Issues with a doctrine(s) of grace?

[Arial]

agreed.
I've heard where people split Sanctification into:

1. Positional (Initial) Sanctification from the Penalty of Sin (Justification)
2. Progressive Sanctification from the Power of Sin.
3. Ultimately Sanctified from the Presence of Sin. (Glorification)

@TB2 rightly mentioned that people use terms differently and this often causes confusion.

And there is a positional sanctification---set aside as holy to God. But when one is using it that way they should clarify as the most common usage is referring to the continuous being conformed to the image of Christ---never completely arrived at this side of glorification.

Yes word usage can be a big problem---and causes many an argument. Some historic meanings of words are so far removed and altered from how they originally were used back in the day, as to often have people trying to have a debate while the conversations are two people on a parallel, never meeting.

And some have a completely different concept of a word in their mind than is meant in Christianity. This becomes a rats nest when trying to debate with such things as Unitarianism, Islam,---well any non-Christian religion and especially if they consider themselves to be Christian while denying all or some of the major, necessary tenets, but borrowing the words.

 

[Ritajanice]

Got summary.

What is positional sanctification?​

ANSWER

To sanctify means to set apart as holy, which is what happens to sinners who are saved from sin by the grace of God through the gift of faith (Ephesians 2:8–9). The three “phases” of salvation are positional sanctification, progressive sanctification, and final sanctification. At the moment of salvation, we are sanctified or set apart positionally; that is, we are saved from the ultimate penalty of sin. Then begins progressive sanctification, the process whereby we are saved from the practice and power of sin. And after this physical life is over, we will be sanctified finally; that is, we will be saved from the presence of sin.

Positional sanctification is a one-time act of the Holy Spirit on the hearts of unbelievers whom He has chosen for salvation from sin. At the moment of salvation, believers understand and acknowledge their sinful state, their inability to save themselves through any works of their own, their need of a savior, their acceptance of the sacrifice of Christ on the cross as sin’s payment, and their faith in Jesus’ resurrection. At that moment, believers are brought out of darkness into the light. Our position before God has been changed forever. No longer dead in trespasses, we are made alive together with Christ (Ephesians 2:5). Our position changes in that we are made citizens of a whole new kingdom: “He has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves” (Colossians 1:13).

Positional sanctification also changes our position as sinners deserving of God’s wrath to the position of beloved children of the Father and perfect in His eyes. Our new position means we are part of the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:27); God’s special possession (1 Peter 2:9); new creations (2 Corinthians 5:17); dead to sin (Romans 6:2); and possessors of the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4). Because salvation is an act of the Spirit, the believer’s new position cannot change, be lost, or be given back. We cannot “un-save” ourselves, nor can we alter our position before God through any of our works or the lack thereof. We are kept in the position of beloved for the rest of our lives and throughout eternity. Positional sanctification is the work of God whereby He sets us apart and considers us holy in His eyes: “God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus” (Ephesians 2:6). Positional sanctification is not dependent on our feelings or whims; it is a fact of salvation, even though our actions on earth do not always align with our position in heaven.


My words Amen..we have been birthed in the spirit and are children of the most high..we are HIS and only HIS...we are in the world but we are not of the world..we are in the Kingdom of God.


Got words.
Positional sanctification inevitably leads to progressive sanctification, with good works as the inevitable result. Those who are born again will naturally begin to act according to their new nature in Christ, and the result will be increasing holiness in personal living (1 Peter 1:15–16). The positionally sanctified will be progressively sanctified by the same Holy Spirit who regenerated us in the first place. The works that God has foreordained for us will be accomplished through His power (Ephesians 2:10).

My words
AMEN!!...makes perfect sense to me..a Born Again will and does act according to their new nature..as they grow and mature in Christ....the power of the Holy Spirit is at work within our hearts, making us into the image of Jesus..which is an Honour by the way.

Got words

Once we have been positionally sanctified, the process of progressive sanctification begins. Progressive sanctification is the lifelong process of becoming more Christlike as we cooperate with the Holy Spirit and yield to His control (Romans 8:29; 2 Corinthians 3:18). Once we are positionally sanctified, the Holy Spirit uses the Word of God to progressively sanctify us (John 17:17) so that in the end our practical holiness aligns with our positional holiness when we see Christ face to face in glory (1 John 3:2).

 

[GeneZ]

Regeneration and faith happen at the same time. We may not realize we are believers instantly, and it may also take a bit before we confess this reality. And the gospel has everything to do about it. The gospel (the whole bible) is about Christ. Though we may not understand it all, there is just something about Jesus that we cannot get away from, and we finally confess to him as what he is, Lord. We don't ask him, or accept him to be our Lord, we confess him because he is Lord. .

Regeneration takes place when the Holy Spirit is able to remove Himself from His temporary function acting as our human spirit.
Until He is removed we are in a state of "induced regeneration." We were placed on spiritual life support.

The state of being on "life support" (Holy Spirit) is removed once God sees us breathing on our own.
Then we are able to spiritually breath on our own because the Holy Spirit had implanted in us a new human spirit.... Regeneration.

Faith was our first meal. The first breast feeding on the milk of the Word = Gospel about Christ.

Regeneration does not come first. Induced regeneration comes first.

So, it looks like there is an induced regeneration by the Spirit taking place just before regeneration is implanted.

Just a thought...........

 

[Arial]

How does one accept the Gospel call through faith?

Any who reject the gospel have not been regenerated (reborn) of God. They reject it because they don't believe it.

Those who believe it when they hear it, do so because they have been regenerated by God's grace, and their faith (trust) rests solely on who He is and what He did for us on the cross.

The Arminiest believes that only the ability of freewill restored by grace is necessary, not a supernatural act of God.

When they say faith...do they actually believe they heard God through their own faith?

In the free will argument they think the faith is their own, not a gift of God, and since grace gave them an ability to make a choice their salvation depends on what choice they make. They say that after they have made a choice for against believing, if they choose to believe, then God regenerates them. It really is topsy turvey and cart before the horse.

 

[Carbon]

God predestined those in Christ to be conformed to His image. These are those after Christ ascended and the Father made Him head of the Body. People before that time are not able to be made like Christ, because His divine nature was not as yet available, (for Christ hadn`t been manifest on earth, die, rose and ascended to give the Holy spirit to make believers like Himself).

`Predestined to be conformed to Christ`s image,` is like people after Christ ascended, going through the door of the whosoever and then turning round and seeing on the back of the door `predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ.`

We always need to read `predestined` to what, or rather who.

No good thinking that those before Christ was manifest etc could become like Him, there was no possibility. Thus, they were not predestined to be like Christ but still able to be saved to their inheritance because of Christ`s sacrifice.

Thanks for your opinion.

 

[Ritajanice]

Any who reject the gospel have not been regenerated (reborn) of God. They reject it because they don't believe it.

Those who believe it when they hear it, do so because they have been regenerated by God's grace, and their faith (trust) rests solely on who He is and what He did for us on the cross.

The Arminiest believes that only the ability of freewill restored by grace is necessary, not a supernatural act of God.


In the free will argument they think the faith is their own, not a gift of God, and since grace gave them an ability to make a choice their salvation depends on what choice they make. They say that after they have made a choice for against believing, if they choose to believe, then God regenerates them. It really is topsy turvey and cart before the horse.

Oh well. I guess we all need to respect the belief of others...

I mean there must be some truth in it..as there are so many testimonies and believers that say this...just because I don’t understand their testimonies..doesn’t make it an untruth ...I’m just not understanding faith before regeneration.

 

[Carbon]

If you hear the gospel we believe it it is because we have been regenerated..

Amen.

 

[Ritajanice]

Amen.

Just to clarify, I didn’t say that @Arial did ....I didn’t understand it..which is ok.i don’t have to.

 

[Carbon]

Do you think what you say here is also positive conversation?


@Arial said this to me on another post.

How do you know it is the Holy Spirit and not just you thinking?

I’m leaving anyway...I came here for fellowship and learning....I didn’t come here to be told by you this....

You DO NOT tell anyone how to be birthed in the Spirit....goodbye .

Rita. It is a legit question.

I don’t know why you would take such offense to that. Especially if it is true you have the spirit in you (which I believe it is) you have the whole Bible backing you.

 

[His clay]

Is there any of the doctrines of grace (TULIP) that you did at one time, or maybe still do have issues with?
One you just can’t settle with or wish there was a way around it.
Have you tried and tested it in hopes to prove it wrong?
This question(s) is mainly for Calvinists but of course Arminians are welcome to answer and discuss as well.

I really think that 95% of the objections to Calvinism and the disagreement over interpretation of various passages stems from what version of human freedom and accountability you endorse. I wholeheartedly reject libertarian freedom, and so 95% of the arguments (very rough percentage estimate) no longer have any traction to me. I bring this up because this seems to me to be the most central issue. Perhaps the issue of autonomy (which I reject) could be more fundamental.

 

[Ritajanice]

Rita. It is a legit question.

I don’t know why you would take such offense to that. Especially if it is true you have the spirit in you (which I believe it is) you have the whole Bible backing you.

Which I’ve already posted scripture claiming I have been birthed in the Spirit...

Also you shall know them by their fruit..you have that new nature..you will see the nature of Christ emerging...obviously not as perfect as he...but you will most definitely see his fruit in his child.

They are being made into Jesus image..by the power that is within them..the Holy Spirit.

 

[Carbon]

Brother...isn’t sanctification in the hands of the Holy Spirit who indwells us?

We can’t in our own strength make ourselves more like Jesus can we?

We rely on the Holy Spirit to work in our hearts.

I know I can be as stubborn as a mule,....only the Holy Spirit can help me deal with that. does that make sense?

You’re absolutely correct. Sanctification is monergistic, in my understanding. Amen

 

[Carbon]

Got summary.

What is positional sanctification?​

ANSWER

To sanctify means to set apart as holy, which is what happens to sinners who are saved from sin by the grace of God through the gift of faith (Ephesians 2:8–9). The three “phases” of salvation are positional sanctification, progressive sanctification, and final sanctification. At the moment of salvation, we are sanctified or set apart positionally; that is, we are saved from the ultimate penalty of sin. Then begins progressive sanctification, the process whereby we are saved from the practice and power of sin. And after this physical life is over, we will be sanctified finally; that is, we will be saved from the presence of sin.

Positional sanctification is a one-time act of the Holy Spirit on the hearts of unbelievers whom He has chosen for salvation from sin. At the moment of salvation, believers understand and acknowledge their sinful state, their inability to save themselves through any works of their own, their need of a savior, their acceptance of the sacrifice of Christ on the cross as sin’s payment, and their faith in Jesus’ resurrection. At that moment, believers are brought out of darkness into the light. Our position before God has been changed forever. No longer dead in trespasses, we are made alive together with Christ (Ephesians 2:5). Our position changes in that we are made citizens of a whole new kingdom: “He has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves” (Colossians 1:13).

Positional sanctification also changes our position as sinners deserving of God’s wrath to the position of beloved children of the Father and perfect in His eyes. Our new position means we are part of the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:27); God’s special possession (1 Peter 2:9); new creations (2 Corinthians 5:17); dead to sin (Romans 6:2); and possessors of the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4). Because salvation is an act of the Spirit, the believer’s new position cannot change, be lost, or be given back. We cannot “un-save” ourselves, nor can we alter our position before God through any of our works or the lack thereof. We are kept in the position of beloved for the rest of our lives and throughout eternity. Positional sanctification is the work of God whereby He sets us apart and considers us holy in His eyes: “God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus” (Ephesians 2:6). Positional sanctification is not dependent on our feelings or whims; it is a fact of salvation, even though our actions on earth do not always align with our position in heaven.


My words Amen..we have been birthed in the spirit and are children of the most high..we are HIS and only HIS...we are in the world but we are not of the world..we are in the Kingdom of God.


Got words.
Positional sanctification inevitably leads to progressive sanctification, with good works as the inevitable result. Those who are born again will naturally begin to act according to their new nature in Christ, and the result will be increasing holiness in personal living (1 Peter 1:15–16). The positionally sanctified will be progressively sanctified by the same Holy Spirit who regenerated us in the first place. The works that God has foreordained for us will be accomplished through His power (Ephesians 2:10).

My words
AMEN!!...makes perfect sense to me..a Born Again will and does act according to their new nature..as they grow and mature in Christ....the power of the Holy Spirit is at work within our hearts, making us into the image of Jesus..which is an Honour by the way.

Got words

Once we have been positionally sanctified, the process of progressive sanctification begins. Progressive sanctification is the lifelong process of becoming more Christlike as we cooperate with the Holy Spirit and yield to His control (Romans 8:29; 2 Corinthians 3:18). Once we are positionally sanctified, the Holy Spirit uses the Word of God to progressively sanctify us (John 17:17) so that in the end our practical holiness aligns with our positional holiness when we see Christ face to face in glory (1 John 3:2).

Sounds Arminian.

 

[GeneZ]

@GeneZ ...interesting post and reading.

When you say, God puts us through pressure, which I most definitely believe he does, it that the same as testing us?

Just like when he tested Adam and Eve?

Only with us...we can only be tested when we become Born Again as we then are adopted by him, through his Holy Spirit.

Testings are pressures that God has arranged for us to go through. It can be simple every day things, or the powerful testings as witnessed to by Job.

Testings are God's quality control check to see if we are, or are not, living according to sound doctrine. If we desire false doctrine?
Doctrine that is designed to get us living by our emotions? We will keep failing the quality control tests. If we accept sound doctrine? Doctrine which the Holy Spirit can make Himself one with us in our experience? We will find ourselves receiving the grace needed for passing the tests.

The tests God gives us are to see if what we have chosen to believe (our faith) is genuine (sound) or false, emotion driven concepts.
For false doctrines are deviously designed to appeal to the emotional patterns of believers who are walking in their flesh. False doctrine simply sits right with their own way of thinking. False doctrines are all over the map to appeal to many different people. But, sound doctrine is always one way. Sound doctrine therefore requires we take up our own cross and deny self to follow Him.

Here is why testings must come.

In all this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief ​

in all kinds of trials. These have come so that the proven genuineness of your faith—of ​

greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may result in praise, ​

glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. ​

​

Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, ​

you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, for you are receiving
the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls." 1 Peter 1:6-9​

One pastor I learn from taught us from the Greek text. He rendered the last verse this way...

Having received back with interest, the ultimate destiny of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.​

We will end up with more than what we began with after testings when our faith is proven genuine.

Grace and peace ............

 

[Carbon]

Regeneration takes place when the Holy Spirit is able to remove Himself from His temporary function acting as our human spirit.
Until He is removed we are in a state of "induced regeneration." We were placed on spiritual life support.

The state of being on "life support" (Holy Spirit) is removed once God sees us breathing on our own.
Then we are able to spiritually breath on our own because the Holy Spirit had implanted in us a new human spirit.... Regeneration.

Faith was our first meal. The first breast feeding on the milk of the Word = Gospel about Christ.

Regeneration does not come first. Induced regeneration comes first.

So, it looks like there is an induced regeneration by the Spirit taking place just before regeneration is implanted.

Just a thought...........

Sounds unbiblical to me.

 

[GeneZ]

Sounds unbiblical to me.

How does that help me explain?

But, it sound Biblical to me?

Deal with a point!

 

[His clay]

Sounds unbiblical to me.

As I read the quote above your response, I'm just shocked at the novelty and unbiblical nature of the comments. Yikes!

 

[Ritajanice]

How does that help me explain?

But, it sound Biblical to me?

Deal with a point!

I agree , that it sounds biblical to you.

I also believe what you and everyone else says,/ believe
s should be respected.

If they don’t agree...then we should address it with dignity and respect....Note to SELF....I’ve learnt a lot about myself and attitude these past few days...Praise God for that!.....it’s good that he’s at at work within us and that we are renewing our minds..to that of Christ’s.

 

[Arial]

This above sounds like work based......we believe.?....we have been regenerated?.....

How is that works based? We believe because we have been regenerated not in order to be regenerated. God is the one who does the regenerating. Birthing us in Christ by Him, instead of our natural birth in Adam.

 

[Ritajanice]

How is that works based? We believe because we have been regenerated not in order to be regenerated. God is the one who does the regenerating. Birthing us in Christ by Him, instead of our natural birth in Adam.

We believe in Jesus first as God brings us to believe in his Son....then regeneration takes place birthing in the spirit,, which is a supernatural experience..of course there is much more to it than that, repentance, Godly sorrow...etc...it’s a living spiritual birth...it’s not head knowledge..it’s knowledge from the Holy Spirit, The testifying with our spirit that we are his child..it’s a “ Living “ Spiritual birth...he speaks to our spirit as he’s indwelling us, which is obviously relayed to our minds as he’s birthing us....a Born again recognises the word of God ..as his word is Alive in Spirit. He’s not a book.