Is There a Contradiction?

[CrowCross]

Satan and his angels will be destroyed, thus are not immortal. No created being is immortal unless God grants it to them. There is no ghost like being within a mortal.

What do you mean by destroyed? Captured and locked up in hell forever? Annihilated into nonexistence?

 

[Lees]

God promised that to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob personally, and none of them ever possessed a foot of ground there (Ac 7:5).

See post #153.

Yes, I know. You have already said that. And I have answered that. See post #(159). When you say 'personally', are you saying it was only to Abraham and Isaac and Jacob?

(Deut. 30:1-5) "And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, And shalt return unto the LORD thy God...That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity...And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it...."

(Gen. 28:13) "And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed."

(Gen. 35:12) "And the land which I gave Abraham and Isaac, to thee I will give it, and to thy seed after thee will I give the land."

(Ex. 6:3-4) "And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob...And I have also established my covenant with them, to give them the land of Canaan, the land of their pilgrimage, wherein they were strangers."

(Ex. 6:8) "And I will bring you in unto the land, concerning the which I did swear to give it to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob: and I will give it you for an heritage: I am the LORD."

(Ex. 33:1) "And the LORD said unto Moses, Depart, and go up hence, thou and the people which thou hast brought up out of the land of Egypt, unto the land which I sware unto Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, saying Unto thy seed will I give it."

(Joshua 1:1-2) "Now after the death of Moses...the LORD spake unto Joshua....Moses my servant is dead; now therefore arise, go over this Jordan, thou and all this people unto the land which I do give to them, even the children of Israel."

Etc. etc. etc. Do I need to present more?

Lees

 

[Eleanor]

Yes, I know. You have already said that. And I have answered that. See post #(159). When you say 'personally', are you saying it was only to Abraham and Isaac and Jacob?

It was to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, as well as their descendants.

But those patriarchs did not live to see the earthly land.

 

[Lees]

It was to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, as well as their descendants.

But those patriarchs did not live to see the earthly land.

Yes, I know, as I said before. But that doesn't matter. It doesn't annul the promise of the land. The promise of the land was to Abraham as an eternal and everlasting promise, sworn by God Himself. God even told him he would not see it in his life time. (Gen. 15:15-16) "And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age. But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again for the iniquity of the Ammorites is not yet full."

So, what are you trying to say? I have shown you that the land was an eternal and everlasting promise to Abraham and his descendants. I have shown you that it doesn't matter if Abraham ever set foot on it. He will one day because the promise is eternal.

You certainly don't have to agree with me. I suspect your method of interpreting the Bible is different than mine. And that's fine. But I believe I have supported my beliefs with Scripture.

Lees

 

[Carbon]

This is my first post so, hello to all.

Hello and welome

 

[Carbon]

Do you believe in the Trinity —Do you believe that Jesus Christ was God before he was conceived, and after?

JW's do not believe in the Trinity.

 

[Viking123]

Do you believe in the Trinity —Do you believe that Jesus Christ was God before he was conceived, and after?

Jesus is the firstborn of all creation-Col 1:15-16--He is Gods image. All creation occurred at the beginning.

 

[Viking123]

You have only said that the chariot event was in 850. You have not shown me that it was. Give evidence. Lacking historical evidence, we can go no farther than what the Bible says.

Jehoram received a letter from Elijah. This the Bible says.
Since it is illogical to think that Elijah had already been taken up to heaven when he wrote and sent that letter, logic tells us he had not been taken to heaven when he wrote the letter.

What we don't do is make up a fantastical story that makes the Bible tell lies and say he wasn't taken to heaven but to some other part of the earth.

Elijah did not go to heaven. The NT is clear--NO MAN entered heaven before Jesus ascension.

 

[Viking123]

Yours is not orthodox Christianity.

No mine is real.

 

[Viking123]

What do you mean by destroyed? Captured and locked up in hell forever? Annihilated into nonexistence?

The lake of fire= the second death--there is no life in death. Everything thrown in there is destroyed forever.

 

[CrowCross]

The lake of fire= the second death--there is no life in death. Everything thrown in there is destroyed forever.

If you go up about 7 lines in the bible to verse 10 you will read...There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Now, destroyed can have several meanings...I trust you don't mean annihilation. You know like..PUFF...gone into non-existance but destroyed as like when someone takes a baseball bat to a windshield of a car. After all if destroyed means annihilation and you don't exist then you can't be tormented day and night forever. Right????

What does destroyed forever mean???

 

[CrowCross]

Elijah did not go to heaven. The NT is clear--NO MAN entered heaven before Jesus ascension.

Lets start here...

The OT says....And as they still went on and talked, behold, chariots of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

Do you have a better word to translate the Hebrew word.... 8064. shamayim???

 

[Lees]

Hello and welome

Thanks.

Lees

 

[Eleanor]

Yes, I know, as I said before. But that doesn't matter. It doesn't annul the promise of the land. The promise of the land was to Abraham as an eternal and everlasting promise,

Precisely. . .the heavenly land.

sworn by God Himself. God even told him he would not see it in his life time. (Gen. 15:15-16) "And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age. But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again for the iniquity of the Ammorites is not yet full.

Where is it said there that Abraham would see the earthly land of Canaan?

Abraham has already set foot on that which is the promise of eternal Canaan.

 

[Eleanor]

Yes, I know, as I said before. But that doesn't matter. It doesn't annul the promise of the land. The promise of the land was to Abraham as an eternal and everlasting promise, sworn by God Himself. God even told him he would not see it in his life time. (Gen. 15:15-16) "And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age. But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again for the iniquity of the Ammorites is not yet full."

So, what are you trying to say?

In the light of Heb 11, the patriarchs were not promised earthly land forever, they were promised heavenly land forever (Heb 11:13-16).
That "country of their own" was the better heavenly country (Heb 11:14), not the earthly country.

I have shown you that the land was an eternal and everlasting promise to Abraham and his descendants. I have shown you that it doesn't matter if Abraham ever set foot on it. He will one day because the promise is eternal.

You certainly don't have to agree with me. I suspect your method of interpreting the Bible is different than mine. And that's fine. But I believe I have supported my beliefs with Scripture.

Lees

 

[Josheb]

okey dokey.

Which kind of surprised me that they didn't catch the "mistake" but were quickly misled,

Never happened.

What did happen with some, is that a focus was placed on one side, or way of answering the question, and not whole scripture.

perhaps distracted, by the mention of Enoch as a possible contradiction to men only dying once, to be resolved.

That is not a "distraction." It is the whole truth of God's word. The answer lies in the diversity of definitions scripture provides, all of which conspire to a single end or conclusion.

It only got worse because the OP went immediately off track speculation about where Enoch and Elijah went. But---that is my opinion, which I am entitled to. Not a subject for further discussion.

It demonstrably went off track when the thread wasn't closed at the point its purpose had been reached. That is my opinion, to which I am entitled, and not a subject for further discussion.

 

[Viking123]

If you go up about 7 lines in the bible to verse 10 you will read...There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Now, destroyed can have several meanings...I trust you don't mean annihilation. You know like..PUFF...gone into non-existance but destroyed as like when someone takes a baseball bat to a windshield of a car. After all if destroyed means annihilation and you don't exist then you can't be tormented day and night forever. Right????

What does destroyed forever mean???

Symbolism.= As each new day dawns in Gods kingdom, those destroyed miss each day, miss each day of Gods love, it never ends. They traded 70-100 years of an unrepented sinful life and will miss out on trillions x trillions x trillions, etc,etc of never ending years= never sick, not aging like now, never without, always at peace and harmony, no fear, no death, etc-likened to be an eternal suffering. What a lousy trade they made.

 

[Viking123]

Lets start here...

The OT says....And as they still went on and talked, behold, chariots of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

Do you have a better word to translate the Hebrew word.... 8064. shamayim???

Gen 1:1-God created the heavens--see the s= 1) Gods dwelling place-2) outer space-3) our atmosphere. Elijah went through our atmosphere.
The chariot event occurred in 850 bce--The letter Elijah wrote was to the king( Jehoram) who became king in 849 bce to 841 bce-- thus at minimum wrote that letter 1 year after the chariot event.= From another part of the Earth.

 

[CrowCross]

Symbolism.= As each new day dawns in Gods kingdom, those destroyed miss each day, miss each day of Gods love, it never ends. They traded 70-100 years of an unrepented sinful life and will miss out on trillions x trillions x trillions, etc,etc of never ending years= never sick, not aging like now, never without, always at peace and harmony, no fear, no death, etc-likened to be an eternal suffering. What a lousy trade they made.

Yes, their separation from God does show they made a lousy choice.

 

[CrowCross]

Gen 1:1-God created the heavens--see the s= 1) Gods dwelling place-2) outer space-3) our atmosphere. Elijah went through our atmosphere.
The chariot event occurred in 850 bce--The letter Elijah wrote was to the king( Jehoram) who became king in 849 bce to 841 bce-- thus at minimum wrote that letter 1 year after the chariot event.= From another part of the Earth.

Do you have a reference for that?