Issues with a doctrine(s) of grace?

[Ritajanice]

That was not about limited atonement...
Paul was dealing with a bad attitude with some in their thinking.

The attitude was concerning as follows.

Since God puts all of us through pressures (potters wheel) to see what we are made of? Some said that it was God's fault that some turn out bad.. That if God just left them alone, or gave them less pressures? They would have turned out good!

That was their contention. They were trying to blame God for those who made wrong decisions. For how could anyone resist such pressures that God knew would cause them to turn out bad?

But they forget. God puts those who turn out well with the same pressures, and sometimes even more.

For if the pressures were too great for some? And, if God made the pressures less? They would turn out well. For how could that person resist doing what they ended up being? Since God gave those pressures? He must have wanted them to turn out bad!

Paul retorts ..... Who are you to talk back to God? If He seeks to find out who is good, or who will choose for bad? Who are you to talk back to the Potter!? Yet, keep in mind. There are those who turned out good that went through even stronger pressures. It was not like God wanted to make sure someone turned out bad..... "He is the potter! He knows what He is doing! If some turn out bad, and others turn out good? Who are you to tell God how He should do things to make sure everyone turns out as you want them to?

enuf said ...............

@GeneZ ...interesting post and reading.

When you say, God puts us through pressure, which I most definitely believe he does, it that the same as testing us?

Just like when he tested Adam and Eve?

Only with us...we can only be tested when we become Born Again as we then are adopted by him, through his Holy Spirit.

 

[Ritajanice]

God has an appointed time of salvation for all His chosen ones.

I would say, God has an appointed time ,to birth his children in the Spirit.

And at that time, the Holy Spirit regenerates the person.

Yes, our spirit is brought to life by the birthing of our spirit.

This person has been crucified with Christ. How this person felt about it, or what they thought about it had nothing to do with it. If our thoughts and desires affect our salvation,

We had no say in the matter...God chose you and everyone else to be birthed in the spirit, that was the appointed time and God’s timing is “ PERFECT “ ..he is never late.

For me at times, I want to rush God and I tell him to hurry up....then he reminds me, that he’s in control and that his timing is perfect.

Paul's story would have been different. And as I believe you all agree, once this regeneration has taken place, we are new creations, we have just been a part of the first resurrection in Christ. Therefore, we new creatures are believers, it's a package deal (please excuse the expression). Since we are believers, we will eventually express this with our mouths.

We are new creations indeed....and we know this through the mind blowing rebirth...that’s how it was for me....I also understand that other believers experience the rebirth differently to others.

The one thing we have in common is...no one can become Born Again..unless the Father draws us to the Son/ Jesus.....

We are Born Again...we have the Spirit of Christ in our hearts/ spirit...that’s why we crave fellowship with each other, because we are Brothers and Sisters in Christ....

We talk Jesus day and night....sometimes we get a bit to passionate ..and things may get heated...but, we sometimes need a firm word, like you gave me in a pm.....you were right in what you said...and I calmed down...I’m starting to understand and see my trigger points..on why I get over heated at times...at the end of the day, none of us are perfect and we are all learning to interact with each other, in a respectful/ firm and loving way....this is where we need the Spirit of Jesus to lead us...all in my opinion and belief...

 

[Arial]

You, personally, don’t know how God births his children, and reading your testimony in how you believe you are Born Again, certainly makes NO sense to me, not that it has to, as that’s between you and God...

Do you think statements like this are conducive to profitable conversation?

 

[Ritajanice]

Do you think statements like this are conducive to profitable conversation?

Do you think what you say here is also positive conversation?


@Arial said this to me on another post.

How do you know it is the Holy Spirit and not just you thinking?

I’m leaving anyway...I came here for fellowship and learning....I didn’t come here to be told by you this....

You DO NOT tell anyone how to be birthed in the Spirit....goodbye .

 

[TB2]

Do you think what you say here is also?


@Arial said this to me on another post.

How do you know it is the Holy Spirit and not just you thinking?

Just reading over the series of posts earlier in the thread yesterday, it seems like you two might be misunderstanding each other due to the way things are being phrased. For example, when ritajanice wrote this:

"You, personally, don’t know how God births his children, and reading your testimony in how you believe you are Born Again, certainly makes NO sense to me, not that it has to, as that’s between you and God..."

It seems like @Ritajanice was actually supporting the legitimacy of @Arial 's testimony even if it didn't make sense to her (while defending her own) (see bolded words), and yet I can also see how her words could easily be misconstrued as being an attack by the way it was worded ("your testimony... certainly makes NO sense to me"). Plus, based on what I've read it now seems like the two of you are conditioned to react negatively to each other and seem on guard and expect the other to say negative things; are expecting the worst in each other.

I don't know how one solves that. It's well known how easily misunderstood people's intentions are in this type of communication (emails, texts, online comments, etc.). But perhaps awareness of the possibility is a start.

 

[Arial]

Just reading over the series of posts earlier in the thread yesterday, it seems like you two might be misunderstanding each other due to the way things are being phrased. For example, when ritajanice wrote this:

"You, personally, don’t know how God births his children, and reading your testimony in how you believe you are Born Again, certainly makes NO sense to me, not that it has to, as that’s between you and God..."

It seems like @Ritajanice was actually supporting the legitimacy of @Arial 's testimony even if it didn't make sense to her (while defending her own) (see bolded words), and yet I can also see how her words could easily be misconstrued as being an attack by the way it was worded ("your testimony... certainly makes NO sense to me"). Plus, based on what I've read it now seems like the two of you are conditioned to react negatively to each other and seem on guard and expect the other to say negative things; are expecting the worst in each other.

I don't know how one solves that. It's well known how easily misunderstood people's intentions are in this type of communication (emails, texts, online comments, etc.). But perhaps awareness of the possibility is a start.

You are correct that we are unable to communicate, so far apart are we on, not beliefs, but in the way we communicate. If I don't understand something she says, and I often don't, I try to get to the bottom of it. The only way I know how to do that is by asking questions or answering hers. I don't get answers, I get accusations of my ignorance, and no attempt from her to understand what I am saying. As though if I ask questions I am doubting her salvation or condemning her experience. And yes, then in frustration and from me being treated of no value or importance, contemptible even, my approach gets more pointed and by many considered harsh. But I have never put her down, accused her of anything false with the knowledge and understanding that it was false, demeaned her, never approached her with malice. If she deems it that way, that is in her mind, not mine. @Ritajanice

 

[Ritajanice]

You are correct that we are unable to communicate, so far apart are we on, not beliefs, but in the way we communicate. If I don't understand something she says, and I often don't, I try to get to the bottom of it. The only way I know how to do that is by asking questions or answering hers. I don't get answers, I get accusations of my ignorance, and no attempt from her to understand what I am saying. As though if I ask questions I am doubting her salvation or condemning her experience. And yes, then in frustration and from me being treated of no value or importance, contemptible even, my approach gets more pointed and by many considered harsh. But I have never put her down, accused her of anything false with the knowledge and understanding that it was false, demeaned her, never approached her with malice. If she deems it that way, that is in her mind, not mine. @Ritajanice

Can we please put our differences aside...give each other a hug and move on with the discussion..start afresh please?..

 

[TB2]

You are correct that we are unable to communicate, so far apart are we on, not beliefs, but in the way we communicate. If I don't understand something she says, and I often don't, I try to get to the bottom of it. The only way I know how to do that is by asking questions or answering hers. I don't get answers, I get accusations of my ignorance, and no attempt from her to understand what I am saying. As though if I ask questions I am doubting her salvation or condemning her experience. And yes, then in frustration and from me being treated of no value or importance, contemptible even, my approach gets more pointed and by many considered harsh. But I have never put her down, accused her of anything false with the knowledge and understanding that it was false, demeaned her, never approached her with malice. If she deems it that way, that is in her mind, not mine. @Ritajanice

I've made many mistakes in my life and one valuable (yet painful) lesson I learned over decades as a teacher (confirmed by the experience of many other teachers and administrators) is how very, very, very difficult it is to have these types of conversations in this manner. I have explained myself until I'm blue in the face in emails to parents and watched as each email made it worse and worse and then worse still as people read emotions and intentions and motivations into written words that aren't actually there, and exchanges like that will go back and forth for days, weeks, and just compound problems (and frustration like you say!).

And then a 5-10 minute phone conversation is all it takes to clear things up. They say 70-80% of communication is not the actual words, so a lot is lost in translation with text only.

Unfortunately, that doesn't help solve such problems here in forums, since a phone call's not really an option. Maybe someone else has an easier quick fix (I'd love it if someone does, please post that immediately to help us all!!!). Unfortunately, my experience is I've had to make years and years and years of mistakes to learn what words and phrasings are easily misconstrued and to avoid (and that’s still only for very specific contexts). But I'm a slow learner, so I have more hope for the rest of y'all.

 

[TB2]

Can we please put our differences aside...give each other a hug and move on with the discussion..start afresh please?..

This works too!

 

[Arial]

Can we please put our differences aside...give each other a hug and move on with the discussion..start afresh please?..

That would be a good thing to do.

 

[Ritajanice]

This works too!

 

[Ritajanice]

That would be a good thing to do.

 

[fastfredy0]

Regeneration-->faith-->salvation-->justification (forensic righteousness)-->sanctification (actual righteousness)-->resurrection.

All the stuff I've read defines the term 'sanctification' as becoming more Christ like with ups and downs.
If sanctification is 'actual righteousness' then we would be sinless during that phase.

Regeneration-->faith-->salvation-->justification (forensic righteousness)-->sanctification(becoming more Christ-like) -->glorification(actual righteousness).

 

[Arial]

Unfortunately, that doesn't help solve such problems here in forums, since a phone call's not really an option. Maybe someone else has an easier quick fix (I'd love it if someone does, please post that immediately to help us all!!!). Unfortunately, my experience is I've had to make years and years and years of mistakes to learn what words and phrasings are easily misconstrued and to avoid (and that’s still only for very specific contexts). But I'm a slow learner, so I have more hope for the rest of y'all.

Sometime if a person's motive or intent is unclear it helps to ask them if that was what they meant, saying they couldn't tell from the wording. Rather than following the assumption into a reactive response, which then escalates, I discovered this the other day with @Eleanor. Kind of a duh moment on my end but we live and learn. She made a statement that could easily have been taken as sarcastic. So I told her I couldn't tell if it was sarcastic or not. To which she replied, "Not at all." (possible paraphrase) I acknowledged that with a "like" and that was the end of it.

Now the hard part. Remembering to always take my own advice on the matter.

 

[Arial]

All the stuff I've read defines the term 'sanctification' as becoming more Christ like with ups and downs.
If sanctification is 'actual righteousness' then we would be sinless during that phase.

Regeneration-->faith-->salvation-->justification (forensic righteousness)-->sanctification(becoming more Christ-like) -->glorification(actual righteousness).

The first four, regeneration, faith, salvation, justification are distinct in what they are, but happen at the same time. Sanctification is ongoing through our entire journey here. Glorification and actual righteousness are a future event. That is how I see it.

 

[fastfredy0]

So is every aspect of all people determined by God?

Yes (leastwise in my view) ... the alternative is deism and/or dualism and free will which is defined as self-determination

If not, why not? (respecter of persons?)

Under my proposal .... God is not a respecter of person (Job 35:7-8); rather, He is the potter who molds objects for His purpose. Some for good like Moses, mediocre persons like me and scum bags like Hunter Bidon.

If so, why judge those aspects already determined by God?

For the glory of God.... to show His attributes of mercy, forgiveness, long suffering. (Romans 9:14-23)

Obviously, many other opinions

 

[Ritajanice]

All the stuff I've read defines the term 'sanctification' as becoming more Christ like with ups and downs.
If sanctification is 'actual righteousness' then we would be sinless during that phase.

Regeneration-->faith-->salvation-->justification (forensic righteousness)-->sanctification(becoming more Christ-like) -->glorification(actual righteousness).

Brother...isn’t sanctification in the hands of the Holy Spirit who indwells us?

We can’t in our own strength make ourselves more like Jesus can we?

We rely on the Holy Spirit to work in our hearts.

I know I can be as stubborn as a mule,....only the Holy Spirit can help me deal with that. does that make sense?

 

[TB2]

Sometime if a person's motive or intent is unclear it helps to ask them if that was what they meant, saying they couldn't tell from the wording. Rather than following the assumption into a reactive response, which then escalates, I discovered this the other day with @Eleanor. Kind of a duh moment on my end but we live and learn. She made a statement that could easily have been taken as sarcastic. So I told her I couldn't tell if it was sarcastic or not. To which she replied, "Not at all." (possible paraphrase) I acknowledged that with a "like" and that was the end of it.

Now the hard part. Remembering to always take my own advice on the matter.

Wise words!

 

[fastfredy0]

The first four, regeneration, faith, salvation, justification are distinct in what they are, but happen at the same time. Sanctification is ongoing through our entire journey here. Glorification and actual righteousness are a future event. That is how I see it.

agreed.
I've heard where people split Sanctification into:

1. Positional (Initial) Sanctification from the Penalty of Sin (Justification)
2. Progressive Sanctification from the Power of Sin.
3. Ultimately Sanctified from the Presence of Sin. (Glorification)

@TB2 rightly mentioned that people use terms differently and this often causes confusion.

 

[Ritajanice]

Nature of grace – Arminians believe that, through grace, God restores free will concerning salvation to all humanity, and each individual, therefore, is able either to accept the Gospel call through faith or resist it through unbelief.

How does one accept the Gospel call through faith?

That makes no sense to me..I’m trying to understand it...out of curiosity really...I like to stay open minded.

When they say faith...do they actually believe they heard God through their own faith?