Is There a Contradiction?

[Arial]

That is not a "distraction." It is the whole truth of God's word. The answer lies in the diversity of definitions scripture provides, all of which conspire to a single end or conclusion.

It distracted posters from the point.

It demonstrably went off track when the thread wasn't closed at the point its purpose had been reached. That is my opinion, to which I am entitled, and not a subject for further discussion.

So once again, admin is to blame? Just for the record, if people are posting in an OP, you do not get to decide they should stop doing so. Besides, you continued to post in it too and still are.

 

[Lees]

Precisely. . .the heavenly land.

Where is it said there that Abraham would see the earthly land of Canaan?

Abraham has already set foot on that which is the promise of eternal Canaan.

(Gen. 12:1) "...unto a land that I will shew thee"

(Gen. 13:14-15) "And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever."

Lees

 

[Lees]

In the light of Heb 11, the patriarchs were not promised earthly land forever, they were promised heavenly land forever (Heb 11:13-16).
That "country of their own" was the better heavenly country (Heb 11:14), not the earthly country.

What does (Matt. 6:10) mean? "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven."

Let me also ask, When God first created the earth, was it part of heaven?

When God creates the New Heaven and New Earth, will the earth be part of heaven?

Lees

 

[Mr GLee]

I would offer.

God building a city as a family

Land throughout the Bible is used as a demonym in parables. People known by places

Like Chrisitan the new name the father named the bride. . Meaning residence, the city of Christ, named after the husband or called Zion the New Jerusalem, the city of bread

Comparing the things seen the temporal historical to the eternal unseen. In this case Canna called the everlasting not in respect to this creation corrupted dying creation

Genesis 17:8And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed (Christ) after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger( Ambassador) all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

Isaiah 1:27 Zion (everlasting land )shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness

Below the word forever it speaks of this creation, forever until the last day under the Sun . Ruth a Moabite did enter. Forever different than everlasting . Satan would make it all one in the same therefore take away the spiritual understanding/faith.

Deuteronomy 23:3 An Ammonite or Moabite shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord; even to their tenth generation shall they not enter into the congregation of the Lord for ever:

Exodus 12:14 And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the Lord throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever.

It will not be a memorial in the new heavens and earth nothing will be remembered as a new creation

In that way the temporal historical (forever) must be compared or mixed as a parable to the unseen eternal thing or no gospel rest, He has freely given believers a valuable tool needed to rightly divide the parables

2 Corinthians 4:1818 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

 

[Josheb]

It distracted posters from the point.

So once again, admin is to blame? Just for the record, if people are posting in an OP, you do not get to decide they should stop doing so. Besides, you continued to post in it too and still are.

Relevance? Incorrect on every point and way off-topic.

 

[Eleanor]

(Gen. 12:1) "...unto a land that I will shew thee"

(Gen. 13:14-15) "And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever."

Lees

And yet God gave him no inheritance there, not even a foot of ground (Ac 7:5). So God did not keep his promise to Abraham, as well as to Isaac and Jacob?

It is only in the light of Heb 11:8-16 that we learn that God did keep is promise of Canaan forever to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, personally, even though they never possessed Canaan (Heb 11: 13, 39); because the promise of Canaan forever was a promise of eternal life in the heavenly land (Heb 11:10), not a promise of eternal earthly land (Heb 11:9). That country of their own (Heb 11:14), in contrast to Canaan, the country not their own (Ge 15:13), that better country, in contrast to the country of three famines (Ge 12:10, 26:1, 41:54), that country of hope and promise was the heavenly country (Heb 11:16), not Canaan.
In the light of Heb 11:8-16, the eternal title (Ge 13:15, 17:8) was to heavenly land (Heb 11:10:-6), not to earthly land.

 

[Arial]

Relevance? Incorrect on every point and way off-topic.

It was relevant to your post Josheb. Which was off topic, irrelevant, and nothing but self defense.




END OF DISCUSSION!!!!!

 

[makesends]

Relevance? Incorrect on every point and way off-topic.

How is every point being incorrect relevant to the topic?

 

[Lees]

And yet God gave him no inheritance there, not even a foot of ground (Ac 7:5). So God did not keep his promise to Abraham, as well as to Isaac and Jacob?

It is only in the light of Heb 11:8-16 that we learn that God did keep is promise of Canaan forever to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, personally, even though they never possessed Canaan (Heb 11: 13, 39); because the promise of Canaan forever was a promise of eternal life in the heavenly land (Heb 11:10), not a promise of eternal earthly land (Heb 11:9). That country of their own (Heb 11:14), in contrast to Canaan, the country not their own (Ge 15:13), that better country, in contrast to the country of three famines (Ge 12:10, 26:1, 41:54), that country of hope and promise was the heavenly country (Heb 11:16), not Canaan.
In the light of Heb 11:8-16, the eternal title (Ge 13:15, 17:8) was to heavenly land (Heb 11:10:-6), not to earthly land.

Yes, I know, you have said that. As I said already, Abraham knew he would not inherit the land in his lifetime. God told him such. (Gen. 15:15-16) "And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age. But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full."

And at that same time God outlined the boundaries of that land. (Gen. 15:18-21) "In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates: The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites, And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims, And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites."

Are those boundaries earthly boundaries? Are those rivers earthly rivers? Was that land possessed by the various peoples listed? Did God make a covenant with Abram concerning the boundaries of the land he and his seed would inherit?

As to your question: did God not keep his promise to Abraham, as well as to Isaac, and Jacob? Of course God will keep His promise. I expect Him to, just as they expected Him to. (Heb. 11:13) "These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth."

And, concerning (Heb. 11:16), "But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly:" That doesn't indicate a fulfillment of their desire. In fact Paul is writing many many years after Abram, Isaac, and Jacob. Yet he says, 'but now they desire'. Just because they died and are now in Heaven doesn't mean their desire for a heavenly country has been met.

That desire won't be met till the earthly land described in (Gen. 15:18-21) is given and experienced by them for an inheritance. It will be earthly and heavenly because it's origin will be from God, from Heaven. "Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth as it is in heaven." (Matt. 6:10)

Any thing short of that, and God will have broken His Word. And that won't happen.

Lees

 

[Eleanor]

Yes, I know, you have said that. As I said already, Abraham knew he would not inherit the land in his lifetime. God told him such. (Gen. 15:15-16) "And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age. But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full."
And at that same time God outlined the boundaries of that land. (Gen. 15:18-21) "In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates: The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites, And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims, And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites."
Are those boundaries earthly boundaries? Are those rivers earthly rivers? Was that land possessed by the various peoples listed? Did God make a covenant with Abram concerning the boundaries of the land he and his seed would inherit?

As to your question: did God not keep his promise to Abraham, as well as to Isaac, and Jacob? Of course God will keep His promise. I expect Him to, just as they expected Him to. (Heb. 11:13) "These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth."

And, concerning (Heb. 11:16), "But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly:" That doesn't indicate a fulfillment of their desire. In fact Paul is writing many many years after Abram, Isaac, and Jacob. Yet he says, 'but now they desire'. Just because they died and are now in Heaven doesn't mean their desire for a heavenly country has been met.

That desire won't be met till the earthly land described in (Gen. 15:18-21) is given and experienced by them for an inheritance. It will be earthly and heavenly because it's origin will be from God, from Heaven. "Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth as it is in heaven." (Matt. 6:10)

Any thing short of that, and God will have broken His Word. And that won't happen.

Lees

In the light of Heb 11:8-16, the eternal title (Ge 13:15, 17:8) was to heavenly land (Heb 11:10-16), not to earthly land.

 

[Lees]

In the light of Heb 11:8-16, the eternal title (Ge 13:15, 17:8) was to heavenly land (Heb 11:10-16), not to earthly land.

I have answered all your questions to me. Yet you constantly refuse to answer mine.

I have explained how your position doesn't work with Scripture. Yet you ignore what I said instead of addressing it. You simply go back to your mantra as if you saying it makes it so. But, it doesn't.

So go back to my posts and answer the questions I submitted to you. Start with these. What does (Matt. 6:10) mean? "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven." When God created the earth, was it part of heaven? In the New heaven and the new earth, will the earth be part of heaven?

Then go back to my last post, #(189) and answer all the questions I asked of you concerning (Gen. 15:18-21).

Also, I explained that (Heb. 11:16) does not indicate that just because Abram, Isaac, and Jacob died that they inherited the heavenly country. For they at this time still desire a heavenly country. "But now they desire a better country". Now being many many years after they have died.

In other words, your mantra and ignoring proves your position untenable.

Lees

 

[Eleanor]

I have answered all your questions to me. Yet you constantly refuse to answer mine.
I have explained how your position doesn't work with Scripture. Yet you ignore what I said instead of addressing it. You simply go back to your mantra as if you saying it makes it so. But, it doesn't.
So go back to my posts and answer the questions I submitted to you. Start with these. What does (Matt. 6:10) mean? "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven." When God created the earth, was it part of heaven? In the New heaven and the new earth, will the earth be part of heaven?
Then go back to my last post, #(189) and answer all the questions I asked of you concerning (Gen. 15:18-21).

Also, I explained that (Heb. 11:16) does not indicate that just because Abram, Isaac, and Jacob died that they inherited the heavenly country. For they at this time still desire a heavenly country. "But now they desire a better country". Now being many many years after they have died.

In other words, your mantra and ignoring proves your position untenable.

Lees

In the light of Heb 11:8-16, the eternal title (Ge 13:15, 17:8) was to heavenly land (Heb 11:10-16), not to earthly land.

You have not directly addressed these Scriptures.

 

[Josheb]

It was relevant to your post Josheb. Which was off topic, irrelevant, and nothing but self defense.


END OF DISCUSSION!!!!!

Didn't answer my questions.

 

[Josheb]

How is every point being incorrect relevant to the topic?

Think about it.


If the topic is "Is chocolate delicious?" and someone states, "Chocolate is made from juju berries," and then another poster responds, "That is incorrect," that entire conversation is on topic. If, on the other hand, the topic is, "Is chocolate delicious," and someone posts, "Potatoes with arsenic and cyanide helps build strong muscles that will help you live longer," then not only is that off topic and factually incorrect, then it is completely appropriate to say so.... or ask "Relevance?" providing the other person the opportunity to explain how what seems self-evidently irrelevant might not be.

That's how.

I could explain how the post in question is off topic and factually incorrect, but that would be off topic and furthering the already existing problem. This op is about the seeming contradiction between two selectively used statements about Enoch found in scripture and the later stated purpose was to engage in a little light-hearted speculation rather than the more earnest and serious discussion so often present in most other threads. Everyone agreed there is no contradiction, and the intended purpose of the op was served.

 

[Lees]

In the light of Heb 11:8-16, the eternal title (Ge 13:15, 17:8) was to heavenly land (Heb 11:10-16), not to earthly land.

You have not directly addressed these Scriptures.

I certainly have addressed them. See post #(189). Are you going to answer my questions or continue to ignore them? See post #(191).

Lees

 

[Eleanor]

Yes, I know, you have said that. As I said already, Abraham knew he would not inherit the land in his lifetime. God told him such. (Gen. 15:15-16) "And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age. But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full."
And at that same time God outlined the boundaries of that land. (Gen. 15:18-21) "In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates: The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites, And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims, And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites."
Are those boundaries earthly boundaries? Are those rivers earthly rivers? Was that land possessed by the various peoples listed? Did God make a covenant with Abram concerning the boundaries of the land he and his seed would inherit?

As to your question: did God not keep his promise to Abraham, as well as to Isaac, and Jacob? Of course God will keep His promise. I expect Him to, just as they expected Him to. (Heb. 11:13) "These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth."
And, concerning (Heb. 11:16), "But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly:" That doesn't indicate a fulfillment of their desire. In fact Paul is writing many many years after Abram, Isaac, and Jacob. Yet he says, 'but now they desire'. Just because they died and are now in Heaven doesn't mean their desire for a heavenly country has been met.
That desire won't be met till the earthly land described in (Gen. 15:18-21) is given and experienced by them for an inheritance. It will be earthly and heavenly because it's origin will be from God, from Heaven.

Not according to NT apostolic teaching. . .

We see in the light of the NT Heb 11:13c-16 that what the patriarchs said (Ge 23:4, 28:4, 47:9; cf Lev 25:23, Dt 26:5)
showed that their hope in God's promise of an "everlasting possession" (Ge 17:8, 48:4) was
not a hope in earthly land they could see (Heb 11:9-10), but a hope in heavenly land they could not see (Heb 11:1-2, 10, 16).
For the patriarchs lived in the promised land as strangers in a foreign country, not possessing on earth the promised eternal inheritance ("everlasting possession," Heb 11:9), just as all believers live on earth as strangers in a foreign country, not yet possessing the same promised eternal inheritance of the heavenly city (Heb 11:16).

But although the patriarchs never possessed the earthly land, which was a type, they did possess the realities which the type signified (Col 2:17); i.e., eternal life in Christ (Heb 11:40). So that God did keep his promise to the patriarchs personally of an "everlasting possession" (Jn 11:25-26) and, therefore, God did not shame his name by breaking his promise to the patriarchs of an eternal land (everlasting possession, Heb 11:16).
The only land promises remaining are those to the church (Mt 5:5, Ro 4:13, 2 Pe 3:10, 13, Rev 21:1, 4-7), all believers (Ps 37:29),
of which Canaan was the type (Josh 24:13).

"Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth as it is in heaven." (Matt. 6:10)

Any thing short of that, and God will have broken His Word. And that won't happen.

Lees

 

[Viking123]

Do you have a reference for that?

Gen 1- heavens

 

[CrowCross]

Gen 1- heavens

yes, Jesus made the heavens.....you need to explain the "From another part of the Earth" portion of your post.

 

[Viking123]

yes, Jesus made the heavens.....you need to explain the "From another part of the Earth" portion of your post.

It says-God created the heavens and the Earth, Jesus is Gods son, not God. That is why the US at Gen 1:26= Jehovah( God) and his master worker( Jesus)Prov 8:30)--Verse 27= HE( not we) created-- Prov 8:27-28= HE( not we) created-Isaiah 40:26= HE( not we) created.
John 1:3--Things were created-THROUGH Jesus( Gods master worker) If done through = 100% another did it=God=Jehovah=the Father.
Isaiah 44:24--Jehovah created by myself= the only one with the power and wisdom to create. Myself= singular= HE( not we)

 

[Lees]

Not according to NT apostolic teaching. . .

We see in the light of the NT Heb 11:13c-16 that what the patriarchs said (Ge 23:4, 28:4, 47:9; cf Lev 25:23, Dt 26:5)
showed that their hope in God's promise of an "everlasting possession" (Ge 17:8, 48:4) was
not a hope in earthly land they could see (Heb 11:9-10), but a hope in heavenly land they could not see (Heb 11:1-2, 10, 16).
For the patriarchs lived in the promised land as strangers in a foreign country, not possessing on earth the promised eternal inheritance ("everlasting possession," Heb 11:9), just as all believers live on earth as strangers in a foreign country, not yet possessing the same promised eternal inheritance of the heavenly city (Heb 11:16).

But although the patriarchs never possessed the earthly land, which was a type, they did possess the realities which the type signified (Col 2:17); i.e., eternal life in Christ (Heb 11:40). So that God did keep his promise to the patriarchs personally of an "everlasting possession" (Jn 11:25-26) and, therefore, God did not shame his name by breaking his promise to the patriarchs of an eternal land (everlasting possession, Heb 11:16).
The only land promises remaining are those to the church (Mt 5:5, Ro 4:13, 2 Pe 3:10, 13, Rev 21:1, 4-7), all believers (Ps 37:29),
of which Canaan was the type (Josh 24:13).

I have addressed your mantra many times. Are you going to answer my questions or continue to ignore them. See post #(191).

Your refusal to answer shows your inability to answer...shows the weakness of your position.

Lees