Issues with a doctrine(s) of grace?

[Dave_Regenerated]

I don't know what that is or what that means. Can you explain please?

OH I see, because I don't have a picture but a D. I guess you missed the point I made then.

 

[Eleanor]

That’s your way of understanding .....which I have already explained to you...it’s not a big deal.

I don’t need to understand.

Being birthed in the Spirit is life and freedom from sin....an act that only God can perform.

Flesh gives birth to flesh.

Spirit gives birth to spirit.

My way of understanding God’s word .

He is presenting the spiritual death in which we are born and remain until the new birth
as a drowned person at the bottom of the lake.

It comes from the analogy of salvation as God throwing one a life preserver and
the rejection of that analogy because the unregenerate man is not a drowning man capable of grabbing onto a life preserver,
rather he is a totally (spiritually) drowned man at the bottom of the lake who has to be dragged out and life breathed into him.

 

[Eleanor]

OH I see, because I don't have a picture but a D. I guess you missed the point I made then.

So what's hiding behind the big D?

Or do you exempt yourself from hiding behind your avatar as you accuse others of doing?

 

[fastfredy0]

I actually thought that was a avatar of @fastfredy0 ....

@Eleanor said:

Thing about it is that it's hard not to think of them looking that way.

NO ... this is me:

 

[fastfredy0]

Sounds like
positional = justification,
progressive = sanctification,
ultimate = glorification.

Pretty much

 

[Arial]

I don't know what that is or what that means. Can you explain please?

It has something to do with your criticism of Fast's avatar. That is your clue, and no more needs to be said about it.

 

[Arial]

@Eleanor said:


NO ... this is me:
View attachment 395

And this is me. I'm the one on the right.

 

[Arial]

Why would I be a legalistic Christian according to you?

I have no earthly idea. Secular comedy is for secular people, not Christians. It really beats me why you would indulge it if you are claiming to be born again.

 

[GeneZ]

Personally I have the most issues with both limited Atonement and Total Depravity.

Without realizing it...

Limited atonement makes God into a terrible self righteous snob...

For it tells us...

"Only you are good enough to have your sins paid for!" ​

(there goes total depravity of all men out the window!)​

It also makes our sins the issue in salvation, not belief in Christ.


At the final judgment of all unbelievers no unbeliever's sins will be mentioned, nor judged by the Lord. Not one!
For they were already judged on the Cross!

What will be the reason for those going to the Lake of Fire?

I also saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. ​

Another book was opened, which is the book of life, and the dead were judged according to ​

their works by what was written in the books." Rev 20:12​

Not their sins! But, their works! Why?

For there will be one work looked for..
Looked for and not found!

Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works (plural) God requires?”​

​

Jesus answered, “The work (singular) of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.” John 6:28-29​

grace and peace .......................

 

[GeneZ]

I have 3 Sons...none are Born Again....I pray they become Born Again....if it’s not the will of God, then there isn’t much I can do about it is there?

Apart from praying.......God is the one who chooses his children. we don’t....I don’t believe we have any say in the matter..putting it ver simply.

I NEVER chose God to birth me in the Spirit.....he uses me though, for his purposes and he certainly uses me to spread the word and Glorify His Name and his Name only......

What we can pray for is that they get to hear a clear delineation of the Gospel.

Or... read one.

Its the Holy Spirit that drives the message home.

The ones the Father chooses to give to the Son, are those who pass over the finish line during the time God was drawing them.

Not all are willing to continue in being drawn...

...........

 

[GeneZ]

Draw in what way? Salvation? Judgement?

I'm sure you understand the word "drawing" often has a meaning of being "dragged".

Taking one possible meaning and eliminating all the rest, becomes a drag.

​

The Lord appeared to him from afar, saying,​

“I have loved you with an everlasting love;​

Therefore I have drawn you with lovingkindness." Jer 31:3​

"Dragged" is simply what some wish to believe. They most likely had a strong antagonism before believing.

....... grace and peace

 

[Eleanor]

View attachment 397And this is me. I'm the one on the right.

YES!

(The one on the left ain't shabby either.)

 

[Eleanor]

duplicate

 

[GeneZ]

duplicate

 

[ReverendRV]

Is there any of the doctrines of grace (TULIP) that you did at one time, or maybe still do have issues with?
One you just can’t settle with or wish there was a way around it.
Have you tried and tested it in hopes to prove it wrong?
This question(s) is mainly for Calvinists but of course Arminians are welcome to answer and discuss as well.

I never had an issue with a Doctrine of Grace. If a Doctrine is Biblical, you just can't wish it were any different...

 

[GeneZ]

I never had an issue with a Doctrine of Grace. If a Doctrine is Biblical, you just can't wish it were any different...

The only thing that should change your mind is knowledge you did not know you were lacking.....

 

[ReverendRV]

Hey @civic ...I liked reading your post...if I have any questions, can I ask you?

If I don’t understand, I will also ask what it means...hope that’s ok, I have much to learn...

Originally Posted by @Civic

If man is totally depraved, cannot seek God, cannot think a right though about God, cannot know truth as the "T" in tulip infers, then why did God have to say 3 times He had to give these unbelieving reprobates over ?

The answer is, the reason God gives Totally Depraved Reprobates over to themselves; is because of the power of the Gospel, not because of any power in the Man...

 

[prism]

Personally I have the most issues with both limited Atonement and Total Depravity.
I have spent literally 7 years trying to get around or even prove Limited Atonement non biblical. As of late, I have added Total Depravity to the list.

I also believe the five are in perfect harmony with each other. If you remove just one of the 5 points, the whole system collapses.

I think also, it is so much easier to accept the Arminian 5 points. After all, their belief of total depravity (different than Calvinism) can be conformed to agree with unlimited (universal) atonement. Since it is an inconsistent system with scripture it makes it much easier to accept (humanly speaking) the doctrines since they are not in harmony with scripture.

Seems to me the Arminian constantly appeals to sentiment and human emotion. Calvinists rely more on hard logic and a systematic approach to theology. All in all, limited (particular) atonement is a hard pill to swallow but free will / decision theology is even harder.

 

[Carbon]

Seems to me the Arminian constantly appeals to sentiment and human emotion. Calvinists rely more on hard logic and a systematic approach to theology. All in all, limited (particular) atonement is a hard pill to swallow but free will / decision theology is even harder.

I agree.

 

[fastfredy0]

All in all, limited (particular) atonement is a hard pill to swallow but free will / decision theology is even harder.

I think 'free will / decision theology' is easier to swallow (not that I believe it). The default for mankind is to think they are independent of God even if they are Christians. It's not like you can prove with empirical evidence that God exists let alone prove God is the First Cause.
Takes a lot of study of the bible and/or teachers for one to have a chance to sort it out. This assumes one sorted it out. God loves everyone is appealing.... and God has to give everyone a chance to be fair is appealing.