Issues with a doctrine(s) of grace?

[Eleanor]

duplicate

 

[Eleanor]

I would hope we at least experience the effects of the new birth...

The effects of the new birth and its faith would be apparent with knowledge of the gospel.

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Ephesians 2:2-3
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: [3] Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

 

[Ritajanice]

The effects of the new birth and its faith would be apparent with knowledge of the gospel.

Amen!!....100%

 

[Arial]

Maybe rebirth and infilling are two different things, often occurirng together, and then maybe not, but still two different things.

Any movement toward things of God in the heart; i.e., conviction, sorrow, repentance, seeking God, etc. would indicate the new birth has taken place, because the spiritually dead do none of these things.

Whereas the powerful experience of faith in God and his presence would be an infilling.

We do not experience the new birth, but we experience the infilling.

My view. The Holy Spirit gives us the new birth, applying the work of Christ to us. And at the same time the Holy Spirit indwells us for our new life in Christ.

I personally dislike "infilling" or "being filled" with the Holy Spirit as it is misused in Charismatic churches in completely unbiblical and unholy ways. And as something that happens again and again that is more than His indwelling of the believer. But I know you are not referring to it in that way.

 

[Eleanor]

My view. The Holy Spirit gives us the new birth, applying the work of Christ to us. And at the same time the Holy Spirit indwells us for our new life in Christ.

I personally dislike "infilling" or "being filled" with the Holy Spirit as it is misused in Charismatic churches in completely unbiblical and unholy ways. And as something that happens again and again that is more than His indwelling of the believer. But I know you are not referring to it in that way.

So on what basis do we have people sitting in pews for years before they are born again.

Why are they even there if they are not born again?

 

[Arial]

So on what basis do we have people sitting in pews for years before they are born again.

Why are they even there if they are not born again?

That is a question you would have to ask God. I can only give the answer from a human perspective that is based on biblical truth. Because God has not regenerated them.

Curiosity? Tradition? Appearances as being good people? Thinking attending church is the way to heaven?

I am not making the connection to your questions and my post about the indwelling Holy Spirit. What did I miss?

 

[Eleanor]

That is a question you would have to ask God. I can only give the answer from a human perspective that is based on biblical truth. Because God has not regenerated them.

Curiosity? Tradition? Appearances as being good people? Thinking attending church is the way to heaven?

I am not making the connection to your questions and my post about the indwelling Holy Spirit. What did I miss?

The new birth is our topic.

It requires the new birth for the spiritually dead to seek the things of God.

Just wondering why the spiritually dead would be in church,

But then I have the answer to my own question.
If they were regenerate, one trip to church would mean faith.
So they are not regenerate even though they seek church.

 

[TB2]

I personally dislike "infilling" or "being filled" with the Holy Spirit as it is misused in Charismatic churches in completely unbiblical and unholy ways. And as something that happens again and again that is more than His indwelling of the believer. But I know you are not referring to it in that way.

How so?

There does seem a difference between indwelling and filling. Ephesians 5.18

18 Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit

"Be filled" is in the imperative mood (a command, directive) and the present tense indicating we are to be continually filled with the Spirit. Paul is also speaking to believers already indwelt by the Spirit.

 

[Eleanor]

How so?

There does seem a difference between indwelling and filling. Ephesians 5.18

18 Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit

"Be filled" is in the imperative mood (a command, directive) and the present tense indicating we are to be continually filled with the Spirit. Paul is also speaking to believers already indwelt by the Spirit.

Any way you could copy that stuff in smaller print?

I jump outa' my chair every time I roll it up. . .not a pretty sight (me jumpin' outa' my chair and bolting for the door).

 

[TB2]

Any way you could copy that stuff in smaller print?

I jump outa' my chair every time I roll it up. . .not a pretty sight (me jumpin' outa' my chair and bolting for the door).

Don't understand. How is it appearing on your end? It appears no different (is not big) on my end. I'm using a cell phone though. Perhaps it's formatted different on a computer (?)

 

[TB2]

Check now. I just resized it. Does it look better? It is now microscopic on my end and I need a magnifier to read it

 

[Eleanor]

Check now. I just resized it. Does it look better? It is now microscopic on my end and I need a magnifier to read it

Your bolded print is now the correct size.

 

[GeneZ]

Sounds unbiblical to me.

Well?

How else can one consider the spiritual phenomena needed for regeneration while unregenerate?

 

[TB2]

Your bolded print is now the correct size.

Are you using a computer?

 

[fastfredy0]

How about compatibilism?,

ah, made me giggle .... apparently you know the technical term... so here we go ...

where God is 100% sovereign

Short story ...
sovereign: One that exercises supreme, permanent authority, especially in a nation or other governmental unit, as.

God is not 100% sovereign under compatibilism if 100% is defined as everything is caused by God. Compatibilism, IMO, is man's attempt to explain the friction between:

• God's sovereignty and
• the cause of evil (where God is not the cause of evil; rather, the cause is of evil man and God is free to 'permit/allow' man's evil)

So, as I see it .... main stream reform theology doesn't believe in "free will" (self-determination) but when it comes to evil, then they believe in "free will" (self-determination) though they wouldn't put it that way.
Aside: R.C. Sproul (reknown Reform proponent) admits he could never fully explain God’s “permitting” evil”

yet keeping intact man's responsibility 100%.

...again, the definition responsibility IMO is: an authority determines what you are responsible for. You may be responsible to run 60 MPH if the authority says so even though you could never do it. God tells us not to sin knowing that no one can do it and holds us responsible. Maybe the reason is in Romans 11:32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.
The glory of God, not the happiness of the creature, is the true theodicy of sin. William G.T. Shedd

That's about as close to Scripture I can come and still keep the two tensions from tromping on the other.

There's 3 explanations to try to explain the tensions as I understand you have presented. Reform people lean toward Compatibilism
Aside: I know of 50ish verses saying God controls evil, 80ish verses saying God controls men
Ephesians 1:11b according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

My 2 cents

 

[Eleanor]

How so?

There does seem a difference between indwelling and filling. Ephesians 5.18

18 Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit

"Be filled" is in the imperative mood (a command, directive) and the present tense indicating we are to be continually filled with the Spirit. Paul is also speaking to believers already indwelt by the Spirit.

Okay, you could triple the size of that print and it would be good.

 

[Eleanor]

Are you using a computer?

Laptop.

 

[prism]

The effects of the new birth and its faith would be apparent with knowledge of the gospel.

So, we are transformed through knowledge? No Holy Spirit needed? Or?

 

[Eleanor]

ah, made me giggle .... apparently you know the technical term... so here we go ...
Short story ...
sovereign: One that exercises supreme, permanent authority, especially in a nation or other governmental unit, as.
God is not 100% sovereign under compatibilism if 100% is defined as everything is caused by God. Compatibilism, IMO, is man's attempt to explain the friction between:

• God's sovereignty and
• the cause of evil (where God is not the cause of evil; rather, the cause is of evil man and God is free to 'permit/allow' man's evil)

Are you talking the compatibilism of moral responsibility or free will?

So, as I see it .... main stream reform theology doesn't believe in "free will" (self-determination) but when it comes to evil, then they believe in "free will" (self-determination) though they wouldn't put it that way.
Aside: R.C. Sproul (reknown Reform proponent) admits he could never fully explain God’s “permitting” evil”

...again, the definition responsibility IMO is: an authority determines what you are responsible for. You may be responsible to run 60 MPH if the authority says so even though you could never do it. God tells us not to sin knowing that no one can do it and holds us responsible. Maybe the reason is in Romans 11:32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.
The glory of God, not the happiness of the creature, is the true theodicy of sin. William G.T. Shedd

I'm thinking that is a perfect Biblical explanation.

There's 3 explanations to try to explain the tensions as I understand you have presented. Reform people lean toward Compatibilism
Aside: I know of 50ish verses saying God controls evil, 80ish verses saying God controls men
Ephesians 1:11b according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

My 2 cents

 

[Eleanor]

So, we are transformed through knowledge? No Holy Spirit needed? Or?

They would be apparent when the gospel is presented, in that it would be believed.