"It's All a Matter of Interpretation"

[Josheb]

How do you handle the comeback of "It's All a Matter of Interpretation"?

It's all a matter of correct interpretation.

Among believers, the rules of sound exegesis are well-established and long-held. Many do not know them. Among non-believers the complaint is a red herring intended solely as bait because if they can get you arguing about interpretations, they are not listening to you preach the gospel and listening to the Holy Spirit who alone can speak to the hole that needs filling. With believers, establish the exegetical precepts. With non-believers either listen to the HS for leading and help not taking the abundant varieties of bait, or walk away.

 

[CherubRam]

Please explain why.

Because Christ came speaking in parables and you should know those things.

 

[prism]

Because Christ came speaking in parables and you should know those things.

So in John 3:5, Jesus was speaking in a parable?

John 3:5 NASB
Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

 

[CherubRam]

So in John 3:5, Jesus was speaking in a parable?

John 3:5 NASB
Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Matthew 13:34
Jesus spoke all these things to the crowd in parables; he did not say anything to them without using a parable.

Mark 4:34
He did not say anything to them without using a parable. But when he was alone with his own disciples, he explained everything.



1 John 5:6
This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.

 

[Josheb]

In the end there can be only one correct interpretation...................

That's a good graphic but 1) it leaves out the principle of original understanding and 2) the graphic itself is an interpretation for how to interpret. The last question, "How does it (scripture) apply to us (the contemporary audience)?" CANNOT be correctly answered absent an understanding of what the original writer meant and what the original readers understood the text to mean in their time. The sentence I just wrote also has limits because what Jewish readers in the Old Testament understood is often not what God or the original writer meant. A lot of Judaism in Christianity happens because of that failure. A few examples of this would be the Jewish understanding of the priesthood, the temple, the monarchy, and even their understanding of the Messiah were all misguided in some substantive manner and the only way any of us would know that is by means of the newer revelation in which that which was previously veiled or hidden was revealed. The first century AD reader had a vastly superior understanding of the OT than the 5th century BC reader!

So there are very real limits and some potentially serious problems with the list in the lower left-hand corner on any occasion when the Old is emphasized over the New. What did the original writer mean? What did the first century writer mean and what did the first century reader understand because NOTHIN in contemporary understanding should ever contradict the New Testament meaning. Only then can sound application occur.




I'll provide another example. In Romans 12 we read the reference to heaping burning coals on someone's head of whom we'd just fed. Some teachers teach and some study Bibles say this is about shaming. I have one study Bible that states this is a reference to an Egyptian ritual of shaming.

No.

Such an "interpretation would be wholly inconsistent with everything Solomon was saying in Proverbs 25, everything Jesus was saying in his sermon on the mount, and everything Paul was writing in Romans 12. They weren't saying, "Be kind, be kind, be kind, be kind.... and then shame people"! In ancient times a person heated their home and cooked on fire and if their fire went out they had to borrow coals (from their neighbor or the municipal fire most towns kept burning), which would then be carried in heavy clay pots..... sometimes carried on one's heads when the arms became fatigued.

In this way you will rekindle their warmth and sustenance.

That is what the original Christian reader would have understood, not an appeal to a pagan ritual of shame. There are man idioms largely lost on modernity that are learned only through deeper study and the use of correct sources. The problem is every source is suspect. Some of you doubt what I just posted .





Even if I have the Proverbs 25:21, Matthew 5:43-44, and Romans 12:9-21 texts incorrect, the necessary importance of understanding the original meaning is correct. It greatly informs the veracity and efficacy of that table graphic.






Apply that to Posts 11, 14-17 (for example). What city would the first city Christian have understood as the city built on seven hills? Definitely NOT all those listed by TB2. nearly all of them can be excluded based on original meaning.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

It seems that it was the habit of the Pharisees and Sadducees to complicate the worship of the Lord God with man-made traditions: a problem that has not disappeared.

They're called "Denominations" with their "Precious defining doctrines".

 

[donadams]

No, Jn 3:5 is Eze 36:25-27, 37:1-4.

And Jn 3:6-8 is by sovereign act of the Holy Spirit only, and as unaccountable as the wind. . .sovereign, not linked to any cause, including water baptism, outside the Holy Spirit himself.

Water baptism symbolizes the washing of rebirth by the Holy Spirit, and as circumcision was the sign of cutting off of the sinful flesh in the Abrahamic covenant, so baptism is the sign of cutting off of the sinful flesh in the new covenant (Col 2:11-12), of dying to sin as Christ died for sin (Ro 6:1-4).

Then they are connected and you can’t have one without the other

 

[3 Resurrections]

Then they are connected and you can’t have one without the other

Tell that to John the Baptist himself (a child of God even in utero) and the thief on the cross; as well as every other saint since creation in the OT before Christ was crucified and resurrected in real time. None of these were water baptized , and we know without doubt that they were children of faith.

On the other hand, I don't buy the connection between circumcision and baptism. Circumcision was only for males - no females. So it doesn't automatically translate into the same as the baptism rite, which has no gender preference.

 

[Eleanor]

Then they are connected and you can’t have one without the other

Not according to Jn 3:6-8, where the washing of regeneration is by sovereign will of the Holy Spirit, governed by nothing outside himself, including the performance of baptism.

 

[donadams]

You have arrived at that erroneous conclusion by the misunderstanding of a single Greek word - "KAI".

Here is one of many similar translations. "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water AND (KAI) of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." In a casual reading of this, it would seem that water of some kind must be involved with entering the kingdom of God. But that idea does not align with all the other scriptures which remove any human work from the regeneration process, so that God and not man gets all the glory for this.

The problem with this mistaken view of John 3:5 arises from interpreting "KAI" incorrectly in this case. The word "kai" is not always required to mean "in addition to" something else. Many times it is used in an explanatory sense, meaning "namely" or "even". Such as in Ephesians 1:3, "Blessed be the God AND (KAI) Father of our Lord Jesus Christ..." This is not another God in addition to the Father. God IS the Father in this text. It would be "Blessed be God, (KAI) EVEN the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ".

With this understanding of how the little word "kai" can rightly be used, plug this into the John 3:5 verse and it would read, "...except a man be born of water (KAI) EVEN the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." This is a perfectly acceptable translation of this verse, which now does not contradict all the other texts about how our salvation is brought about. It now aligns with all the other scriptures which tell us that there is no voluntary activity of man that can achieve our regeneration.

Water is not in addition to the Spirit - water IS the Spirit, just as Jesus described it in John 7:38-39. "He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the SPIRIT, which they that believe on him should receive..."

If that was the only verse then you might be right
Please explain ez 36:25-27

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

“Baptismal regeneration” is the initiation into the new covenant!

Christian baptism is an outward sign of the inward action of grace, or merits of Christ’s passion blood and death applied to our souls!

We cannot see the inward action of grace purifying the soul, so God gave us the outward “sign” of water washing the body to indicate the inward action of grace and connected the two.

 

[donadams]

OF course when a Human is BORN AGAIN through CONVICTION OF SIN and repentence calling on God IN FAITH for salvation, then one thing that they should do is be baptised by immersion in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy SPirit.

"Baptism" doesn't "Regenerate", or SAVE anybody. it's what a new Christian does AFTER they've been Saved / Regenrated as a symbolic representation and testimony of what the Lord HAS DONE in their lives. It's not a "Sacrament". It's an "Ordinance".

It is a sacrament acts 2:38-39 “promise”! A promise from God is a sacred oath and check any dictionary an OATH IS A SACRAMENT!
(scripture never says it’s an ordinance)

1 oet 3:21 ….baptism doth also now save us…..

Ez 36:25 God speaking here!
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

Where does it say immersion is the only acceptable way?

 

[donadams]

Only according the Roman Catholic Doctrine. Baptism is what Born again Christians do AFTER they become Christians. Baptism HAS NOTHING TO DO with being Born again.

How can be born again of your own efforts Jn 3:5 you cannot enter!
2 pet 1:11 ministered unto you???

 

[Bob Carabbio]

It is a sacrament acts 2:38-39 “promise”! A promise from God is a sacred oath and check any dictionary an OATH IS A SACRAMENT!
(scripture never says it’s an ordinance)

I don't get MY theology from "Dictionaries

1 oet 3:21 ….baptism doth also now save us…..

And Eph 2:8,9 says that FAITH gifted by God saves us, and "Works" don't.

Where does it say immersion is the only acceptable way?

The word itself (to whelm or overwhelm). and NOTHING BIBLICALLY INDICATES that wetting the top of a baby accomplishes ANYTHING Spiritual at all. And, of course, your religious system teaches that a person NEVER HAS ASSURANCE of their salvation. Might have to gett Cooked for a while in you imaginary "Purgatory", unless somebody buys "Gregorian Masses" to get you OUTTA THERE!!

 

[donadams]

Jn 3:5 was a baptismal regeneration see verse 22
They went to the river!
“Water” and they preached “faith alone” or spirit alone no! They baptized with water!
Ez 36:25 fulfilled!

 

[CherubRam]

I don't get MY theology from "Dictionaries

And Eph 2:8,9 says that FAITH gifted by God saves us, and "Works" don't.

The word itself (to whelm or overwhelm). and NOTHING BIBLICALLY INDICATES that wetting the top of a baby accomplishes ANYTHING Spiritual at all. And, of course, your religious system teaches that a person NEVER HAS ASSURANCE of their salvation. Might have to gett Cooked for a while in you imaginary "Purgatory", unless somebody buys "Gregorian Masses" to get you OUTTA THERE!!

James 2:18
But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.
James 2:24
You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

 

[3 Resurrections]

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

This was God speaking in promise to the exiled members of Israel after their Babylonian deportations. God was going to "revive His work in the midst of the years" in the post-exilic return. A revival of the people who would reject their former idol worship took place during that post-exilic return, with God promising that His Spirit would remain among them as they rebuilt the temple and the city.

This was GOD promising to do this spiritual sprinkling of the people to give them a new heart. This was not a literal baptismal rite performed upon them by another man.

 

[donadams]

Tell that to John the Baptist himself (a child of God even in utero) and the thief on the cross; as well as every other saint since creation in the OT before Christ was crucified and resurrected in real time. None of these were water baptized , and we know without doubt that they were children of faith.

On the other hand, I don't buy the connection between circumcision and baptism. Circumcision was only for males - no females. So it doesn't automatically translate into the same as the baptism rite, which has no gender preference.

Faith and baptism are the new covenant requirements of initiation!

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Faith and baptism are the new covenant requirements of initiation!

That's not so. FAITH was just a necessary in the OLD Testament. "Baptism is what you do after you've been Born Again by FAITH.

 

[donadams]

Not according to Jn 3:6-8, where the washing of regeneration is by sovereign will of the Holy Spirit, governed by nothing outside himself, including the performance of baptism.

Then verse 22 is meaningless as well as any teaching or preaching?

 

[donadams]

I don't get MY theology from "Dictionaries

But we do get words!

And Eph 2:8,9 says that FAITH gifted by God saves us, and "Works" don't.

Then it’s not a work or you don’t understand how it is by grace even when works are involved

The word itself (to whelm or overwhelm). and NOTHING BIBLICALLY INDICATES that wetting the top of a baby accomplishes ANYTHING Spiritual at all. And, of course, your religious system teaches that a person NEVER HAS ASSURANCE of their salvation. Might have to gett Cooked for a while in you imaginary "Purgatory", unless somebody buys "Gregorian Masses" to get you OUTTA THERE!!

Cos we are not saved unless we abide in Christ Jn 15:1-5 until the end of our lives Mk 13:13 Matt 24:13
And most indulgences are obtained by prayer and devotion

Ez 36:25 God say’s water washed away sin
Acts 22:16 scripture say’s water washes away sin

Mk 16:16 Jesus says faith and baptism

Have you no faith, hope, and charity?

Faith alone” Questions

where does ez 36: 25:27 Say “faith alone”?

where does scripture says we have died with Christ by “faith alone”?

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

where does scripture say we are members of Christ and his church by “faith alone”?

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

where does scripture says we put on Christ by “faith alone”?

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Where does scripture say our sins are washed away by “faith alone”?

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

where does scripture say we are saved or justified by “faith alone”?

1 pet 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!

The only reference in scripture to “faith alone” is James 2:24 NOT BY “FAITH ALONE”?

2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

How can you enter by your own if it must be ministered to you? Baptism is done unto you, “not do it yourself by faith alone”

Jn 3:5 born again by faith alone?

Where is “Accept Christ as your personal lord & savior” is found in scripture?

They did not go preaching this line but went immediately to the river and baptized Jn 3:22

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Eph 4:5 one baptism

Why don’t it say one teeny tiny little act of “faith alone”???

When we first believed we are saved?

Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

How can salvation be nearer than when we first believed if you’re saved by believing?

1 pet 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Matt 24:13 endures to the end Shall be saved.

How can salvation happen when we first believed if it’s the end?

If salvation is by “faith alone” then faith would be the greatest!
1 cor 13:13 charity is the greatest!

Even all faith much less “faith alone” without charity avails nothing!
1 cor 13:2