Issues with a doctrine(s) of grace?

[Arial]

You said to me that the scripture I posted does not result in the rebirth..that is what you said..

No I didn't. Produce the quote if you must. but you and I need to stop "talking" to each other. Cool down. Don't leave.

 

[fastfredy0]

No I didn't. Produce the quote if you must. but you and I need to stop "talking" to each other. Cool down. Don't leave.

@Ritajanice
Yes ... I assign a 2 hr time out in which you two leave each other alone (not that I have more authority than a hamster)
... and Ritajanice, you can't leave as you're the only one the semi appreciates my questionable sense of humor

 

[Ritajanice]

The knowledge you did have to begin to know Him was what constitutes your faith.

For to know Jesus died on the Cross for your sins?

Is? .. "Knowledge!"
Our journey into knowing the Mind of Christ began with having "simple knowledge."

But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. ​

To him be glory both now and forever! Amen." 2 Peter 318​

​

grace and peace ... (gravy and peas).....

Amen!...Love this!!

 

[Ritajanice]

@Ritajanice

... and Ritajanice, you can't leave as you're the only one the semi appreciates my questionable sense of humor

@fastfredy0 ........I do chuckle at most of your posts...I love our disagreements as well...

 

[Eleanor]

The name? Or who He is? And which comes first, the name or the new birth? You are a bit katywampus on the new birth and I have tried to gently steer you to the proper lens, and you just said you don't understand, don't want to understand, and got upset. No one knows everything but everyone knows some things. How are we ever to learn what we don't yet know if we don't listen and don't want to know?

Everyone can and does say He testified to my heart. Sometimes that is true and sometimes it isn't. On its own it really has no meaning to another person. It is quoting scripture.

I am not doubting you and I am certainly not trying to discourage you. I am only trying to help you grow in those areas where I have grown after 40 plus years, and you have yet to climb some hills. But never mind. I don't want to upset you which it seems to do.

The new birth has nothing to do with anything. It is a sovereign act of the Holy Spirit, as unaccountable as the wind (Jn 3:3-8).
We have no more to do with our spiritual birth than we do with our physical birth.

It seems you are talking about salvation based on faith which requires knowledge, while Rita is talking about the new birth which requires nothing, absolutely nothing, because it is a heart (disposition) matter, not a head matter.

 

[fastfredy0]

 

[Eleanor]

Atta' boy!

 

[Eleanor]

Agreed ... but some unique experience might be part of the re-birthing experience; not that I am talking from experience.
If I had a choice I would like to have a 'meet Jesus moment' as a prelude/"part of" regeneration. @atpollard had such an experience. It's fascinating. I believe him and I like to think I'm not easily taken in in such matters.

Why would it be a prelude and not regeneration itself?

Regeneration depends on nothing. . .nada. . .zip. . .zilch.

 

[Eleanor]

Re: How do you know it is the Holy Spirit and not just you thinking?


Hmmmm ...
Premise 1: Person has never had a, we'll call it ... Meeting with God
Premise 2: Person has Meeting with God
Premise 3: Person's life changes or extremely unlikely thing you were told occurs (lotto ticket for weird example)
Conclusion: You probably met God ???? ... like 95% ? what percent do you say????

If there were both ("changes" meaning faith and obedience), I say 100%.

 

[Ritajanice]

Everyone can and does say He testified to my heart. Sometimes that is true and sometimes it isn't. On its own it really has no meaning to another person. It is quoting scripture.

Oh it does on it’s own!!....

This is the Living Powerful word of God!....just making my point..I won’t engage with you again...

Heirs with Christ
…15For you did not receive a spirit of slavery that returns you to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16The Spirit Himself testifies withour spirit that we are God’s children. 17And if we are children, then we are heirs: heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ—if indeed we suffer with Him, so that we may also be glorified with Him.…

And.

John 3:8​

“The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.”

Hebrews 4:12

King James Version

​

12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

I can’t promise though,...But I will abide by @fastfredy0 2 hour rule..

 

[Eleanor]

I prefer a hug myself.

You got it!

That was a response to the apostles' knowledge as a result of being with Jesus.

 

[prism]

An issue I've had, and Paul brings it up in Rom 9 and (is tied in with limited atonement)...

Romans 9:19
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Or, 'how does God fairly judge those whom He has passed over in election?'
Paul continues...

Romans 9:20-23
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? [21] Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? [22] What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: [23] And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

I'm still not clear on this aspect.

 

[Ritajanice]

Sorry to disappoint.....

 

[Ritajanice]

Why would it be a prelude and not regeneration itself?

Regeneration depends on nothing. . .nada. . .zip. . .zilch.

Depends on God?

 

[Arial]

The new birth has nothing to do with anything. It is a sovereign act of the Holy Spirit, as unaccountable as the wind (Jn 3:3-8).
We have no more to do with our spiritual birth than we do with our physical birth.

It seems you are talking about salvation based on faith which requires knowledge, while Rita is talking about the new birth which requires nothing, absolutely nothing, because it is a heart (disposition) matter, not a head matter.

Possibly that is true. But at the same time one cannot separate the new birth from faith or faith from the new birth. So if one is born again it is the gospel they will hear and believe, in one way or another but it has to have some content in our minds. No matter how limited that content is.

For me the result of the new birth was something I knew that I did not know the day before. And that was that every word in the Bible was the absolute truth. Then I read them to see what they were. But I had also been told and remembered, but never believed, that Jesus is the Savior. That He died for the forgiveness of our sin. And there was an experience, though it happened in my sleep, woke me up a couple of times smiling and the most at peace and joyful I had ever been, and went back to sleep. It was as though I were being spoken to while I slept, without any language I knew, but I knew it was changing me on the inside and I loved it. It is almost as if I bore witness to the rebirth process. And I was completely a different person in many ways when I woke up. Bursting with love for one thing. A willingness to be obedient to God. And I knew, no shadow of doubt then or ever, that I had come upon what I was always looking for. The absolute, ultimate, truth.

But it was the result that the experience produced that gave validity to the experience.

 

[Ritajanice]

The new birth has nothing to do with anything. It is a sovereign act of the Holy Spirit, as unaccountable as the wind (Jn 3:3-8).
We have no more to do with our spiritual birth than we do with our physical birth.

It seems you are talking about salvation based on faith which requires knowledge, while Rita is talking about the new birth which requires nothing, absolutely nothing, because it is a heart (disposition) matter, not a head matter.

That’s it you’ve nailed it!!....

Amen!!....all about the heart...that’s how we know we have been birthed...but I won’t bore you again with the details... or @fastfredy0 will be on to me....

 

[Arial]

Oh it does on it’s own!!....

Not to OTHER people is what I said.

 

[Carbon]

An issue I've had, and Paul brings it up in Rom 9 and (is tied in with limited atonement)...

Romans 9:19
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Or, 'how does God fairly judge those whom He has passed over in election?'
Paul continues...

Romans 9:20-23
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? [21] Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? [22] What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: [23] And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

I'm still not clear on this aspect.

What part exactly is unclear?

 

[GeneZ]

I prefer a hug myself.

In your resurrection body to Hug the Word of God would be hugging yourself...

For we will have a body just like The Word of God.

 

[Eleanor]

An issue I've had, and Paul brings it up in Rom 9 and (is tied in with limited atonement)...
Romans 9:19
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Or, 'how does God fairly judge those whom He has passed over in election?'
Paul continues...

Romans 9:20-23
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? [21] Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? [22] What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: [23] And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

I'm still not clear on this aspect.

There is a lot there. I will assume you are referring to the sovereignty of God in vv. 22-23.

Let me start by acknowledging this will not be in agreement with the "God is love" hermeneutic for all Scripture.
For I have some "uncomfortable" conclusions.
And before I present them, I'll share how I deal with them:

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord.
As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts."

And now for the discomfort of v.23:
1) Sin shows forth God's justice, wrath and judgment, as well as showing forth his power in his judging, conquering, and saving from sin.
Divine love is made more striking when it shines in the setting of wrath and judgment; i.e., God's justice is a foil for displaying the riches of his mercy.

2) The glory of God's justice through the glory of his Son is more important that the salvation of all men, for the glory of his mercy is in the salvation of some men.

God's answer to our objections:

I am all-wise and all-just (Isa 40:13-14, Ps 89:14).
I do what is best and what is right (Dt 32:4, Ps 119:68, Da 4:37).
TRUST ME, and lean not on your own understanding (Pr 3:5).

The sovereignty of God requires our trust, not our understanding.


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