Issues with a doctrine(s) of grace?

[atpollard]

oh, and welcome to the forum ... glad to see you

Bah … humbug.

 

[atpollard]

Interesting discussion going on but why is everyone getting so worked up?

Original Sin, I think.

 

[GeneZ]

An issue I've had, and Paul brings it up in Rom 9 and (is tied in with limited atonement)...

Romans 9:19
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Or, 'how does God fairly judge those whom He has passed over in election?'
Paul continues...

Romans 9:20-23
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? [21] Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? [22] What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: [23] And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

I'm still not clear on this aspect.

That was not about limited atonement...
Paul was dealing with a bad attitude with some in their thinking.

The attitude was concerning as follows.

Since God puts all of us through pressures (potters wheel) to see what we are made of? Some said that it was God's fault that some turn out bad.. That if God just left them alone, or gave them less pressures? They would have turned out good!

That was their contention. They were trying to blame God for those who made wrong decisions. For how could anyone resist such pressures that God knew would cause them to turn out bad?

But they forget. God puts those who turn out well with the same pressures, and sometimes even more.

For if the pressures were too great for some? And, if God made the pressures less? They would turn out well. For how could that person resist doing what they ended up being? Since God gave those pressures? He must have wanted them to turn out bad!

Paul retorts ..... Who are you to talk back to God? If He seeks to find out who is good, or who will choose for bad? Who are you to talk back to the Potter!? Yet, keep in mind. There are those who turned out good that went through even stronger pressures. It was not like God wanted to make sure someone turned out bad..... "He is the potter! He knows what He is doing! If some turn out bad, and others turn out good? Who are you to tell God how He should do things to make sure everyone turns out as you want them to?

enuf said ...............

 

[Eleanor]

It bothers @fastfredy0 that I viewed Jesus, Santa and the Easter Bunny as equally “real” at the moment that I “encountered” God … so it begs the question of the possibility of a “Road to Damascus” salvation knowing NOTHING about Jesus and his Gospel except a contemptuous myth from TV cartoons as a child.

Is it possible to BE SAVED, and then learn about the SAVIOR?

No, salvation is by faith in the Savior.

However, regeneration is not.

 

[fastfredy0]

No, salvation is by faith in the Savior.

May need a definition of 'saved'. In one respect we are saved before the foundation of the earth ... it's a done deal. On the other hand some association "saved" with being 'born again'.
My 2 cents.
Bedtime

 

[Eleanor]

May need a definition of 'saved'. In one respect we are saved before the foundation of the earth ... it's a done deal.

It's a done deal in the councils of God, but it's not a done deal until it is done in time.

On the other hand some association "saved" with being 'born again'.
My 2 cents.
Bedtime

Thanks.

There's a link between regeneration and salvation, and that link is faith.

Regeneration-->faith-->salvation-->justification (forensic righteousness)-->sanctification (actual righteousness)-->resurrection.

 

[prism]

Perhaps God is the potter. Perhaps every aspect of your being is determined by God; nothing is determined independent of God. So it is not what you've done independent of God that is judged and dealt with, it is God creation to do with as He wishes including determining your entire life and how He will deal with his creation which He decided to do in eternity past.

• Acts 17:28 for “‘In him we live and move and have our being
• Hebrews 1:3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power

IMO

So is every aspect of all people determined by God?
If not, why not? (respecter of persons?)
If so, why judge those aspects already determined by God?

 

[Carbon]

God predestines some, and then turns around and judges those weren't predestined.
i'm not saying I disagree, I just have a difficult time with that truth.

Yes, this could be difficult for many.

Here is my understanding.
God does predestine His chosen to salvation and passes over the rest. He does not force others to reject Him, they reject God because they choose to. Because they choose to reject Him dores not release them from their obligation to worship and believe.

 

[TB2]

... so it begs the question of the possibility of a “Road to Damascus” salvation knowing NOTHING about Jesus and his Gospel...

Is it possible to BE SAVED, and then learn about the SAVIOR?

Yes (if I understand your meaning), but doesn’t the Savior's revealing Himself during a "Road to Damascus" experience count as "learning" in the most important way?

 

[prism]

Justice and Glory requires that everyone without exception SHOULD be judged, condemned and damned for “rejecting so great a salvation”

That's about as close as I can get to grasping it.

 

[Ritajanice]

It is not a point of contention between you and me but it was the confusion I had with what @Ritajanice was saying. She said she was born again when Jesus popped into her head. That it did not take any knowledge or scripture. That is a very difficult thing for me to understand what she means without clarification. All I was ever trying to do was get clarification and whenever I try to get clarification she gets offended and angry.

I said no such thing.

God drew me to Jesus, and he came into my thoughts out of nowhere ,” Boom” there he was, in my thoughts....,therefore God enabled me to believe in Jesus...you haven’t a clue what my thoughts were at the time either, ......that was a very private time..

You, personally, don’t know how God births his children, and reading your testimony in how you believe you are Born Again, certainly makes NO sense to me, not that it has to, as that’s between you and God...

God speaks to the heart of his children, as he’s indwelling them, he testifies with our spirit that we are his children, it’s a “ Living “ birth, it’s a mind blowing birth.

It took no knowledge of scripture , no bible reading, for God to birth me in the Spirit, that is correct,but, when I went out and bought a Bible, there was his word that he testified to my spirit that we are his children....also the wind blows, scripture...do you actually understand what God is saying there and how he births his children.?

Then there is flesh gives birth to flesh.

John 3:6-7 King James Version (KJV)
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Spirit gives birth to spirit......which is so easy to understand, as long as one has been birthed in the Spirit.

We are also Born Again and saved at the same time...saved from eternal damnation....the word of God is revealed to our heart....what does that mean to you?.

The thing is “ YOU” don’t understand my rebirth...and imo, you aren’t understanding the words of God that I have posted many times,,,,no problem....

If @Carbon thinks I’m a false prophet that I’m not Born Again, then he best delete my account....I will certainly NEVER deny how God birthed me in the Spirit, to satisfy your unbelief that I am Born Again...I would sooner DIe.

Also

Romans 8:16 Context​

13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. 18For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God

John 3:8​

“The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.”

 

[Ritajanice]

You must have the new birth in order to have faith but also you have faith because of the new birth.

You must be birthed in the Spirit, ..only a Born Again will see the Kingdom of God.

The scripture I have posted above.....are the “ LIVING “ “ POWERFUL “ words of God..do you actually understand that?...

Powerful words that speak to our Spirit?..why...because we have been birthed in the Spirit....

I think imo/ belief, you don’t understand ...which is pretty obvious by reading your posts....no problem...

 

[TB2]

God speaks to the heart of his children, as he’s indwelling them, he testifies with our spirit that we are his children, it’s a “ Living “ birth, it’s a mind blowing birth.

It took no knowledge of scripture , no bible reading, for God to birth me in the Spirit, that is correct,but, when I went out and bought a Bible, there was his word that he testified to my spirit that we are his children.

I think sometimes we as believers forget that the completed Bible came centuries later after Christianity had already grown and spread enormously. It's hard to think of a time without the Bible since we've always had it. But during the crucifixion-resurrection and pentecost the first believers experienced what we now only read about. Because of this it's easy to slip into a functional deism of sorts where faith becomes academic and in a twisted sort of way we somehow use the Bible to restrict God's real, tangible presence in our lives, and forget that the whole point of the Incarnation and Christ's atoning death and resurrection and promised indwelling of the Holy Spirit is "Immanuel, God with us." It's not about reading how "God is with us," but actually experiencing "God with us" as a living, loving, tangible, reality.

So yes, God absolutely can reveal Himself to us independently of the Bible (and also through the Bible, of course! God is omnipotent and can do anything afterall!).

In fact, here's a question to all believers: would you rather read about "God with us" in the Bible or experience the God you're reading about? Fortunately for us, we don't have to choose, but can experience both. The Holy Spirit then is the same Holy Spirit now.

 

[Ritajanice]

Yes (if I understand your meaning), but doesn’t the Savior's revealing Himself during a "Road to Damascus" experience count as "learning" in the most important way?

I always refer to by birthing, like that of Paul’s.....I can certainly relate to what he must have experienced on that road to Damascus....mind blowing!!!.

 

[Ritajanice]

I think sometimes we as believers forget that the completed Bible came centuries later after Christianity had already grown and spread enormously. It's hard to think of a time without the Bible since we've always had it. But during the crucifixion-resurrection and pentecost the first believers experienced what we now only read about. Because of this it's easy to slip into a functional deism of sorts where faith becomes academic and in a twisted sort of way we somehow use the Bible to restrict God's real, tangible presence in our lives, and forget that the whole point of the Incarnation and Christ's atoning death and resurrection and promised indwelling of the Holy Spirit is "Immanuel, God with us." It's not about reading how "God is with us," but actually experiencing "God with us" as a living, loving, tangible, reality.

So yes, God absolutely can reveal Himself to us independently of the Bible (and also through the Bible, of course! God is omnipotent and can do anything afterall!).

In fact, here's a question to all believers: would you rather read about "God with us" in the Bible or experience the God you're reading about? Fortunately for us, we don't have to choose, but can experience both. The Holy Spirit then is the same Holy Spirit now.

Amen!!!..great summary..completely understood all that you say here...Praise God!

 

[Marilyn C]

Yes, this could be difficult for many.

Here is my understanding.
God does predestine His chosen to salvation and passes over the rest. He does not force others to reject Him, they reject God because they choose to. Because they choose to reject Him dores not release them from their obligation to worship and believe.

God predestined those in Christ to be conformed to His image. These are those after Christ ascended and the Father made Him head of the Body. People before that time are not able to be made like Christ, because His divine nature was not as yet available, (for Christ hadn`t been manifest on earth, die, rose and ascended to give the Holy spirit to make believers like Himself).

`Predestined to be conformed to Christ`s image,` is like people after Christ ascended, going through the door of the whosoever and then turning round and seeing on the back of the door `predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ.`

We always need to read `predestined` to what, or rather who.

No good thinking that those before Christ was manifest etc could become like Him, there was no possibility. Thus, they were not predestined to be like Christ but still able to be saved to their inheritance because of Christ`s sacrifice.

 

[Ritajanice]

Regeneration and faith happen at the same time. We may not realize we are believers instantly, and it may also take a bit before we confess this reality. And the gospel has everything to do about it. The gospel (the whole bible) is about Christ. Though we may not understand it all, there is just something about Jesus that we cannot get away from, and we finally confess to him as what he is, Lord. We don't ask him, or accept him to be our Lord, we confess him because he is Lord.

I knew I was birthed in the Spirit/ Born Again straight away ...so, I’m not understanding why believers don’t understand this straight away....that’s ok “ I” don’t have to.....that’s between them and God.

I only knew I was Born again....then I went out and bought a Bible...the Holy Spirit from day one has been my guide through his “ Living” word...I have never been taught by any pastor.....on saying that...they did teach me a lot about the word of God, so I just fibbed....I used to attend church every Sunday......then I had a bad experience in the church...I stopped going...long story...i went back after 25 yrs absence from church....attended one for 2 years...left , because imo it was so cliquey.

Starting a new one I found next Sunday...I need that Living fellowship with other believers...I need to be fed the word...that’s why I’m nearly always on here....I crave fellowship.

 

[Ritajanice]

May need a definition of 'saved'. In one respect we are saved before the foundation of the earth ... it's a done deal. On the other hand some association "saved" with being 'born again'.
My 2 cents.
Bedtime

We are Born Again and saved from eternal damnation all at the same time.....when God births us in the Spirit.

That’s my way of explaining it.imo/ belief.

 

[Ritajanice]

Because of this it's easy to slip into a functional deism of sorts where faith becomes academic and in a twisted sort of way we somehow use the Bible to restrict God's real, tangible presence in our lives, and forget that the whole point of the Incarnation and Christ's atoning death and resurrection and promised indwelling of the Holy Spirit is "Immanuel, God with us." It's not about reading how "God is with us," but actually experiencing "God with us" as a living, loving, tangible, reality

Amen!!...these words really spoke to my heart...God is Alive!!...His Spirit is Alive ....His Spirit is “ Alive” in our spirit...

Brother/ Sister....I experience God with me every single day!...he’s alive in my spirit. Praise His Holy Name!!....

Anyone can “ read” the bible as you say.....but, it’s experiencing his power in one’s heart, when we have been birthed in the spirit......of course we have to read his word and get to know him.....we do that through the power of the Holy Spirit, who leads our spirit through his word.

For without the rebirth there is no life, in reading the word of God...only their own human understanding of his word..well....there is no life in that....one must be Born Again.....imo/ belief.

 

[Ritajanice]

After reading this I must backtrack a bit on what I just said to @Eleanor or at least make clear what I meant. This is the same way I see it. If when we hear the gospel we believe it it is because we have been regenerated.

If you hear the gospel we believe it it is because we have been regenerated..

This above sounds like work based......we believe.?....we have been regenerated?.....

This is how God births us in the Spirit...he testifies with our spirit that we are his children.....” WE”have no say in the matter.

John 3:8​

“The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.”




My question to you is ....where did you hear?

I’m not talking about the intellect either...I’m talking about “ YOU” ...how can you hear the word of God?

There is only one way to know/ hear God...how is that?

One also doesn’t need any bible either..to hear God and be birthed in the Spirit ..why is that?