Issues with a doctrine(s) of grace?

[David1701]

I was on another forum, where most were freewillers as well....they accused me of not being Born Again and that it was all in my emotions.......the battle went on for weeks....oh boy did they try and get me to change my testimony on how I was birthed in the Spirit.....I guess it was all down to how strongly they believed in freewill.

Personally I can’t get my head around this free will business...probably never will, because of the way I became Born Again...by God’s supernatural power, through the Holy Spirit.

The thing that got me, before I knew enough of the Bible to disprove "free will" was that I could never pray as if free will were true - I just couldn't.

 

[Carbon]

The thing that got me, before I knew enough of the Bible to disprove "free will" was that I could never pray as if free will were true - I just couldn't.

No free willer can.

 

[Arial]

If man is totally depraved, cannot seek God, cannot think a right though about God, cannot know truth as the "T" in tulip infers, then why did God have to say 3 times He had to give these unbelieving reprobates over ?

Totally depraved does not mean that man cannot think a right thought about God or that he cannot know any truth which the T does not infer. You infer that. So your starting premise is false. But we will continue. We have a complete inability to be perfectly righteous, and almost good enough or partly good enough won't suffice.

Also is man is so utterly depraved , dead ( corpse like ) , deaf, blind state etc...... then why would Jesus have to hide the truth from the dead, deaf, blind with parables ? That would be unnecessary since they cannot possibly understand anything id they were dead like a corpse.

Also how can these reprobates suppress the truth since they are dead and incapable of knowing the truth ?

Jesus says why He used parables and then He explained the parable of the sower to His disciples who had asked the question. Parables probe inside us to see if we really understand the gospel.

Let's take the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector in Luke 18:9-14 for example. When Jesus asked which man went down justified. We would say the one who asked for mercy recognizing his sinfulness. That is because even many of us do not really grasp the parable---for we don't see the attitude of the Pharisee deep within ourselves. Nobody listening to the parable when Jesus told it would have thought it was the tax collector who went away justified. Also they are a means of further hardening an already hard heart as the illustration of the tax collector shows.

As to being dead, that of course does not pertain to a present physical death. It is the bondage to sin that sentences us to death and we are dead in the sense that, since we are held in those chains of sin, by virtue of sin itself, we cannot free ourselves. Otherwise why did Jesus die?

Romans 1

Brief explanation to put Romans into its full context before we begin to look at the passages from chapter 1 used as they are by you.
Paul's greeting and personal introduction, (1:1-15)
Theme:the righteousness of God for Jew and Gentile (1:16,17)
Mankind's universal sinfulness (1:18-3:26)
God's righteousness for justification (3:21-5:21)
Grace reigns through righteousness (Chs 6-8)
God demonstrates His righteousness in Jew and Gentile(Chs 9-11)
God's righteousness grasped and expressed in people's lives (12:1-15:13)
Paul's plans and concluding greetings (15:14-16:27)

who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

Look at what this says about atheists for example. We can look at creation itself and know that God exists. We both His love and His mercy in creation and also His Kingship which includes judgment of unrighteousness. The atheist only kids himself that he does not know of God's existence or that he has no evidence of it. What this knowledge does not give us is saving mercy. That is found only in scripture. And don't forget that we have a conscience to know good from bad, we have that knowledge, and that is what we suppress. We do as we please when it pleases us.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

See above.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.

"Gave them over" simply means He removed some restraints and let the store up His wrath while He went about the business of redemption.

 

[Carbon]

Totally depraved does not mean that man cannot think a right thought about God or that he cannot know any truth which the T does not infer. You infer that. So your starting premise is false. But we will continue. We have a complete inability to be perfectly righteous, and almost good enough or partly good enough won't suffice.

Jesus says why He used parables and then He explained the parable of the sower to His disciples who had asked the question. Parables probe inside us to see if we really understand the gospel.

Let's take the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector in Luke 18:9-14 for example. When Jesus asked which man went down justified. We would say the one who asked for mercy recognizing his sinfulness. That is because even many of us do not really grasp the parable---for we don't see the attitude of the Pharisee deep within ourselves. Nobody listening to the parable when Jesus told it would have thought it was the tax collector who went away justified. Also they are a means of further hardening an already hard heart as the illustration of the tax collector shows.

As to being dead, that of course does not pertain to a present physical death. It is the bondage to sin that sentences us to death and we are dead in the sense that, since we are held in those chains of sin, by virtue of sin itself, we cannot free ourselves. Otherwise why did Jesus die?

Brief explanation to put Romans into its full context before we begin to look at the passages from chapter 1 used as they are by you.
Paul's greeting and personal introduction, (1:1-15)
Theme:the righteousness of God for Jew and Gentile (1:16,17)
Mankind's universal sinfulness (1:18-3:26)
God's righteousness for justification (3:21-5:21)
Grace reigns through righteousness (Chs 6-8)
God demonstrates His righteousness in Jew and Gentile(Chs 9-11)
God's righteousness grasped and expressed in people's lives (12:1-15:13)
Paul's plans and concluding greetings (15:14-16:27)

Look at what this says about atheists for example. We can look at creation itself and know that God exists. We both His love and His mercy in creation and also His Kingship which includes judgment of unrighteousness. The atheist only kids himself that he does not know of God's existence or that he has no evidence of it. What this knowledge does not give us is saving mercy. That is found only in scripture. And don't forget that we have a conscience to know good from bad, we have that knowledge, and that is what we suppress. We do as we please when it pleases us.

See above.

"Gave them over" simply means He removed some restraints and let the store up His wrath while He went about the business of redemption.

Amen sister!

@civic

One big issue with synergists is they forget about context. Civic is pretty smart (in my opinion) so he must have forgot. I think if he hangs around here to much he will become a monergist

That they cannot see, hear or understand the truth is why Jesus spoke in parables to them. It does not teach that the parables makes it so they cannot understand.

So even what the unbeliever has (context) will be taken away. But if they had eyes to see and ears to hear they would believe and healed. Jesus spoke to them in parables because they do not understand. It’s quite clear

And those who have, eyes to see, ears to hear more will be given, they will be give the secrets of heaven.

Its prophecy fulfilled.

 

[CrowCross]

Well----if a believer is elect of God they will hear and believe the gospel. And sometimes children listen to other people more than they are willing to listen to their parents. As a father, you do what father's do. You teach them in the ways of the Lord. Bring them to under the headship of Christ. That is our part----responsibility.

Knowing that will not always alleviate our feelings of blame. But that is just what people do when they grieve.

There are many from model christian families who never believe in Jesus...while on the other hand there are many from broken dysfunctional families that do.

 

[Carbon]

There are many from model christian families who never believe in Jesus...while on the other hand there are many from broken dysfunctional families that do.

Unconditional Election

 

[Ritajanice]

There are many from model christian families who never believe in Jesus...while on the other hand there are many from broken dysfunctional families that do.

Amen!!

 

[David1701]

No free willer can.

I wouldn't be so sure - I've heard some.

 

[Carbon]

I wouldn't be so sure - I've heard some.

Really? Must be pretty arrogant. Probably heretical

 

[Arial]

There are many from model christian families who never believe in Jesus...while on the other hand there are many from broken dysfunctional families that do.

This is true.

 

[David1701]

Really? Must be pretty arrogant. Probably heretical

Yes. I've heard more than one say that our "free will" is the greatest gift that God has given humanity!

 

[David1701]

Amen sister!

@civic

One big issue with synergists is they forget about context. Civic is pretty smart (in my opinion) so he must have forgot. I think if he hangs around here to much he will become a monergist

That they cannot see, hear or understand the truth is why Jesus spoke in parables to them. It does not teach that the parables makes it so they cannot understand.

So even what the unbeliever has (context) will be taken away. But if they had eyes to see and ears to hear they would believe and healed. Jesus spoke to them in parables because they do not understand. It’s quite clear

And those who have, eyes to see, ears to hear more will be given, they will be give the secrets of heaven.

Its prophecy fulfilled.

Civic used to be a monergist...

 

[Carbon]

Also how can these reprobates suppress the truth since they are dead and incapable of knowing the truth ?

Where does scripture teach this? Roman’s says they know the truth. He is revealed in His creation. And Roman’s 1 said they know Him.

Totally Depraved would imply that one is never able to do what is right and lawful; scripture states that man naturally can keep the law.

Do you actually understand Total Depravity?

 

[Carbon]

Civic used to be a monergist...

That’s debatable

So far he hasn’t explained TD very well. Let’s see if he re-defines it.

 

[civic]

Civic used to be a monergist...

Yes I was brother. We used to tag team the synergists and provisionists all of the time back in the day.

 

[QVQ]

Why on earth would anyone believe that God drawing us to Jesus...to some means dragging...seriously, I can’t get my head around that one.

I was Drawn" to read the Bible by curiosity.
Is curiosity a form of irresistible grace?

Many Christians talk about the heavy weight of sin dragging them down. Drug addiction is one example. Many state they were dead on the bottom of the lake, drowned in sin until, "amazing grace found a wretch like me."

When man is dragged by the very weight of his sin to God, is that an irresistible grace?

 

[Eleanor]

Ok I will take a swing at it
If man is totally depraved, cannot seek God, cannot think a right though about God, cannot know truth as the "T" in tulip infers, then why did God have to say 3 times He had to give these unbelieving reprobates over ?
Also is man is so utterly depraved , dead ( corpse like ) , deaf, blind state etc...... then why would Jesus have to hide the truth from the dead, deaf, blind with parables ? That would be unnecessary since they cannot possibly understand anything id they were dead like a corpse.

You are confusing the state of man apart from God in the world, with the state of God's people who were called out of the world.

The parables were hidden from his enemies the Pharisees, who had good working knowledge of Scripture, and were seeking a reason to kill him.

Also how can these reprobates suppress the truth since they are dead and incapable of knowing the truth ?

You are confusing the state of man apart from God with God's called-out people.

Romans 1

Romans 1 deals with mankind apart from God, pre-Abraham.

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.
28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.

Several reasons why I think the doctrine of TD is not true

1-they suppressed the truth- one has to know the truth to suppress the truth

No, one thinks what they are suppressing is falsehood.

2-they knew God, He was self evident to them

Creation was then, and is now, irrefutable testimony of a God. And if there is God, his own conscience tells him God is to be glorified and thanked.

3-God was understood to them

His divine nature and eternal power are clearly seen in creation.

4-they exchanged the truth

They exchanged the truth they knew of the existence of God for idols made in the image of man, birds, animals and reptiles.

5-they did not retain the knowledge of God, it was not worthwhile for them

And in judgment, God gave them over to a depraved mind, the emptiness of which left a vacuum which sucked in darkness.

6- Therefor from all the above facts God declares 3 times that He gave them over

Because of their idolatry (spiritual whoredom), he gave them over to
sexual immorality, exchanging the truth of God for a lie,
homosexuality, shameful lusts, exchanging natural relations for unnatural ones,
depraved minds, filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity,
not only doing these things themselves, but also approving of others who practiced them.

7- God doesn't need to give anyone over who is already completely unable, enable, completely and totally depraved with no ability's to do otherwise

God punished sin with more sin, which is consistent throughout the OT.

8- parables would not be necessary if TD were true and men are in corpse like state by birth.

The Gentiles of Ro 1 were in corpse like state by birth, the Pharisees were the people of God hundreds of years later.

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Totally Depraved would imply that one is never able to do what is right and lawful; scripture states that man naturally can keep the law.

Scriptures states that conscience knows the law, not that it can keep the law to God's specifications.

 

[Eleanor]

I didn't so much have trouble with any of it as I needed to find out what each "letter" meant, see it put into perspective with the scriptures. It is all quite shocking at first because it is so alien from what is being taught mostly.
What I had the most trouble with is how man's responsibility fit into the picture.

Man's responsibility is not based on his ability, but on what he justly and rightly owes God, which is submission and obedience, which he is liable to pay, or face the Court.

The acronym itself is misleading to the point of automatic misunderstanding. It causes people to pull back instantly and never look into it.

What acronym?

The learning however never stops.

 

[Eleanor]

I understand some of these doctrines can be difficult, God’s ways are not our ways and these are solid food and can cause many to choke but we do have a sovereigns God.

As I said the most difficult to me are T & L. Mainly because I have 6 daughters.
Those who have a good understanding of the doctrines could probably see why.

I just can’t settle and get peace on these.

Limited atonement is simply election.
Is that hard for you also?

Total depravity is simply spiritual death--unable to see, hear, act apart from the rebirth by the Holy Spirit.

It will be easier, hopefully, when they are fully grown.

What we don't see now is: what they are when fully grown is closer to the truth.

 

[Eleanor]

May I ask, what has @Carbon not presenting the message of salvation to them adequately...got to do with becoming Born Again?

How does one also accept Christ/ Holy Spirit into their hearts/ spirit?

How do we accept to be regenerated ?

You have really got that one nailed!