"It's All a Matter of Interpretation"

[donadams]

SO what connection have you fooled yourself into believing exists between the "Apostolic CHURCH founded by Christ" and the "Roman Catholic religious system"??

There is only one Christ and he established one church

 

[prism]

No not one man, one church!

Define 'one Church'.

 

[donadams]

Define 'one Church'.

The Ark of Salvation!

The church is founded by Christ and the sacraments are instituted by Christ for the salvation of all men!

The church and Jesus are one: acts 9:4 Jn 15:1-5 eph 5:32

The church and the sacraments are necessary for and the means of salvation and the life of grace!

Redemption: Eph 2
Justification: Mk 16:16 Jn 3:5 Acts 2:38
Sanctification: Jn 1:16 Jn 10:10 Jn 15:5
Salvation: Matt 24:13 Rom 13:11

The body of Christ:
1 Corinthians 12:27

The one true church:
Matt 16:18 Jn 10:16

The household of faith:
Gal 6:10

The house of God:
1 Tim 3:15

The church of the living God:
1 Tim 3:15

The kingdom of God on earth:
Dan 2:44 Matt 6:33 Matt 16:18 Matt 12:28 Mk 1:15 Jn 3:3-5 Acts 8:12 1 Cor 4:20 Col 4:11 1 Thes 2:12 Rev 1:9 12:10

The new and eternal covenant:
The one fold of Christ:

The new covenant body of Christ church is an ark, the ark of Peter, the ark of Noah was a type, all those outside the ark died, and all those outside the church die spiritually, there is no life outside of Noah’s ark and there is no spiritual life or salvation outside of the church founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles!

1 Pet 3:20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark all died and outside the church there is no salvation!)

God breathed life into Adam, gen 2:7 and we received this life from our fathers!

Christ breathed on the apostles our spiritual fathers, we receive the new covenant life of God’s grace from them thru faith & baptism! Jn 20:21-23 Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38

 

[Bob Carabbio]

There is only one Christ and he established one church

ABSOLUTELY TRUE!!! There is ONLY ONE Church of Jesus Christ, that is the PILLAR and GROUND of the truth.

Unfortunately, Rome has deluded themselves into believing that they, AND ONLY THEY, are "that church".

But no matter how many time you repeat that Catholic LIE, it's NEVER going to be the truth.

And that goes for any other VISIBLE (physically present) church operation that CLAIMS to be the "One true Church" of Jesus Christ.

 

[prism]

The Ark of Salvation!

The church is founded by Christ and the sacraments are instituted by Christ for the salvation of all men!

The church and Jesus are one: acts 9:4 Jn 15:1-5 eph 5:32

The church and the sacraments are necessary for and the means of salvation and the life of grace!

Redemption: Eph 2
Justification: Mk 16:16 Jn 3:5 Acts 2:38
Sanctification: Jn 1:16 Jn 10:10 Jn 15:5
Salvation: Matt 24:13 Rom 13:11

The body of Christ:
1 Corinthians 12:27

The one true church:
Matt 16:18 Jn 10:16

The household of faith:
Gal 6:10

The house of God:
1 Tim 3:15

The church of the living God:
1 Tim 3:15

The kingdom of God on earth:
Dan 2:44 Matt 6:33 Matt 16:18 Matt 12:28 Mk 1:15 Jn 3:3-5 Acts 8:12 1 Cor 4:20 Col 4:11 1 Thes 2:12 Rev 1:9 12:10

The new and eternal covenant:
The one fold of Christ:

The new covenant body of Christ church is an ark, the ark of Peter, the ark of Noah was a type, all those outside the ark died, and all those outside the church die spiritually, there is no life outside of Noah’s ark and there is no spiritual life or salvation outside of the church founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles!

1 Pet 3:20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark all died and outside the church there is no salvation!)

God breathed life into Adam, gen 2:7 and we received this life from our fathers!

Christ breathed on the apostles our spiritual fathers, we receive the new covenant life of God’s grace from them thru faith & baptism! Jn 20:21-23 Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38

I take it that you are not Roman Catholic. Using Scripture s to prove your case is unbecoming of a Roman Catholic, although I don't completely agree with the way you use Scripture. For example, I was 'outside the Church' (wayy outside), when the Lord regenerated me.

 

[donadams]

ABSOLUTELY TRUE!!! There is ONLY ONE Church of Jesus Christ, that is the PILLAR and GROUND of the truth.

Unfortunately, Rome has deluded themselves into believing that they, AND ONLY THEY, are "that church".

But no matter how many time you repeat that Catholic LIE, it's NEVER going to be the truth.

And that goes for any other VISIBLE (physically present) church operation that CLAIMS to be the "One true Church" of Jesus Christ.

Christ and His church are one inseparable unity! Acts 9:4 Jn 15:5 acts 1:8 eph 5:24 eph 5:32

Only Christ has authority to establish the church! Matt 16:18-19
One church! Jn 10:16 All others are sects “full of errors” “the tradition of men”! The new covenant Church is the eternal city of God! Household of faith! The pillar and ground of TRUTH! 1 Tim 3:15 Founded by Christ alone! Matt 16:18 on Peter and the apostles! Eph 2:20

The church is of divine origin and cannot be corrupted or reformed by the tradition of men! Truth is immutable!

The church the only ark of salvation, the household of faith and is not spiritual to the exclusion of the physical or invisible to the exclusion of the visible but, visible, invisible, spiritual, physical, and supernatural of divine origin and therefore divine preservation! Matt 16:18-19 Jn 8:32 Jn 16:13 Jn 10:16

Visible and invisible
Spiritual and physical
And supernatural the means of grace and the ark of salvation!


A city set on a hill: Matt 5:14
Light of the world: Matt 5:14
Pillar of truth: 1 Tim 3:15
Teach and sanctify all men: Matt 28:19

Unity of faith!

Four Marks of the True Church founded by Jesus Christ on Peter, the apostles, and their successors!

One, holy, catholic (universal) and apostolic (succeeding from Christ, Peter and the apostles)

 

[donadams]

I take it that you are not Roman Catholic. Using Scripture s to prove your case is unbecoming of a Roman Catholic, although I don't completely agree with the way you use Scripture. For example, I was 'outside the Church' (wayy outside), when the Lord regenerated me.

Were you regenerated in a purely spiritual manner?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Christ and His church are one inseparable unity! Acts 9:4 Jn 15:5 acts 1:8 eph 5:24 eph 5:32

TRUE!! But that has nothing to do with the "Roman Catholic religious system"???

Only Christ has authority to establish the church! Matt 16:18-19

TRUE!! But that has nothing to do with the "Roman Catholic religious system"???

One church!

TRUE!! But that has nothing to do with the "Roman Catholic religious system"???

The church is of divine origin and cannot be corrupted or reformed by the tradition of men! Truth is immutable!

TRUE!! But that has nothing to do with the "Roman Catholic religious system"???

The church the only ark of salvation, the household of faith and is not spiritual to the exclusion of the physical or invisible to the exclusion of the visible but, visible, invisible, spiritual, physical, and supernatural of divine origin and therefore divine preservation! Matt 16:18-19 Jn 8:32 Jn 16:13 Jn 10:16

Visible and invisible
Spiritual and physical
And supernatural the means of grace and the ark of salvation!

TRUE!! But that has nothing to do with the "Roman Catholic religious system"???

A city set on a hill: Matt 5:14
Light of the world: Matt 5:14
Pillar of truth: 1 Tim 3:15
Teach and sanctify all men: Matt 28:19

TRUE!! But that has nothing to do with the "Roman Catholic religious system"???

Unity of faith!

TRUE!! But that has nothing to do with the "Roman Catholic religious system"??? Is the "Catholic Church "UNIFIED" in 2023??

Four Marks of the True Church founded by Jesus Christ on Peter, the apostles, and their successors!

One, holy, catholic (universal) and apostolic (succeeding from Christ, Peter and the apostles)

TRUE!! But that has nothing to do with the "Roman Catholic religious system"???

 

[Eleanor]

I take it that you are not Roman Catholic. Using Scripture s to prove your case is unbecoming of a Roman Catholic, although I don't completely agree with the way you use Scripture. For example, I was 'outside the Church' (wayy outside), when the Lord regenerated me.

We all were.

One has to be born again to be in the body of Christ, the church, his spouse in the two-in-one enfleshment of the marital union (Eph 5:30-32).

 

[prism]

Were you regenerated in a purely spiritual manner?

Yes and no. The Lord regenerated me (spiritual) intently staring at a crucifix (material).

 

[donadams]

Yes and no. The Lord regenerated me (spiritual) intently staring at a crucifix (material).

No water?

 

[prism]

No water?

That came about three months later.

 

[donadams]

That came about three months later.

Then that’s when you were regenerated

 

[prism]

Then that’s when you were regenerated

So water baptism regenerates?
I'm not sure what you are calling regeneration.

Before water baptism my eyes had already been opened to seeing the truth of God's Word, my heart panted hard after God, no longer cared for the drugs and witchcraft I was embroiled in, disavowed the atheism/secularism that had been shoved down my throat growing up (my dad was an atheist and we never attended Church), and now you are going to tell me I was regenerated at my water baptism?
Is Rome still cautioning against personal Bible reading? If not, here in a sense of what the new birth (regeneration) entails..

2 Corinthians 5:16-17 ESV
From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer. [17] Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.


Ephesians 2:1-5 ESV
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins [2] in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience- [3] among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. [4] But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, [5] even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ-by grace you have been saved-

 

[donadams]

So water baptism regenerates?
I'm not sure what you are calling regeneration.

Before water baptism my eyes had already been opened to seeing the truth of God's Word, my heart panted hard after God, no longer cared for the drugs and witchcraft I was embroiled in, disavowed the atheism/secularism that had been shoved down my throat growing up (my dad was an atheist and we never attended Church), and now you are going to tell me I was regenerated at my water baptism?
Is Rome still cautioning against personal Bible reading? If not, here in a sense of what the new birth (regeneration) entails..

2 Corinthians 5:16-17 ESV
From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer. [17] Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.


Ephesians 2:1-5 ESV
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins [2] in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience- [3] among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. [4] But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, [5] even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ-by grace you have been saved-

Sorry for your personal struggle

These are the first movements of Grace, God calling and drawing you to Himself
Conviction and sorrow for sin
A longing for God and His love
Initial grace
But regeneration happens with baptism

“Baptismal regeneration” is the initiation into the new covenant!

Christian baptism is an outward sign of the inward action of grace, or merits of Christ’s passion blood and death applied to our souls!

We cannot see the inward action of grace purifying the soul, so God gave us the outward “sign” of water washing the body to indicate the inward action of grace and connected the two.

 

[donadams]

The Christian sacrament* of baptismal regeneration is required for the new covenant and salvation!

*this promise acts 2:38-39 is a sacred oath from God ez 36:25-27 and a sacred oath is a sacrament!

Initiation!!!


Faith & Baptism is the initiation of the new and eternal covenant!

You cannot enter on you’re own or by “faith alone”!

You cannot receive Christ or grace by “faith alone”!

“Accept Christ as you’re personal lord and savior” is fundamentalist tradition not found scripture!

Jn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Baptismal regeneration a new creation in Christ! 2 Cor 5:17

A sacrament is an oath! A sacred promise from God! Ez 36:25-27
Acts 2:38-39 (this promise)

No baptism no grace!

A sacrament is an outward sign for all men including infants And a gift from God to help us see what he does inwardly and invisibly by his grace!

As grace Washes our souls in the merits of Jesus blood from original and personal sin, so the outward action of washing is visible!

without the outward action the inward action cannot take place!

Jn 3:5 Titus 3:5 water and washing
acts 22:16 wash away your sin!

Jn 3:5 Born again BY water and the spirit! Not by “faith alone”!

They did not go to Jerusalem and preach “accept Christ as you’re personal Lord and savior “

They went to the river (water) and they baptized! Jn 3:22

A covenant requires an outward sign of the inward action of grace!

Ez 36:25 I will sprinkle you with clean water and you shall be made white as snow.

Acts 22:16 washing away your sins.

Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

1 pet 3:21 baptism saves you.

You cannot enter on you’re own or by faith alone!

2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Heb 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,


Baptism!

God breathed life into Adam, gen 2:7 and we received this life from our fathers!

Christ breathed on the apostles our spiritual fathers, we receive the new covenant life of God’s grace from them thru faith & baptism! Jn 20:21-23 Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38 eph 2

Born again! Born from above!

'The Father has set his seal' on Christ (John 6:27) and also seals us in him (cf. 2 Corinthians 1:22; Ephesians 1:23, 4:30). Because this seal indicates the indelible effect of the anointing with the Holy Spirit in the sacrament of Baptism,

Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life." 87 The faithful Christian who I has "kept the seal" until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life "marked with the sign of faith," 88 with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God - the consummation of faith - and in the hope of resurrection.

St. Paul tells the faithful at Ephesus that they have been “sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.” This is in terms of an indelible character imprinted on the soul in the sacraments of baptism and confirmation. It is not as if this invisible mark is simply decorative. Rather, through it, we are enabled to participate in Christ’s mission and in his offices of priest, prophet, and king. Eph 1:13

Sealed by God eph 1:13 sealed by God (ez 36:25-27) in the ark of salvation by baptism just as Noah was sealed by God in the ark of the flood gen 7:16

1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark of Noah none were saved, outside the church (the ark of salvation) none are saved!)

Sealed in the ark, sealed in the church the ark of salvation by God thru baptism!


Christ instituted the holy church to teach and sanctify all men unto eternal salvation. (repent and believe the gospel) with the institution of the sacraments to convey grace to sanctify souls!
Matt 28:19






Effects of faith & baptism!

Ez 36:25-27 washed in baptism, with a new heart and the Spirit
Jn 3:5 born again in baptism
Mk 16:16 faith & baptist
Acts 2:38 repentance & baptism
Acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
Acts 22:16 baptism washes away sin
Rom 6:3 died with Christ
Col 2:12 risen with Christ
1 cor 12:13 baptized into the church
Gal 3:27 by baptism put on Christ
2 Tim 1:10 eph 2:1 and 5 brought to life
2 cor 5:17 new creation
Eph 1:13 eph 4:30 sealed by the Holy Spirit
Eph 4:5 one faith, one baptism
Eph 5:26 faith and baptism
Titus 3:5 baptismal regeneration
1 pet 1:2 washed in Christ’s blood
1 pet 2:9 the kingdom of light
1 pet 3:20-21 baptism saves us!

“Faith alone” accomplishes nothing!
1 cor 13:2 even all faith (alone) without charity avails NOTHING!!!

Faith and baptism!

Scripture says none of the things about “Faith alone”!

Only James 2:24 a man is justified by works and not by “faith alone”

2 Peter 1:11
For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

The Christian sacrament of baptism is the Initiation into the new covenant and must be ministered to you by the apostles!

 

[Eleanor]

Sorry for your personal struggle

These are the first movements of Grace, God calling and drawing you to Himself
Conviction and sorrow for sin
A longing for God and His love
Initial grace
But regeneration happens with baptism

Not according to Jn 3:3-8, where regeneration is a sovereign act of the Holy Spirit, based on nothing but his sovereign choice, which is as unaccountable as the wind. No act of man governs regeneration. It is a totally sovereign act of the Holy Spirit.

 

[donadams]

Not according to Jn 3:3-8, where regeneration is a sovereign act of the Holy Spirit, based on nothing but his sovereign choice, which is as unaccountable as the wind. No act of man governs regeneration. It is a totally sovereign act of the Holy Spirit.

Jn 3:5 is baptismal regeneration

 

[Eleanor]

Jn 3:5 is baptismal regeneration

No, Jn 3:5 is Eze 36:25-27, 37:1-4.

And Jn 3:6-8 is by sovereign act of the Holy Spirit only, and as unaccountable as the wind. . .sovereign, not linked to any cause, including water baptism, outside the Holy Spirit himself.

Water baptism symbolizes the washing of rebirth by the Holy Spirit, and as circumcision was the sign of cutting off of the sinful flesh in the Abrahamic covenant, so baptism is the sign of cutting off of the sinful flesh in the new covenant (Col 2:11-12), of dying to sin as Christ died for sin (Ro 6:1-4).

 

[3 Resurrections]

Jn 3:5 is baptismal regeneration

You have arrived at that erroneous conclusion by the misunderstanding of a single Greek word - "KAI".

Here is one of many similar translations. "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water AND (KAI) of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." In a casual reading of this, it would seem that water of some kind must be involved with entering the kingdom of God. But that idea does not align with all the other scriptures which remove any human work from the regeneration process, so that God and not man gets all the glory for this.

The problem with this mistaken view of John 3:5 arises from interpreting "KAI" incorrectly in this case. The word "kai" is not always required to mean "in addition to" something else. Many times it is used in an explanatory sense, meaning "namely" or "even". Such as in Ephesians 1:3, "Blessed be the God AND (KAI) Father of our Lord Jesus Christ..." This is not another God in addition to the Father. God IS the Father in this text. It would be "Blessed be God, (KAI) EVEN the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ".

With this understanding of how the little word "kai" can rightly be used, plug this into the John 3:5 verse and it would read, "...except a man be born of water (KAI) EVEN the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." This is a perfectly acceptable translation of this verse, which now does not contradict all the other texts about how our salvation is brought about. It now aligns with all the other scriptures which tell us that there is no voluntary activity of man that can achieve our regeneration.

Water is not in addition to the Spirit - water IS the Spirit, just as Jesus described it in John 7:38-39. "He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the SPIRIT, which they that believe on him should receive..."