Issues with a doctrine(s) of grace?

[Carbon]

@Arial @Ritajanice @Eleanor

Interesting discussion going on but why is everyone getting so worked up?

Here is my take, if I am following correctly.

God has an appointed time of salvation for all His chosen ones. And at that time, the Holy Spirit regenerates the person. This person has been crucified with Christ. How this person felt about it, or what they thought about it had nothing to do with it. If our thoughts and desires affect our salvation, Paul's story would have been different. And as I believe you all agree, once this regeneration has taken place, we are new creations, we have just been a part of the first resurrection in Christ. Therefore, we new creatures are believers, it's a package deal (please excuse the expression). Since we are believers, we will eventually express this with our mouths.

Regeneration and faith happen at the same time. We may not realize we are believers instantly, and it may also take a bit before we confess this reality. And the gospel has everything to do about it. The gospel (the whole bible) is about Christ. Though we may not understand it all, there is just something about Jesus that we cannot get away from, and we finally confess to him as what he is, Lord. We don't ask him, or accept him to be our Lord, we confess him because he is Lord. .

 

[Eleanor]

@Arial @Ritajanice @Eleanor
Interesting discussion going on but why is everyone getting so worked up?
Here is my take, if I am following correctly.
God has an appointed time of salvation for all His chosen ones. And at that time, the Holy Spirit regenerates the person. This person has been crucified with Christ. How this person felt about it, or what they thought about it had nothing to do with it. If our thoughts and desires affect our salvation, Paul's story would have been different. And as I believe you all agree, once this regeneration has taken place, we are new creations, we have just been a part of the first resurrection in Christ. Therefore, we new creatures are believers, it's a package deal (please excuse the expression). Since we are believers, we will eventually express this with our mouths.
Regeneration and faith happen at the same time.

Are not regeneration and faith two different things?
Does the gospel have anything to do with sovereign regeneration by the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3-8)?
Can we even hear the gospel until we are born again, since we are spiritually dead?
Spiritually dead people don't hear spiritual things, they're dead, right?

We may not realize we are believers instantly, and it may also take a bit before we confess this reality. And the gospel has everything to do about it. The gospel (the whole bible) is about Christ. Though we may not understand it all, there is just something about Jesus that we cannot get away from, and we finally confess to him as what he is, Lord. We don't ask him, or accept him to be our Lord, we confess him because he is Lord. .

 

[Carbon]

Are not regeneration and faith two different things?

Of course. Did I give the impression they are not?

 

[Carbon]

Are not regeneration and faith two different things?
Does the gospel have anything to do with sovereign regeneration by the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3-8)?
Can we even hear the gospel until we are born again, since we are spiritually dead?
Spiritually dead people don't hear spiritual things, they're dead, right?

To me it it obvious you did not understand me.

 

[Eleanor]

Possibly that is true. But at the same time one cannot separate the new birth from faith or faith from the new birth.

1) They are not interchangeable. The former is true, the latter is not.

And do you mean in consequences, or in occurrence?

So if one is born again it is the gospel they will hear and believe, in one way or another but it has to have some content in our minds. No matter how limited that content is.

It is linking the new birth with immediate faith that is making the gospel necessary for rebirth.
However, does not the NT present the new birth as a totally sovereign act of the Holy Spirit, dependent on nothing, as unaccountable as the wind (Jn 3:3-8)?

For me the result of the new birth was something I knew that I did not know the day before. And that was that every word in the Bible was the absolute truth. Then I read them to see what they were. But I had also been told and remembered, but never believed, that Jesus is the Savior. That He died for the forgiveness of our sin. And there was an experience, though it happened in my sleep, woke me up a couple of times smiling and the most at peace and joyful I had ever been, and went back to sleep. It was as though I were being spoken to while I slept, without any language I knew, but I knew it was changing me on the inside and I loved it. It is almost as if I bore witness to the rebirth process. And I was completely a different person in many ways when I woke up. Bursting with love for one thing. A willingness to be obedient to God. And I knew, no shadow of doubt then or ever, that I had come upon what I was always looking for. The absolute, ultimate, truth.

But it was the result that the experience produced that gave validity to the experience.

That is without question and is not the point of contention.

And Wow! Absolute certainty that every word in the Bible was absolute truth. I'm not surprised to hear such.

 

[Arial]

1) They are not interchangeable. The former is true, the latter is not.

And do you mean in consequences, or in occurrence?

You must have the new birth in order to have faith but also you have faith because of the new birth.

It is linking the new birth with immediate faith that is making the gospel necessary for rebirth.
However, does not the NT present the new birth as a totally sovereign act of the Holy Spirit, dependent on nothing, as unaccountable as the wind (Jn 3:3-8)?

I am not linking the new birth with immediate faith as I cannot see into the mind or the hidden things of God. But faith is still an integral

necessary and guaranteed result of the new birth. That is all I am saying.Faith does not produce the new birth, the new birth produces faith.

That is without question and is not the point of contention.

It is not a point of contention between you and me but it was the confusion I had with what @Ritajanice was saying. She said she was born again when Jesus popped into her head. That it did not take any knowledge or scripture. That is a very difficult thing for me to understand what she means without clarification. All I was ever trying to do was get clarification and whenever I try to get clarification she gets offended and angry.

And Wow! Absolute certainty that every word in the Bible was absolute truth. I'm not surprised to hear such.

I can't tell if that is sarcasm or not.

 

[Arial]

Regeneration and faith happen at the same time. We may not realize we are believers instantly, and it may also take a bit before we confess this reality. And the gospel has everything to do about it. The gospel (the whole bible) is about Christ. Though we may not understand it all, there is just something about Jesus that we cannot get away from, and we finally confess to him as what he is, Lord. We don't ask him, or accept him to be our Lord, we confess him because he is Lord. .

After reading this I must backtrack a bit on what I just said to @Eleanor or at least make clear what I meant. This is the same way I see it. If when we hear the gospel we believe it it is because we have been regenerated.

 

[Eleanor]

You must have the new birth in order to have faith but also you have faith because of the new birth.
I am not linking the new birth with immediate faith as I cannot see into the mind or the hidden things of God. But faith is still an integral
necessary and guaranteed result of the new birth. That is all I am saying.Faith does not produce the new birth, the new birth produces faith.
It is not a point of contention between you and me but it was the confusion I had with what @Ritajanice was saying. She said she was born again when Jesus popped into her head. That it did not take any knowledge or scripture. That is a very difficult thing for me to understand what she means without clarification. All I was ever trying to do was get clarification and whenever I try to get clarification she gets offended and angry.
I can't tell if that is sarcasm or not.

Sorry, not at all, just a confirmation of my observation.

 

[Eleanor]

After reading this I must backtrack a bit on what I just said to @Eleanor or at least make clear what I meant. This is the same way I see it. If when we hear the gospel we believe it it is because we have been regenerated.

Of course, but it is the concurrence that I am questioning.

Making them concurrent requires an object of faith be present, for there is no faith without an object, thereby limiting the sovereignty of the Holy Spirit to its occurrence only when there is an object of faith.

I understand the sovereign rebirth by the Holy Spirit to be as unaccountable as the wind.

 

[prism]

What part exactly is unclear?

God predestines some, and then turns around and judges those weren't predestined.
i'm not saying I disagree, I just have a difficult time with that truth.

 

[prism]

There is a lot there. I will assume you are referring to the sovereignty of God in vv. 22-23.

Let me start by acknowledging this will not be in agreement with the "God is love" hermeneutic for all Scripture.
For I have some "uncomfortable" conclusions.
And before I present them, I'll share how I deal with them:

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord.
As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts."

And now for the discomfort of v.23:
1) Sin shows forth God's justice, wrath and judgment, as well as showing forth his power in his judging, conquering, and saving from sin.
Divine love is made more striking when it shines in the setting of wrath and judgment; i.e., God's justice is a foil for displaying the riches of his mercy.

2) The glory of God's justice through the glory of his Son is more important that the salvation of all men, for the glory of his mercy is in the salvation of some men.

God's answer to our objections:

I am all-wise and all-just (Isa 40:13-14, Ps 89:14).
I do what is best and what is right (Dt 32:4, Ps 119:68, Da 4:37).
TRUST ME, and lean not on your own understanding (Pr 3:5).

The sovereignty of God requires our trust, not our understanding.


.

Agreed, still I struggle, see #330 above

 

[Arial]

Of course, but it is the concurrence that I am questioning.

Making them concurrent requires an object of faith be present, for there is no faith without an object, thereby limiting the sovereignty of the Holy Spirit to its occurrence only when there is an object of faith.

I understand the sovereign rebirth by the Holy Spirit to be as unaccountable as the wind.

Well it is as unaccountable as the wind from our perspective. But the purpose of the new birth is for faith. If we are reborn when we hear the of the object where our faith is to be placed (Jesus and His person and work)we believe it. The timing is up to God whether the rebirth is what causes us to look and find or happens simultaneously with the hearing or to leads to the hearing. Anything is possible with God but the only thing we can say for sure, because that is all He tells us, is that faith comes as a result of the new birth and the faith is objective to some degree. With whatever we do know about Jesus but we must know something and learn the rest.

We are really debating something that neither one of us disagrees with.

 

[Eleanor]

To me it it obvious you did not understand me.

Well, there is another way to view the sovereignty of the Holy Spirit in regeneration that is compatible with regeneration and faith occurring at the same time.
And that is if his sovereignty is referring to the gospel being heard but him regenerating only some and not all when they hear it, that it is referring to his sovereignty at the time of hearing the gospel.
That sounds right.

 

[Eleanor]

God predestines some, and then turns around and judges those weren't predestined.
i'm not saying I disagree, I just have a difficult time with that truth.

Well, actually all are condemned by Adam's sin (Ro 5:18) and by nature (with which we are born) objects of God's wrath (Eph 2:3).

So the situation is not that he judges those who are not predestined.
The situation is that all are born condemned and judged by Adam's sin, and God saves some out of that condemnation and judgment.

 

[fastfredy0]

Why would it be a prelude and not regeneration itself?

Good point.

Regeneration depends on nothing. . .nada. . .zip. . .zilch.

Technically, it depends on God's choice.

 

[fastfredy0]

An issue I've had, and Paul brings it up in Rom 9 and (is tied in with limited atonement)...

Romans 9:19
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Or, 'how does God fairly judge those whom He has passed over in election?'
Paul continues...

Romans 9:20-23
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? [21] Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? [22] What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: [23] And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

I'm still not clear on this aspect.

Perhaps God is the potter. Perhaps every aspect of your being is determined by God; nothing is determined independent of God. So it is not what you've done independent of God that is judged and dealt with, it is God creation to do with as He wishes including determining your entire life and how He will deal with his creation which He decided to do in eternity past.

• Acts 17:28 for “‘In him we live and move and have our being
• Hebrews 1:3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power

IMO

 

[fastfredy0]

2) The glory of God's justice through the glory of his Son is more important that the salvation of all men, for the glory of his mercy is in the salvation of some men.

Wow .. I LOVE IT..

For I have some "uncomfortable" conclusions.

Didn't make me uncomfortable.

The glory of God, not the happiness of the creature, is the true theodicy of sin. William G.T. Shedd

 

[atpollard]

Why would it be a prelude and not regeneration itself?

It bothers @fastfredy0 that I viewed Jesus, Santa and the Easter Bunny as equally “real” at the moment that I “encountered” God … so it begs the question of the possibility of a “Road to Damascus” salvation knowing NOTHING about Jesus and his Gospel except a contemptuous myth from TV cartoons as a child.

Is it possible to BE SAVED, and then learn about the SAVIOR?

 

[fastfredy0]

Is it possible to BE SAVED, and then learn about the SAVIOR?

True enough ... those who are saved were saved before the foundation of the earth ...
but it is not possible to be regenerated (born again) and no nothing of Christ.

oh, and welcome to the forum ... glad to see you

 

[atpollard]

God predestines some, and then turns around and judges those weren't predestined.
i'm not saying I disagree, I just have a difficult time with that truth.

I have given this more than a little attention. Try this vantage point:

• God created Adam sinless, they should have obeyed and all would be saved.
• God created a LAW to guide men to obedience and ‘cover over’ their sins until the savior came. They should have followed the plan and everyone COULD have been saved. Men rejected salvation a second time.
• God came HIMSELF and died that “whosoever believes” would be saved. Anyone was physically capable of meeting the new requirement (God set the bar so low). EVERYONE WITHOUT EXCEPTION, chose sin over God and rejected salvation for a THIRD time.
• Justice and Glory requires that everyone without exception SHOULD be judged, condemned and damned for “rejecting so great a salvation”. God’s Love and Mercy will not allow such an outcome to stand and tarnish His glory (it is NOT about us). God lives in the ETERNAL NOW (outside time), so before the foundation of the world, God purposed to save some … foreknow, predestine, call, justify, glorify … and the Father DREW them to the Son and the Son GAVE them eternal life and the Hole Spirit indwelt them ( marking them as God’s chosen Children).

There is no INJUSTICE, there is only JUSTICE and MERCY and both are for the GLORY of God.
[I can only speak for me … there are FEW human beings LESS deserving of His mercy than I am.]