Issues with a doctrine(s) of grace?

[Arial]

My question to you is ....where did you hear?

I’m not talking about the intellect either...I’m talking about “ YOU” ...how can you hear the word of God?

There is only one way to know/ hear God...how is that?

One also doesn’t need any bible either..to hear God and be birthed in the Spirit ..why is that?

Where did I hear? Hear what? Many times the gospel was preached to me over the years. Often by strangers. Non stop for seven years from my brother. I didn't believe it. Until I did. When I did is when I heard and believed what I heard. The difference?

When I didn't believe I had not been born again. When I did believe, I had been born again. It isn't about hearing an audible voice of God or His voice in our mind. It is about believing. And believing has to be in something or someone, no matter how small and uninformed it is in the beginning. Then we learn because we are able to understand what we read---in His word (Bible) to us. That is why He gave us the scriptures in HIs great mercy. If He hadn't, we would all be on that wide road and none be saved.

The very act of believing requires use of the intellect.

More than one way to hear and know God? What about that narrow path and gate? You need to explain to me what you mean by that. He can speak to us in our spirit by the Holy Spirit, but it will be reminding us of what is in His written word. And mostly He speaks to us through His word. The Bible, the written word is Him speaking to us.

What it sounds like you are saying to me when you say we don't need any Bible to hear God and be birthed in the Spirit, is that you are separating God from His word. The Bible doesn't give us birth but what we are birthed to is in the Bible and no place else. We are birthed to salvation and the Savior is revealed to us in the Bible. And if He regenerates us either while we are hearing or reading truths that are in the Bible or regenerates us and then leads us to the Bible, is something we cannot know. We only have hindsight in that matter and know that we wouldn't have believed the gospel unless we had been regenerated.

 

[prism]

Yes (leastwise in my view) ... the alternative is deism and/or dualism and free will which is defined as self-determination


Under my proposal .... God is not a respecter of person (Job 35:7-8); rather, He is the potter who molds objects for His purpose. Some for good like Moses, mediocre persons like me and scum bags like Hunter Bidon.


For the glory of God.... to show His attributes of mercy, forgiveness, long suffering. (Romans 9:14-23)

Obviously, many other opinions

How do you interject man's responsibility in all that, or is man judged guilty for that which God predestined?

 

[Ritajanice]

Where did I hear? Hear what? Many times the gospel was preached to me over the years. Often by strangers. Non stop for seven years from my brother. I didn't believe it. Until I did. When I did is when I heard and believed what I heard. The difference?

What did you hear?

For me I was brought to believe inJesus by God..there was the repentance, Godly sorrow, etc...then the Spiritual birth, you don’t hear that ..you receive it, you hear his word and testifying with our spirit as he is indwelling us , that’s when you hear the Living word of God as God’s spirit is Alive..you know that in your spirit right?

When I didn't believe I had not been born again. When I did believe, I had been born again. It isn't about hearing an audible voice of God or His voice in our mind. It is about believing. And believing has to be in something or someone, no matter how small and uninformed it is in the beginning. Then we learn because we are able to understand what we read---in His word (Bible) to us. That is why He gave us the scriptures in HIs great mercy. If He hadn't, we would all be on that wide road and none be saved.

The very act of believing requires use of the intellect.

More than one way to hear and know God? What about that narrow path and gate? You need to explain to me what you mean by that. He can speak to us in our spirit by the Holy Spirit, but it will be reminding us of what is in His written word. And mostly He speaks to us through His word. The Bible, the written word is Him speaking to us.

What it sounds like you are saying to me when you say we don't need any Bible to hear God and be birthed in the Spirit, is that you are separating God from His word. The Bible doesn't give us birth but what we are birthed to is in the Bible and no place else. We are birthed to salvation and the Savior is revealed to us in the Bible. And if He regenerates us either while we are hearing or reading truths that are in the Bible or regenerates us and then leads us to the Bible, is something we cannot know. We only have hindsight in that matter and know that we wouldn't have believed the gospel unless we had been regenerated.

I’m not separating God from his word at all..why...because his word is a Living spirit..he’s not a book..I have posted so much scripture and you still aren’t getting it..never mind.

God speaks to us through his Spirit..his word is Alive in Spirit.

The rebirth is like the wind..you know that too..right?

It’s about believing and being birthed in the Spirit...belief comes from God...the Spiritual birth that follows after belief in Jesus...is the rebirth...you must have that living spiritual birth..without it.one is not Born again...belief then the birth..
Belief is not enough..you must receive the living spiritual birth.

He gave us his LIVING SPIRIT. In his GREAT MERCY!!...the Living Holy Spirit!

 

[Arial]

What did you hear?

I didn't hear anything with an audible voice. I believed something. What did you hear?

For me I was brought to believe inJesus by God..there was the repentance, Godly sorrow, etc...then the Spiritual birth, you don’t hear that ..you receive it, you hear his word and testifying with our spirit as he is indwelling us , that’s when you hear the Living word of God as God’s spirit is Alive..you know that in your spirit right?

As this stands according to its wording it brings the idea that repentance was the cause of the new birth. I would have to say if there was repentance and Godly sorrow that was because of the new birth, rather than your repentance merited the new birth.

And yes we do know it in our spirit, and it is the Holy Spirit that testifies to our spirit, and the evidence, this testifying, is that we learn and believe. At the same time the things we need to learn and believe are in the Bible, and it does not mean that we always automatically get it right. That whatever we think a scripture is saying is the Holy Spirit telling us that. We have to check everything with the rest of scripture and we should always be growing in our understanding. That is our responsibility----to put His word before us.

I’m not separating God from his word at all..why...because his word is a Living spirit..he’s not a book..I have posted so much scripture and you still aren’t getting it..never mind.

I said that is what it sounds like and I suspect would sound like to anyone. But ok. Why is it me not getting it instead of you not getting it? I will not continue if this is the route you are going to take.

 

[Arial]

We believe in Jesus first as God brings us to believe in his Son....then regeneration takes place birthing in the spirit,, which is a supernatural experience..of course there is much more to it than that, repentance, Godly sorrow...etc...it’s a living spiritual birth...it’s not head knowledge..it’s knowledge from the Holy Spirit, The testifying with our spirit that we are his child..it’s a “ Living “ Spiritual birth...he speaks to our spirit as he’s indwelling us, which is obviously relayed to our minds as he’s birthing us....a Born again recognises the word of God ..as his word is Alive in Spirit. He’s not a book.

OK

 

[Ritajanice]

I didn't hear anything with an audible voice. I believed something. What did you hear?

I didn’t say I heard with an audible voice..he testified with my spirit that I am his child..it’s his living word I received and heard as he was indwelling me...that was relayed to my mind as he was indwelling me.

As this stands according to its wording it brings the idea that repentance was the cause of the new birth. I would have to say if there was repentance and Godly sorrow that was because of the new birth, rather than your repentance merited the new birth.

I completely and 100% disagree.repentance comes before any rebirth.imo/ belief..

Romans 2:4​

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King James Version​

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4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

Repentance is not optional if we want to have a relationship with God. In fact, it is the very first step in coming to faith in Jesus Christ (Acts 2:38). Without repentance, there can be no forgiveness (Luke 13:3).

And yes we do know it in our spirit, and it is the Holy Spirit that testifies to our spirit, and the evidence, this testifying, is that we learn and believe. At the same time the things we need to learn and believe are in the Bible, and it does not mean that we always automatically get it right. That whatever we think a scripture is saying is the Holy Spirit telling us that. We have to check everything with the rest of scripture and we should always be growing in our understanding. That is our responsibility----to put His word before us.

Learn and believe...you don’t learn and believe that one has been birthed in the spirit..you know that straight away..imo/belief.

Whatever we think a scripture is saying....NO...it’s what the living word of God is saying...and NO we don’t always get his living word right....but there is NO MISTAKING that LIVING Spiritual birth...we grow in our understanding via the Holy Spirit..that’s the knowledge we grow in..

I said that is what it sounds like and I suspect would sound like to anyone. But ok. Why is it me not getting it instead of you not getting it? I will not continue if this is the route you are going to take.

Fine, no problem....have a nice day.

 

[Eleanor]

Brother...isn’t sanctification in the hands of the Holy Spirit who indwells us?

Sanctification is through the practice of obedience in the Holy Spirit (Ro 6:16-19) "which leads to righteousness. . .leading to holiness."
Everything up to sanctification: i.e., rebirth, faith, salvation, justification, are the work of God alone through his Spirit.
However, sanctification requires our obedience which transforms us, weakening the old man and growing in the new man, by the Holy Spirit.

We can’t in our own strength make ourselves more like Jesus can we?

Absolutely not, but with the enablement of the Holy Spirit we can in obedience crucify the old man and grow in the power of the new man.
You report subbornness. I predict some day way down the road, it won't be nearly as much of a problem--due to crucifying the old man and growing in the new man enabled by the power of the Holy Spirit.

We rely on the Holy Spirit to work in our hearts.

Yes, but in the Christian life of sanctification (Ro 6:16-19), that is through obedience of the Holy Spirit's enabling power

I know I can be as stubborn as a mule,....only the Holy Spirit can help me deal with that. does that make sense?

Precisely, we all had old-man issues at our rebirth in which we can report spiritual growth into the new man through obedience to the word.

 

[Ritajanice]

Sanctification is through the practice of obedience in the Holy Spirit (Ro 6:16-19) "which leads to righteousness. . .leading to holiness."
Everything up to sanctification: i.e., rebirth, faith, salvation, justification, are the work of God alone through his Spirit.
However, sanctification requires our obedience which transforms us, weakening the old man and growing in the new man, by the Holy Spirit.

Absolutely not, but with the enablement of the Holy Spirit we can in obedience crucify the old man and grow in the power of the new man.
You report subbornness. I predict some day way down the road, it won't be nearly as much of a problem--due to crucifying the old man and growing in the new man enabled by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Yes, but in the Christian life of sanctification (Ro 6: 16, 19), that is through obedience of the Holy Spirit's enabling power

Precisely, we all had old-man issues at our rebirth in which we can report spiritual growth into the new man through obedience to the word.

Excellent post as usual!!..Praise God!!..

 

[fastfredy0]

Re: God determines all things

How do you interject man's responsibility in all that,

By defining 'responsibility' correctly per the dictionary.

Responsibility: Liable to be required to give account, as of one's actions or of the discharge of a duty or trust.

Note: There is nothing in the definition that says that I 'necessarily' am in control of what I am responsible for. Who determines 'responsibility' is someone in authority. In this discussion that is God (He's is the authority over everything ... His glory and not the happiness of man is His purpose)

.... so God controls man and man is responsible for what he does per God's control. So, before the twins Jacob and Esau are born, before doing anything right or wrong God determined He would love Jacob and hate Esau. Note: This is not because God looked into the future to see what they would do; it is because God knew what they would do because He decreed/controls them. God holds each responsible; again, one He loves and one He hates.

or is man judged guilty for that which God predestined?

Yes. The alternative is "free will" as defined as one operating independent of God. Such a thing is logically impossible:
Self-determinism, as proposed by freewill, means one makes choices independent of God and any other influence. But this is logically impossible; it is a circular answer. If there is not a determining cause for the thought process, making a choice would be impossible. To be self-determined, one must be eternal and therefore uncaused. The determinative cause cannot be self-determined, without influence of past experience, state of mind or knowledge. Freewill contradicts this; it says you can reach up into the eternal realm and grab self-determination (uninfluenced); but this is not possible.
When one who supports the idea of Freewill or self-determinism is asked “why you did something he has no answer”. He will resort to a non-answer like “because I wanted to”. When asked why he wanted to he responses “because I choice to want to”; when asked why he choice to want to, he responses “because I wanted to choice to want to” … and on and on the circular reason goes. Short answer: It contradicts the Law of Causality; every effect has a cause.

 

[fastfredy0]

As this stands according to its wording it brings the idea that repentance was the cause of the new birth. I would have to say if there was repentance and Godly sorrow that was because of the new birth, rather than your repentance merited the new birth.

Aside: You're so organized and logical in your responses .... do/did you work in a S.T.E.M. field (Science, Technology, Engineering, Medicine)
.... maybe you raised beautiful horses (giggle)

 

[fastfredy0]

I completely and 100% disagree.repentance comes before any rebirth.imo/ belief..

Romans 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?​

I'm with @Arial ... Rebirth logical precedes faith and repentance. In other words, rebirth causes faith and repentance.

The verse you quote says God goodness leads to (the prerequisite of) repentance. The following verses indicate God grants repentance .... you don't repent independent of God's initiative

• Acts 5:31 God exalted Him to His right hand as Prince and Savior and Deliverer, in order to grant (to give or confer officially or formally) repentance to Israel, and [to grant] forgiveness of sins.
• Acts 11:18b “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance that leads to eternal life [that is, real life after earthly death].”
• 2 Timothy 2:25 He must correct his opponents with courtesy and gentleness, in the hope that God may grant [God’s initiative; not man’s] that they will repent and come to know the Truth [that they will perceive and recognize and become accurately acquainted with and acknowledge it],
• James 1:17 “Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights”

 

[Ritajanice]

I'm with @Arial ... Rebirth logical precedes faith and repentance. In other words, rebirth causes faith and repentance.

The verse you quote says God goodness leads to (the prerequisite of) repentance. The following verses indicate God grants repentance .... you don't repent independent of God's initiative

• Acts 5:31 God exalted Him to His right hand as Prince and Savior and Deliverer, in order to grant (to give or confer officially or formally) repentance to Israel, and [to grant] forgiveness of sins.
• Acts 11:18b “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance that leads to eternal life [that is, real life after earthly death].”
• 2 Timothy 2:25 He must correct his opponents with courtesy and gentleness, in the hope that God may grant [God’s initiative; not man’s] that they will repent and come to know the Truth [that they will perceive and recognize and become accurately acquainted with and acknowledge it],
• James 1:17 “Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights”

No worries,..that’s your opinion.

 

[Arial]

Aside: You're so organized and logical in your responses .... do/did you work in a S.T.E.M. field (Science, Technology, Engineering, Medicine)
.... maybe you raised beautiful horses (giggle)

No. It is just the type of brain I have I guess. And that was probably helped along by a father who often corrected me with "Think before you talk."
Or maybe it is just because I started out lefthanded and was forced into being right handed, and therefore the logical side of my brain gives the more enigmatic side a nudge back on track when it starts to go off the rails.

 

[Eleanor]

All the stuff I've read defines the term 'sanctification' as becoming more Christ like with ups and downs.
If sanctification is 'actual righteousness' then we would be sinless during that phase.

Sanctification is the whole Christian life of growing in holiness.
We are never sinless, but hopefully more sanctified than when we began.

Regeneration-->faith-->salvation-->justification (forensic righteousness)-->sanctification (becoming more Christ-like) -->glorification (actual righteousness).

I'm assuming "Calvinists" understand my doctrinal shorthand. . .mistake?

 

[Ritajanice]

@fastfredy0 .

I said God led me to repentance, before I was birthed in the Spirit...I didn’t know before I was birthed, that it was sin,I just knew I had done a lot of wrong in my life and hurt a lot of people..I was very upset,I’m not going into detail as it was a very private time..after that, thats when he birthed me....he was obviously watching me ,leading and drawing me to Jesus, unbeknown to me at the time....I was sorry before I was birthed ,my belief and testimony 100% and it will never change.

2 Corinthians 7:10 Amplified Bible (AMP)
For [godly] sorrow that is in accord with the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation; but worldly sorrow [the hopeless sorrow of those who do not believe] produces death

 

[prism]

Yes. The alternative is "free will" as defined as one operating independent of God. Such a thing is logically impossible:
Self-determinism, as proposed by freewill, means one makes choices independent of God and any other influence. But this is logically impossible; it is a circular answer. If there is not a determining cause for the thought process, making a choice would be impossible. To be self-determined, one must be eternal and therefore uncaused. The determinative cause cannot be self-determined, without influence of past experience, state of mind or knowledge. Freewill contradicts this; it says you can reach up into the eternal realm and grab self-determination (uninfluenced); but this is not possible.
When one who supports the idea of Freewill or self-determinism is asked “why you did something he has no answer”. He will resort to a non-answer like “because I wanted to”. When asked why he wanted to he responses “because I choice to want to”; when asked why he choice to want to, he responses “because I wanted to choice to want to” … and on and on the circular reason goes. Short answer: It contradicts the Law of Causality; every effect has a cause.

How about compatibilism?, where God is 100% sovereign, yet keeping intact man's responsibility 100%.
That's about as close to Scripture I can come and still keep the two tensions from tromping on the other.

 

[Eleanor]

@fastfredy0 .

I said God led me to repentance, before I was birthed in the Spirit...I didn’t know before I was birthed, that it was sin,I just knew I had done a lot of wrong in my life and hurt a lot of people..I was very upset,I’m not going into detail as it was a very private time..after that, thats when he birthed me....he was obviously watching me ,leading and drawing me to Jesus, unbeknown to me at the time....I was sorry before I was birthed ,my belief and testimony 100% and it will never change.

2 Corinthians 7:10 Amplified Bible (AMP)
For [godly] sorrow that is in accord with the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation; but worldly sorrow [the hopeless sorrow of those who do not believe] produces death.

Maybe rebirth and infilling are two different things, often occurirng together, and then maybe not, but still two different things.

Any movement toward things of God in the heart; i.e., conviction, sorrow, repentance, seeking God, etc. would indicate the new birth has taken place, because the spiritually dead do none of these things.

Whereas the powerful experience of faith in God and his presence would be an infilling.

We do not experience the new birth, but we experience the infilling.

 

[Ritajanice]

Online source.

This verse makes clear that there is a kind of sorrow that is according to the will of God. There is a sorrow that God wants you to experience, because the sorrow that is according to the will of God “produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation” (2 Cor 7:10

Amen!!...my opinion and belief.

This all happened “ before “ I was birthed in the Spirit.

 

[prism]

We do not experience the new birth, but we experience the infilling.

I would hope we at least experience the effects of the new birth...

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Ephesians 2:2-3
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: [3] Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

 

[Carbon]

I would hope we at least experience the effects of the new birth...

Of course, we do.