Issues with a doctrine(s) of grace?

[Eleanor]

I was on another forum, where most were freewillers as well....they accused me of not being Born Again and that it was all in my emotions.......the battle went on for weeks....oh boy did they try and get me to change my testimony on how I was birthed in the Spirit.....I guess it was all down to how strongly they believed in freewill.

Personally I can’t get my head around this free will business...probably never will, because of the way I became Born Again...by God’s supernatural power, through the Holy Spirit.

Precisely!

He has blessed you with a strong experience that you may never be persuaded otherwise regarding that fundamental truth.
I suspect it is going to be greatly needed somewhere one day.

 

[Eleanor]

I was on another forum, where most were freewillers as well....they accused me of not being Born Again and that it was all in my emotions.......the battle went on for weeks....oh boy did they try and get me to change my testimony on how I was birthed in the Spirit.....I guess it was all down to how strongly they believed in freewill.

Personally I can’t get my head around this free will business...probably never will, because of the way I became Born Again...by God’s supernatural power, through the Holy Spirit.

There is free will in Scripture, but it's not what everyone is presenting it to be; i.e., choice by one's own decision and power.

 

[David1701]

Yes I was brother. We used to tag team the synergists and provisionists all of the time back in the day.

I remember.

 

[David1701]

Ok I will take a swing at it

If man is totally depraved, cannot seek God, cannot think a right though about God, cannot know truth as the "T" in tulip infers, then why did God have to say 3 times He had to give these unbelieving reprobates over ?

Also is man is so utterly depraved , dead ( corpse like ) , deaf, blind state etc...... then why would Jesus have to hide the truth from the dead, deaf, blind with parables ? That would be unnecessary since they cannot possibly understand anything id they were dead like a corpse.

Also how can these reprobates suppress the truth since they are dead and incapable of knowing the truth ?


Romans 1
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.

Several reasons why I think the doctrine of TD is not true

1-they suppressed the truth- one has to know the truth to suppress the truth
2-they knew God, He was self evident to them
3-God was understood to them
4-they exchanged the truth
5-they did not retain the knowledge of God, it was not worthwhile for them
6- Therefor from all the above facts God declares 3 times that He gave them over
7- God doesn't need to give anyone over who is already completely unable, enable, completely and totally depraved with no ability's to do otherwise
8- parables would not be necessary if TD were true and men are in corpse like state by birth.

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Totally Depraved would imply that one is never able to do what is right and lawful; scripture states that man naturally can keep the law.

Civic, honestly, there's such a load of nonsense in this that one would think that you had never known about these matters. Just ask yourself how you would have answered this, in times past. You would not have found it difficult...

 

[Eleanor]

Amen sister!

@civic
One big issue with synergists is they forget about context. Civic is pretty smart (in my opinion) so he must have forgot. I think if he hangs around here to much he will become a monergist
That they cannot see, hear or understand the truth is why Jesus spoke in parables to them. It does not teach that the parables makes it so they cannot understand.

See Mt 13:10-16. They are willingly ignorant (v. 13).

So even what the unbeliever has (context) will be taken away. But if they had eyes to see and ears to hear they would believe and healed. Jesus spoke to them in parables because they do not understand. It’s quite clear

And those who have, eyes to see, ears to hear more will be given, they will be give the secrets of heaven.

Its prophecy fulfilled.

 

[Carbon]

Limited atonement is simply election.
Is that hard for you also?

I realize what it is.

Total depravity is simply spiritual death--unable to see, hear, act apart from the rebirth by the Holy Spirit.

I know what that is also.

But you obviously don't know what I am talking about.

 

[Carbon]

Civic, honestly, there's such a load of nonsense in this that one would think that you had never known about these matters. Just ask yourself how you would have answered this, in times past. You would not have found it difficult...

I too expected much better.

But no one is perfect. I know I aint

But like I said before, sometimes we forget, context and such

 

[Arial]

Man's responsibility is not based on his ability, but on what he justly and rightly owes God, which is submission and obedience, which he is liable to pay, or face the Court.

Yes I know to the first part. The Christian does not have to face the court. Sin no longer condemns him.
And the thing I had to work out is not whether or not man has responsibility towards God, but how that integrates with His sovereignty. I have it worked out now.

What acronym?

T.U.L.I.P.

 

[Carbon]

Yes I know to the first part. The Christian does not have to face the court. Sin no longer condemns him.

Amen to that.

 

[Eleanor]

I realize what it is.

I know what that is also.

But you obviously don't know what I am talking about.

Yes, I am very literal, and understood you to be talking about the principles of the doctrines themselves as they would apply to your daughters.

 

[Arial]

I was Drawn" to read the Bible by curiosity.
Is curiosity a form of irresistible grace?

Many Christians talk about the heavy weight of sin dragging them down. Drug addiction is one example. Many state they were dead on the bottom of the lake, drowned in sin until, "amazing grace found a wretch like me."

When man is dragged by the very weight of his sin to God, is that an irresistible grace?

That would depend on what the end result is in relation to Christ. If the result is trusting in the person and work of Jesus, I would have to say probably so.

 

[Ladodgers6]

Is there any of the doctrines of grace (TULIP) that you did at one time, or maybe still do have issues with?
One you just can’t settle with or wish there was a way around it.
Have you tried and tested it in hopes to prove it wrong?
This question(s) is mainly for Calvinists but of course Arminians are welcome to answer and discuss as well.

Excellent questions to open up dialogue and discuss God's word with humility, respect, love, and growth in his word.

 

[Ladodgers6]

And I would respond with John 12:32 with the same use of draw with all men, all people, everyone depending on the translation.

John 12:32
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

Can you explain this "drawing"?

 

[fastfredy0]

And I would respond with John 12:32 with the same use of draw with all men, all people, everyone depending on the translation.

All - used to refer to the whole quantity or extent of a particular group or thing
Every - used to refer to all the individual members of a set without exception

Warning: The meaning of the words “all” and “every” and “everyone” has been distorted by many to make verses fit the doctrine they prescribe. As these words can refer to ambiguous groupings, it is best to ascertain the specific meaning from scripture that is explicit rather than implicit.
In Scripture the word “all” (as applied to humankind) is used in two senses—absolutely and relatively. In some passages it means all without exception; in others it signifies all without distinction.
To demonstrate:

• John 14:26 But the Helper (Comforter, Advocate, Intercessor—Counselor, Strengthener, Standby), the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name [in My place, to represent Me and act on My behalf], He will teach you all things. And He will help you remember everything that I have told you. The Spirit has infinite knowledge so the transference of “ALL” without exception is not possible.
• Acts 26:4 Paul says, The Jews all know the way I have lived ever since I was a child, from the beginning of my life in my own country, and also in Jerusalem. Does he mean that every Jew without exception knew him? How about those who lived in the past and those who would live in the future?
• Romans 8:32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?; That he doth not give all things to all people is self-evident
• I could go on ...

 

[Ritajanice]

I was Drawn" to read the Bible by curiosity.
Is curiosity a form of irresistible grace?

Many Christians talk about the heavy weight of sin dragging them down. Drug addiction is one example. Many state they were dead on the bottom of the lake, drowned in sin until, "amazing grace found a wretch like me."

When man is dragged by the very weight of his sin to God, is that an irresistible grace?

I don’t understand when you say, when man is dragged by the very weight of his sin to God, do you mean they knew they were in sin before God birthed them in the Spirit?

I don’t believe one knows they are in / we’re in sin, not until God births us in the Spirit, it was like a weight being taken from me, I was forgiven of my sins and became right before God ,when I was birthed in the Spirit, of course there was much more to it than that...I had been set free from that dreadful darkness and alienation from God...I only knew this through the rebirth...as that is when God planted that seed of faith into my heart/ spirit, he opened my heart to receive his Holy Spirit....it was so powerful!..his word to my spirit, that it blew my mind and still does, this was over 31 yrs ago...and still I remember that experience like it had just happened.

Hebrews 4:12​

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King James Version​

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12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.




No one imo/ belief can know God, not until he decides to birth you in the Spirit,....the choice is God’s and his alone!....my testimony and belief 100%.

God’s word is “ LIVING “ his Spirit is very much Alive and Active....you don’t need any bible for God to birth you in the Spirit ...if he chooses you to be his child, you have no say in the matter.....it’s the Biggest Honour and Privilege that man/ woman could ever have.....to belong to God...adopted by him into his Spiritual family....he speaks to us through his Spirit.....mind blowing and Awesome.....I need his living word every day!! and I get it...I couldn’t live without God and he knows it!!....my belief and testimony....

Everything is about God and Glorifying His Name....I’m on the back burner..nothing good in that old me!!..fortunately through surrendering to the Holy Spirit...she’s faded well into the distance....Praise God.

My testimony and belief.

 

[Foghorn]

And I would respond with John 12:32 with the same use of draw with all men, all people, everyone depending on the translation.

John 12:32
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

"This boy is more mixed up than a feather in a whirlwind."

 

[Eleanor]

Totally depraved does not mean that man cannot think a right thought about God or that he cannot know any truth which the T does not infer. You infer that. So your starting premise is false. But we will continue. We have a complete inability to be perfectly righteous, and almost good enough or partly good enough won't suffice.

Jesus says why He used parables and then He explained the parable of the sower to His disciples who had asked the question. Parables probe inside us to see if we really understand the gospel.
Let's take the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector in Luke 18:9-14 for example. When Jesus asked which man went down justified.

I must be having a senior moment here. I'm not getting this.

Do you mean justified by God?

We would say the one who asked for mercy recognizing his sinfulness. That is because even many of us do not really grasp the parable---for we don't see the attitude of the Pharisee deep within ourselves.

I'm confused here.
Seeing the tax collector as the one who was justified is due to our own Pharisaical attitude?

Nobody listening to the parable when Jesus told it would have thought it was the tax collector who went away justified.

Okay, I can understand that.

Also they are a means of further hardening an already hard heart as the illustration of the tax collector shows.

The tax collector's heart was further hardened?

What am I not understanding correctly here?

 

[Arial]

My post 4 presents God as dragging us from the lake bottom.....I don't really believe in the "wooing" here kitty, kitty concept where the Father entices people.

No, not the "Here kitty, kitty concept.

As to drawing there is a sense in regards to the elect that all our lives He is drawing us towards Christ. Every element in our lives, even our rebellion and sins, are leading us to the destination He has for us. That is not to say that He makes us sin or that He is pleased with it. But those things in our life help us to see more clearly and with full assurance, and from our need, when our ears are opened to hear the voice of the Shepherd. It leads to the new birth and for that purpose. We are not one size fits all to God.

 

[Eleanor]

No, not the "Here kitty, kitty concept.

As to drawing there is a sense in regards to the elect that all our lives He is drawing us towards Christ. Every element in our lives, even our rebellion and sins, are leading us to the destination He has for us. That is not to say that He makes us sin or that He is pleased with it. But those things in our life help us to see more clearly and with full assurance, and from our need, when our ears are opened to hear the voice of the Shepherd. It leads to the new birth and for that purpose. We are not one size fits all to God.

Keeping in mind that the spiritually dead, blind, deaf and lame do not see (hear, know or do) anything spiritual until they are spiritually reborn (Jn 3:3-8).

 

[Arial]

I must be having a senior moment here. I'm not getting this.

Do you mean justified by God?

It is what Jesus said. Luke 18:14
14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

I'm confused here.
Seeing the tax collector as the one who was justified is due to our own Pharisaical attitude?

I am pointing out how easy it is to misunderstand a parable even as Christians, which is one reason He spoke in parables. (As opposed to @civics statement that it showed we do have the natural ability to choose Christ). Parables make us look deeply. The topic of the parable was self righteousness. The Pharisees would never have answered the question, "The tax collector was justified before God, not the self righteous Pharisee."

We often have a little Pharisee in us that we do not recognize because we do not fully understand what Jesus is getting at. How often do we judge another Christian or a non Christian, for doing something that we don't do, thinking better of ourselves than we ought?

The tax collector's heart was further hardened?

What am I not understanding correctly here?

You are misreading, I said as the illustration of the tax collector shows.
Not that the tax collector was hardened.