Issues with a doctrine(s) of grace?

[Arial]

Keeping in mind that the spiritually dead, blind, deaf and lame do not see (hear, know or do) anything spiritual until they are spiritually reborn (Jn 3:3-8).

I always keep that in mind.

 

[Eleanor]

It is what Jesus said. Luke 18:14
14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

I am pointing out how easy it is to misunderstand a parable even as Christians, which is one reason He spoke in parables. (As opposed to @civics statement that it showed we do have the natural ability to choose Christ). Parables make us look deeply. The topic of the parable was self righteousness. The Pharisees would never have answered the question, "The tax collector was justified before God, not the self righteous Pharisee."

We often have a little Pharisee in us that we do not recognize because we do not fully understand what Jesus is getting at. How often do we judge another Christian or a non Christian, for doing something that we don't do, thinking better of ourselves than we ought?

You are misreading, I said as the illustration of the tax collector shows.
Not that the tax collector was hardened.

Thanks!

 

[Eleanor]

I always keep that in mind.

Did I misunderstand your statement that "when our ears are opened to hear the voice of the Shepherd. It leads to the new birth"
to mean something spiritual precedes the new birth and is the cause of it?

 

[Eleanor]

duplicate

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

I can only assume that those who believe their own power of faith is what saved them (and God somehow cooperated with it) just aren't very big Bible readers or they are immature in the faith.

Having said that, I would like to know what resisting the Holy Spirit is. Again, I assume that means people who consciously reject God.

Why some erect no resistance to God's saving work and others do is not something I can explain. Unless those that resist were somehow predestined by God to be reprobate yet God attempted to save them?

 

[Arial]

Did I misunderstand your statement that "when our ears are opened to hear the voice of the Shepherd. It leads to the new birth"
to mean something spiritual precedes the new birth and is the cause of it?

Yes you misunderstood. Our ears being opened is the new birth. The leading---for the elect---is God sovereignly leading us to that place all of our life, through thick and thin, even our sins and lifestyle previous to the new birth, a part of the leading, though that does not mean He makes us sin or is pleased with our sin. It simply means that He uses even that towards our good. He allows us to go places and I am quite certain there are places He does not allow us to go---certainly He preserves our life.

I kind of relate it this way. Adam and Eve knew only an intimate relationship with God before they sinned. And everything was perfect. You might say, they took it for granted. As a result of the fall we now experience suffering, pain, sorrow, death etc. along with the good things we experience.

How much more will we willingly worship and adore and obey our God in the restored creation, having walked through this valley of the shadow of death?

Luke 7:47 Therefore I tell you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven---for she loved much. But he who is forgiven little, loves little."

 

[Eleanor]

I can only assume that those who believe their own power of faith is what saved them (and God somehow cooperated with it) just aren't very big Bible readers or they are immature in the faith.

Having said that, I would like to know what resisting the Holy Spirit is. Again, I assume that means people who consciously reject God.

Well, we know it does not refer to the new birth, for we have no say in the matter, just as we do not in physical birth.
So would it not refer to the Christian life wherein one doesn't want to submit in a particular matter?

Why some erect no resistance to God's saving work and others do is not something I can explain. Unless those that resist were somehow predestined by God to be reprobate yet God attempted to save them?

 

[Ritajanice]

Yes you misunderstood. Our ears being opened is the new birth.

May I ask, only our ears being opened is the new birth ?

I would say our heart was opened to receive the Holy Spirit by God and then the ears can hear and the eyes can see..I don’t understand just the ears being opened...just my opinion and thoughts.

After being birthed...I could see God’s Kingdom through his Spirit that indwelled me, like never before...now I seem to take it for granted.

Edit to add, when I say Kingdom...I meant God’s creation, you know, the trees, the clouds, the birds..etc.

 

[Arial]

May I ask, only our ears being opened is the new birth ?

I would say our heart was opened to receive the Holy Spirit by God and then the ears can hear and the eyes can see..I don’t understand just the ears being opened...just my opinion and thoughts.

After being birthed...I could see God’s Kingdom through his Spirit that indwelled me, like never before...now I seem to take it for granted.

In my post I was referring to the scripture "My sheep hear my voice and follow me." The Bible says the unregenerate have deaf ears. I said our "ears being opened" as it was in line with the rest of what I was saying. I was not giving it as the only change that occurs in us when we are reborn.

 

[Ritajanice]

In my post I was referring to the scripture "My sheep hear my voice and follow me." The Bible says the unregenerate have deaf ears. I said our "ears being opened" as it was in line with the rest of what I was saying. I was not giving it as the only change that occurs in us when we are reborn.

Ok, thanks for explaining...

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

Well, we know it does not refer to the new birth, for we have no say in the matter, just as we do not in physical birth.
So would it not refer to the Christian life wherein one doesn't want to submit in a particular matter?

No. Stephen told the Pharisees and others that stoned him to death that they always resist the Holy Spirit.

 

[Eleanor]

No. Stephen told the Pharisees and others that stoned him to death that they always resist the Holy Spirit.

They were Jews, the people of God who, in fact, did always resist the Holy Spirit.

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

They were Jews, the people of God who, in fact, did always resist the Holy Spirit.

Which just begs the question of the debate. People can resist the Holy Spirit. What does that mean?

 

[fastfredy0]

Resist: To take action in opposition to; try to eliminate, reduce, or stop: synonym: oppose.

We all resist the Holy Spirit to some degree (we all sin). The Spirit determines the degree to which God can be resisted.

 

[Ritajanice]

Which just begs the question of the debate. People can resist the Holy Spirit. What does that mean?

I don’t think resisting the Holy Spirit means the same thing as resisting God’s will do you?

God’s will can never be thwarted can it?

As God says...his will be done!

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

Resist: To take action in opposition to; try to eliminate, reduce, or stop: synonym: oppose.

We all resist the Holy Spirit to some degree (we all sin). The Spirit determines the degree to which God can be resisted.

"we" resist. God determines it.

Seems like a contradiction.

 

[Ritajanice]

We all resist the Holy Spirit to some degree (we all sin). The Spirit determines the degree to which God can be resisted.

We still sin, as a Born Again, but, who can resist the will of God?

No one can..imo/ belief.....

Romans 9:19 Context​

16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

I don’t think resisting the Holy Spirit means the same thing as resisting God’s will do you?

God’s will can never be thwarted can it?

As God says...his will be done!

The Holy Spirit is God. If you can resist the Holy Spirit you can resist God. His will is perhaps a different matter. You would have to ask a theologian the difference between God's will and how he allows some things and not others and see if a distinction can be made.

 

[Ritajanice]

The Holy Spirit is God. If you can resist the Holy Spirit you can resist God. His will is perhaps a different matter. You would have to ask a theologian the difference between God's will and how he allows some things and not others and see if a distinction can be made.

Yes, the Holy Spirit is God....but, he’s not God in his full powerful glory is he?

That’s why he sent the Holy Spirit to save us from eternal damnation....he couldn’t come down as he is could he?

God is all consuming, we couldn’t see him as he is ..it would kill us to see him in his full glory?

 

[fastfredy0]

"we" resist. God determines it.

Seems like a contradiction.

I didn't quite put it that way.
I said we resist and God determines how much He allows us to resist.

Example:
Non Christian doesn't believe in God. (resistance)
God does nothing about non-christian for 20 years
Non Christian hears salvific gospel but does not respond positively (resistance). (God has not regenerated him; God allows resistance to continue)
At age 30 God says, "Enough is enough. The non-christian is regenerated and has saving faith (his resistance in this area no longer tolerated by God).

Guy is sanctified, but resists (he continues in some sin). God through time removes various resistances (desires to sin).

Guy dies. He is glorified by God and God removes all resistance such that the guy no longer sins.