There is not a single flaw in the presentation. It aligned perfectly with the scripture.
 
Red,

The mistake that you and so many others make with respect to this passage is that you think that somehow it is dealing with the effect our own sins on our own selves.
Jim, I have never said, nor have I ever heard men who preach the the doctrine of pure grace for our justification from the condemnation of God's law, say Romans 5:12-19 is dealing with our own sins on our own selves~that sir, is your take on what some believe, but it certainly is not what we have ever taught, nor have I read behind men like Richardson, Brine, Gill, Calvin, Edwards, Pink and many more I could name that taught what you are saying. They all with one accord more or less taught:

"Two Adams and Imputation – Similarities and Differences – Verses 12-19"......

Which we shall cover in our next few posts, the Lord willing. This is not veering off track too far from the truth of freely being justified by the obedience/faith of Jesus Christ~at least not from what I shall post. Afterall, there is one cohesive truth taught all through the scriptures concerning the atonement made by Jesus Christ that is knitted together from scriptures to scriptures, and all them will lead us the give all glory, praise to the Lamb of God, and not unto man! Revelation 4:9-11~"And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever, The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created."
It deals with the universal effect that the disobedience of Adam would had on all men had it not been for the universal effect that the obedience of Jesus did have on all men,
Jim, you wording is deceitful and a corruption of God's precious truths concerning the gospel of his Son. Jim is not.....
It deals with the universal effect that the disobedience of Adam would had on all men
Jim, the effect it did have, was devastating, and for many not only the first death, but will be the means of the second death for many!
In the first death includes both physical and spiritual death~the second death is eternal destruction, a perishing in the lake of fire, which is the second death per John. That's is what the first Adam brought upon his posterity.

In the first Adam God placed all of his posterity in him~Adam was the federal head of his posterity according to the infinite wisdom of God, and there's no wisdom greater than His, none ! In Adam we all stood, "without a sinful nature"~ created in the image of God~with knowledge, wisdom, understanding and true holiness, all we needed to be perfectly happy and contented, living in a perfect world just created from the hand of the Almighty God. What God did not do for Adam and his posterity is that he did not secured them from falling~he left them to themselves.

God imputed Adam's sin to ALL of his posterity, even over those who did not sinned after Adam's transgression, meaning infants...yes, to all of Adam's seed. Their disobedience in Adam was their own sin~since God was not under obligation to keep them from not sinning! He provided all they needed to NOT sin. You and others think you can obey God in your flesh which with a sinful nature which IS at enmity against God, which Adam did not have! You are drunk on yourself worth, which is nothing before God.

Jim, it not would have, it is what it did have!
effect that the obedience of Jesus did have on all men
Jesus' life of perfect obedience, only was provided for his members of his elect body, which was not for all men without exception as I later will prove.

Jim, you know the law of "Double Jeopardy"~the fifth Amendment~God's law are much more purer than man's! The clause provides that no person can be convicted "twice" of the same offense, if once acquitted, by justice being satisfied. Its basic concept is found in English common law.
If Jesus truly was a sin offering for every single person that ever lived, then God would NOT impute sin to that person if Jesus paid it all for them. IMPOSSIBLE. God does not believe in double jeopardy! Jesus was MADE SIN (or sin was imputed to him ) that we might be made the righteousness of God through HIM. When Jesus said~IT IS FINISHED~then I'm convinced it was indeed finished~he was sure to be raised from the dead since death had no claims upon him.
In other words that passage is not declaring Original Sin at birth upon mankind; rather it is declaring Original Grace at birth upon all mankind.

We will test this when we post again very soon~pretty sure you will be found WANTING in God's testimony of the truth.






 
Ariel, Red,

One more time. If you would but pay close attention to what Paul is saying in Romans 5, specifically verses 14-19, you would know that none of that is talking about the sins of anyone other than Adam. It is simply a discussion of the effects upon mankind of the disobedience of Adam and the effects upon mankind of the obedience of Jesus. It is a description of how we all come into this world. The results of Adam's disobedience is, or would have been, spiritual death even at birth. The results of Jesus' obedience set that all aside. There is no acceptable exegesis that would permit the assigning different meanings to the word many in the first part of the sentence in verse 15 and the word many in the last part of the sentence in verse 15.

For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.

None of Romans 5:14-19 is not dealing at all with the effects of our sinning. Paul already in Romans 3 established that with verse 23: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

So as I noted earlier. It is not Original Sin; rather, it is Original Grace.
 
Did you read the link in post #127 that @Rella gave? That will present that you are mistaken and support it with the scriptures. You can not read it have no interest in finding that out even if it is true. Or you can read it and dismiss is because it is not what you believe. Or you can read it and say well, that does make sense.
Yes, I did read it. I read that from John Piper some time ago. As always, he inserts his Calvinism into the discussion again and again.

Is everyone saved by Christ? No. Only those placed in Him through faith. They do not effect the same ones.
They do effect the same ones at the same time, in other words, at their conception or at birth, whichever you think is the beginning of life. I think it is at conception. It is not talking about the effect of our sins.
Are you a universalist? Are unbelievers saved? If unbelievers are not saved it is because they are not in Christ. Therefore the fall is universal, the redemption is not.
No, I am not aa universalist. No, unbelievers are not saved. That passage is not speaking about unbelievers.
Why did God not want them to eat of the tree of life? Because they sinned and all their posterity would be sinners. And sinners cannot be given eternal life as the sentence of sin is death.

The sentence of Adam's sin was Adam's death and not anyone else's! ! ! The sentence of your sin is your death and not anyone else's. That you think God would send you to hell because Adam disobeyed is simply horrendous. That is not the God of the Bible.
 
Did you read the link in post #127 that @Rella gave?
I read it, did you?

And if you read it, did you notice that he never addressed the point that Paul was making, namely, the difference between the effect of Adam's disobedience and the effect of Jesus' obedience. In both cases the effects are upon mankind's entry into the world.
 
Yes, I did read it. I read that from John Piper some time ago. As always, he inserts his Calvinism into the discussion again and again.
Out of curiosity: do you ever insert your anti Calvinism into the discussions? And for someone to counter whatever your say with that is nothing but anti-Calvinism, would you consider that to be a valid counter? Of course not! All it does is bring all cogent coverestion to an end; any delving into the scriptures to mine for the truth to a close; stops all hearing and learning and all opposition to your position. It could even be considered a form of saying "Shut up." It implies ignorance and stupidity in the other party, as though anything they put forth is not worth the time of day. And I suppose that is the reason it is so frequently done. What it personally implies to me when someone does that is they have run out of ways to actually scripturally refute what the other said, in this case, Piper, said.
They do effect the same ones at the same time, in other words, at their conception or at birth, whichever you think is the beginning of life. I think it is at conception.
If I understand you correctly that would mean everyone after the resurrection is born in Christ, not Adam.

It is not talking about the effect of our sins.
I don't believe that has ever been stated in this discussion. Paul is talking about the imputed sin of Adam in Romans 5 and the imputed righteousness of Christ to those who believe and are IN Christ through faith.
No, I am not aa universalist. No, unbelievers are not saved. That passage is not speaking about unbelievers.
You stated that the effect of the actions of both Adam and Christ were universal (affecting all people.) So I am referring to what you said.
The sentence of Adam's sin was Adam's death and not anyone else's! ! ! The sentence of your sin is your death and not anyone else's. That you think God would send you to hell because Adam disobeyed is simply horrendous. That is not the God of the Bible.
People who reject Christ go to hell because Adam as our federal head caused us to be creatures who do sin, and it was by God's decree and plan that the first man Adam would stand as the federal head of all humanity. Therefore we are sinners, not because we sin, though we do. But we sin because we are sinners. That is the type of creature we are. So I would be careful in say such as the God of the Bible would never do such a thing. It is the Bible that tells us He did. Rather I would fall on my knees before Him in gratitude that He also sent the second Adam, Jesus,the King of Righteousness to stand as the federal head of all who are placed in Him through faith. A new birth IN Christ.
 

Two Adams and Imputation – Similarities and Differences – Verses 12-19

Introduction:

Paul introduced here the legal guilt of all men in their first father Adam, condemning them a whole new way. Paul had taken the Jewish legalists back to Abraham to show justification without circumcision or Law. Romans 4

Now He will take all men, Jews and Gentiles, back to Adam and show them all guilty for his first sin.

Here in Romans 5:12-19 we have revealed truth regarding the cause and origin of death, which no man can discover or even begin to understand without God revealing this hidden mystery in the Bible to His children.

Many theological battles have been fought over the individual words of this text with harsh accusations and great doctrinal differences arising from the efforts of man to overthrow the full force of this verse.

Here is where we see the doctrine of original sin, not in man’s nature, but in his legal guilt and condemnation. This passage does not directly teach total depravity, but rather guilt and condemnation for Adam’s sin. The distinction between original sin and total depravity in both word and concept is very important here, for there are two different, important doctrines represented by these words, both of which must be taught. Total depravity is the ruin of man’s nature into a state of spiritual death (Gen 2:17; Ep 2:1-3; Rom 8:7-8). Original sin is legal guilt and condemnation of all men for indirect participation in Adam’s sin in Eden. Total depravity is man’s propensity, yea necessity, of sinning from birth to death by a rebellious nature. Original sin is God’s accounting where He has imputed or charged Adam’s guilt and punishment to all. If you choose to deny total depravity (of nature), you are already legally guilty for the original sin of Adam. If you choose to deny original sin (of Adam), you are yet totally depraved and will condemn yourself by sins.

Consider that consistent and extreme Arminians, like Campbellites (Church of Christ), must deny original sin. Jim, you are very closely associated with the CoC~at least in doctrine if not in name. They believe those with active consciences are saved by baptism, thus endangering all that die in infancy. Protestants save their infants from original sin by infant baptism, so Campbellites must deny original sin. They have said, “We are born sinless, pure, and spiritually alive,” denying original sin and total depravity.

Consider that Roman Catholics, accepting an idea of original sin, must invent infant baptism to save babies. By assuming baptism saves from original sin, they must not withhold the sacrament and risk infant lives. However, what happens to the poor infants of Catholic or other mothers that die without infant baptism? They comforted tearful mothers of infants dying without baptism by inventing Limbo Infantum for unbaptized babies (which led to Limbus Patrum, the decent place on the edge of hell for O.T. saints).

One of the gravest scenes is a cemetery with an erected tent, where another life, another body, another person, has ended all earthly ambitions and efforts and is consigned to total physical corruption. The scene proves God’s hatred for sin and the overwhelming ignorance of man, which cannot defer or modify death in any way.

Though we must soberly consider the doctrine of sin revealed here, we can remember our Savior with joy. He justified and made atonement for us, and much more than that will save from coming wrath (5:6-10) Furthermore, God also made atonement for us in Christ, putting us one with God as in Eden before (5:11). Where sin abounded and death reigned by Law, grace has abounded much more and life reigns (5:20-21).

There are things to keep in mind while studying this passage lest any confusion arise or any lessons be lost. Total depravity and original sin are quite different ~ vital versus legal condemnation –~though connected. The sovereignty of God over man is exalted about as much as it can be by imputation of Adam’s sin. You may ask and answer questions that evolutionists cannot honestly do ~ Where did death come from?
You may ask and answer questions that evolutionists cannot honestly do – Why has it not evolved away? You may ask and answer a question that should plague every thinking person – WHY DO BABIES DIE? The age of accountability (to protect infants or children) is moot, unless you want to debate Adam’s age. The origin of death and the unalterable sentence of it, regardless of evolution, reformation, medicine, etc. All alternative medicine or health thinking must eventually accept that sickness and death result from sin. Election predates Adam; men were chosen in Christ before him, though in light and consequence of him. The implications of believing original sin (infant baptism) or denying it (Campbellites and Mennonites?).

Grammatically, a reader may proceed from 5:12 to 5:18, where Paul took up after his parenthesis, for the therefore of 18 and the argument of both verses are drawing summary conclusions from 5:12-17.
 
If I understand you correctly that would mean everyone after the resurrection is born in Christ, not Adam.
No, I mean everyone born.

Zec 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD concerning Israel: Thus declares the LORD, who ...... formed the spirit of man within him:

God did not form a dead spirit of man within him. The spirit of man formed within him was alive and well. That spirit, became dead when that man sinned, just like Adam.
I don't believe that has ever been stated in this discussion. Paul is talking about the imputed sin of Adam in Romans 5 and the imputed righteousness of Christ to those who believe and are IN Christ through faith.
I does not say anything about the imputed righteousness of Christ to those who believe and are are IN Christ through faith. That is not in the discussion.
You stated that the effect of the actions of both Adam and Christ were universal (affecting all people.) So I am referring to what you said.
Universal to all people at birth. What happens after that is not the subject of the discussion there. That discussion is picked up in the next chapter.
People who reject Christ go to hell because Adam as our federal head caused us to be creatures who do sin,
Adam was not given any such power.
and it was by God's decree and plan that the first man Adam would stand as the federal head of all humanity. Therefore we are sinners, not because we sin, though we do. But we sin because we are sinners.
No! ! ! We are sinners because and only because we sin.

There is no discussion anywhere in the Bible about the federal head of this or that. Again, that is nothing more than a Calvinist construct.
That is the type of creature we are. So I would be careful in say such as the God of the Bible would never do such a thing.
Please believe me that I am very careful to say anything about God.
 
Original sin is legal guilt and condemnation of all men for indirect participation in Adam’s sin in Eden.
What a load of nonsense. No one has participated directly or indirectly in Adam's in. If you understood that you wouldn't have to make up all that other nonsense about Jesus not really being completely human as the rest of humanity is human.
 
Last edited:
You may ask and answer a question that should plague every thinking person – WHY DO BABIES DIE? The age of accountability (to protect infants or children) is moot, unless you want to debate Adam’s age.
That question should plague no one. Physical death has nothing whatsoever with sin. It might occur as a result of a particular sin or set of sins. But physical death was not instituted at or by Adam's sin. The death of every biological creation is inherent in that creation. Adam died physically because he no longer had access to the fruit of the tree of life. God kicked him out of the Garden and let nature take its course.
 
No, I mean everyone born.

Zec 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD concerning Israel: Thus declares the LORD, who ...... formed the spirit of man within him:

God did not form a dead spirit of man within him. The spirit of man formed within him was alive and well. That spirit, became dead when that man sinned, just like Adam.

I does not say anything about the imputed righteousness of Christ to those who believe and are are IN Christ through faith. That is not in the discussion.

Universal to all people at birth. What happens after that is not the subject of the discussion there. That discussion is picked up in the next chapter.

Adam was not given any such power.

No! ! ! We are sinners because and only because we sin.

There is no discussion anywhere in the Bible about the federal head of this or that. Again, that is nothing more than a Calvinist construct.

Please believe me that I am very careful to say anything about God.
I find it hard to imagine you are unfamiliar with the Bible verses that say humans are conceived in sin and even babies are evil and go astray quickly. Do you know those verses?
 
I find it hard to imagine you are unfamiliar with the Bible verses that say humans are conceived in sin and even babies are evil and go astray quickly. Do you know those verses?
Oh, I am quite familiar with the verse where David says that he was conceived in sin. Obviously the sin he is referring to is that of his parents not him. He had nothing whatsoever to do with his conception. I am also familiar with those other verses that you are referring to. If you would like to discuss them, we can and we could also discuss those verses where Christ speaks of becoming as little children in order to enter the kingdom.
 
No, I mean everyone born.
So everyone born is born in Christ---not Adam? That is in direct contradiction to the scriptures and frankly the good news of the gospel. 2 Cor 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. What is the old creation Paul is referring to? Why is it new if we are in Christ?
1 Cor 15:45-49 Thus it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven. There is a clear distinction there of being of Adam and being of Christ. Being in Adam and being in Christ. And we only become in Christ through faith in His person and work.
Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man (sin of Adam imputed to all men),and death through sin, (imputed sin) and so death spread to all men because all sinned---(original sin, the result of imputed sin.)

God did not form a dead spirit of man within him. The spirit of man formed within him was alive and well. That spirit, became dead when that man sinned, just like Adam.
Being spiritually dead does not mean that our spirit is dead. It means it is dead to spiritual things. Mankind (all of it) sins because they are spiritually dead. Through the imputed sin of Adam. What you don't seem to be able to understand and therefore deny is the federal headship of the first man. When Adam sinned that became the natural condition of all the first man's progeny. That is why Jesus is the second Adam. Jesus is the federal head of all who are in Him through faith, which breaks and destroys the power of the headship of Adam over us. By taking our place as one of us, a man, He defeated the power of sin and death over us. We still have our flesh of Adam (dust, of the earth) and we still can and do sin, but that too will change at the consummation as Paul tells us in the full chapter 5 of 1 Cor. It is worth a slow careful read.
I does not say anything about the imputed righteousness of Christ to those who believe and are are IN Christ through faith. That is not in the discussion.
It is very much a part of what Paul is saying in Romans 5.
Universal to all people at birth. What happens after that is not the subject of the discussion there.
It most certainly is. You can't have one without the other. And you are using "universal" in this discussion.
Adam was not given any such power.
Adam was declared out federal head by God.
No! ! ! We are sinners because and only because we sin.

There is no discussion anywhere in the Bible about the federal head of this or that. Again, that is nothing more than a Calvinist construct.
You have been shown repeatedly that the scriptures just as clearly show federal headship in both Adam and Christ as they show the Trinity. It is not a Calvinist construct anymore than the Trinity is a Catholic construct. It is what the Bible reveals to us. What God Himself reveals.
 
So everyone born is born in Christ---not Adam?
I didn't say that. I simply said that we are not born with the sin of Adam imputed to us. To be born in Christ is to be regenerated from our condition of being dead in our trespasses and sins in we once walked.

The meaning of regenerated is to be generated again to a condition we were once in. The meaning of born again is to a rebirth to a previous condition. That previous condition was a condition free from sin. If were were born dead as you believe, it wouldn't be a regeneration or a rebirth.

John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
John 5:25 "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.


Passed from death to life is regeneration. It is to the one who hears and believes. Not vice versa as you proclaim. Jesus says those who hear will live. He does not say those who live will hear.
 
Last edited:
It is not a Calvinist construct anymore than the Trinity is a Catholic construct. It is what the Bible reveals to us. What God Himself reveals.
Trinity is not a Catholic construct. At least I didn't think it was. It is just a way of identifying how God refers to Himself as the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Now how you personally think about that may be a construct either rightly or wrongly.
 
Trinity is not a Catholic construct. At least I didn't think it was. It is just a way of identifying how God refers to Himself as the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Now how you personally think about that may be a construct either rightly or wrongly.
I said it wasn't a Catholic construct. The Trinity is often denied by people saying that the Reformation didn't go far enough. It kept the Catholic doctrine of the Trinity. Or they will say that the Catholic doctrine of the Trinity (and they do have one) was borrowed from paganism.

You are using the same type of argument to deny federal headship, saying it is not in the Bible but is just a Calvinist construct.

What we see the Bible showing us in that regard doesn't have to be called a federal headship but what is shown concerning Adam and Christ, what is said about it in the scriptures fits the definition of federal headship. So rather than being a Calvinist construct it is expounding on the scriptures systematically, and not by Calvin alone, but according to all of traditional, orthodox Christianity.

Back in the day, the term federal was a common term and people know what it meant. Not so today. Sadly a vast number of Christians have never heard the term and have no idea what it means so they simply say, "That isn't in the Bible."


The doctrine of Federal Headship comes from the Latin word for covenant. A covenant is the Bible’s language to explain a relationship which binds people together. Each covenant has a head which explains why Jesus is the head of the Church, the husband is the head of the family, and Adam is the head of all humanity. Adam’s name means “mankind” and, as the covenant head of humanity, his sin implicated every human being.

Although Eve technically sinned first by partaking of the forbidden fruit, when God came to deal with our first parents who became the first sinners, he came looking for Adam first (Genesis 3:9). The head of a covenant is held firstly responsible for protecting and obeying the terms of the covenant. While everyone who sins against a covenant is held responsible, the head is held firstly responsible.

As our head, when Adam sinned, he implicated every one of us with him. In the same way, when a president or king makes a decision in government, a C.E.O. makes a decision in business, or a father makes a decision for a family, everyone under their headship is included in their decision for help or harm. Like gravity, federal headship exists whether we agree with or like it and affects us every moment of every day. The truth is, everyone is a sinner in four ways because sin is:


  1. Imputed in Adam
  2. Inherited in nature
  3. Imparted in conception
  4. Included in choice

I didn't say that. I simply said that we are not born with the sin of Adam imputed to us. To be born in Christ is to be regenerated from our condition of being dead in our trespasses and sins in we once walked.
 
Oh, I am quite familiar with the verse where David says that he was conceived in sin. Obviously the sin he is referring to is that of his parents not him. He had nothing whatsoever to do with his conception. I am also familiar with those other verses that you are referring to. If you would like to discuss them, we can and we could also discuss those verses where Christ speaks of becoming as little children in order to enter the kingdom.
I don't think it is obvious enough from Psalm 51:5 that the reference is to the parents of David. So I would have to take your interpretation with a pinch of salt there. As the Bible from Genesis to Revelation teaches that man is a sinner and only Jesus had no sin, which is the purpose of His life on earth, to take the sin debt away by his perfect life as a substitute for our sins. If David was conceived by sin it means sin was passed down to him not only physically but spiritually too, because the soul comes into existence at the moment the physical sperm enters the egg in a woman's womb.

The only way out of that scenario would be you believe in some form of your soul pre-existing your physical body in an actual state of present existence in some way or form. Do you have a belief in the soul pre-existing the body or anything like that?
 
I didn't say that. I simply said that we are not born with the sin of Adam imputed to us. To be born in Christ is to be regenerated from our condition of being dead in our trespasses and sins in we once walked.
We aren't born in Christ until we are regenerated (new birth) by the Holy Spirit. (John 3) Until then we are in Adam with his sin imputed to us (all humanity is the progeny of Adam therefore since he became a sinful creature all his offspring are sinful creatures.) In that new birth we are given the gift of faith in the person and work of Christ. We are iow made spiritually alive. We can now understand, believe, and it is our desire to, who Jesus is and what He did. And it is by grace through this faith that we are saved. Why? Because we have died with Him and been raised to life with Him. He is life. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of life---the life giver. We are no longer in Adam. We are in Christ. And we are kept there in the heavenlies until the consummation when this corruption puts on incorruption. Take a slow walk through 1 Cor 15.
The meaning of regenerated is to be generated again to a condition we were once in. The meaning of born again is to a rebirth to a previous condition.
No, it means regenerated from the condition we are in. That is what Jesus came to do. Adam was not born in Gen. He was made---out of the dust. Everyone else is born. Through God's established method of procreation Adam is our first father. And like begets like. Just as Levi was said to have paid tithes to Melchizedek because Abraham did and Levi was in the loins of Abraham. (Heb 7:8-9)
Passed from death to life is regeneration. It is to the one who hears and believes. Not vice versa as you proclaim. Jesus says those who hear will live. He does not say those who live will hear.
One does not believe (spiritually dead and cannot as even you acknowledge in your view) until they have been regenerated. Jesus says those who hear and believe will live, not just that they will live if they hear. Those who are made alive will hear and when they hear, they will believe.
 
We aren't born in Christ until we are regenerated (new birth) by the Holy Spirit. (John 3)
We were born pure and clean, we sinned and thus became dead in sin; we then need be reborn to be once again pure and clean.

Until then we are in Adam with his sin imputed to us (all humanity is the progeny of Adam therefore since he became a sinful creature all his offspring are sinful creatures.) In that new birth we are given the gift of faith in the person and work of Christ.
How can you believe that God would do that? The very idea that He would cause us to be unclean and separated from Him at the very start is abhorrent.

We are iow made spiritually alive.
We were made spiritually alive at birth when God formed our spirits in us. We sinned, we became spiritually dead and thus need to be spiritually reborn to be once again spiritually alive.
Take a slow walk through 1 Cor 15.
I have - too many times to count. It most has to do with what we shall be in the hereafter and is not about being reborn.
No, it means regenerated from the condition we are in. That is what Jesus came to do. Adam was not born in Gen. He was made---out of the dust.
That is the physical part of us. Our spirits are not made out of dust. God forms the spirit in us. Now I have do doubt the spirit is made also, but there is no indication whatsoever whether that spirit is made from something or created from nothing. Either way it has nothing to do with Adam.
Everyone else is born. Through God's established method of procreation Adam is our first father. And like begets like.
Yes, like begets like and Spirit begets spirit. Our spirit comes from Spirit - God is Spirit. I does not come from Adam or anyone else.
One does not believe (spiritually dead and cannot as even you acknowledge in your view) until they have been regenerated.
Of course the spiritually dead can believe. I have never said otherwise. It is those who believe who are regenerated. Being spiritually dead does not preclude any physical ability.

Jesus says those who hear and believe will live.
Yes, the "will live" means to come alive, to be reborn, to be regenerated. Jesus says those who hear and believe will be born again. Not vice-versa as you propose.
 
Back
Top