Is freewill real or just something we invented it ?

[Selah7]

Was it against Paul's will or in agreement with Paul's will?

What do you think?

 

[ReverendRV]

Nope, He simply "works with our surroundings", and allows us stupid humans to "dig our own graves" with our own human "wisdom".

I had mine dug in Houston in 1963. But in all honesty, IF I had been SURE that He'd come to me in conviction of SIN again and give me another chance - I probably would have showed Him the door that time too, like I'd done several times over the last decade.

There WAS a "sense of finality", the last time, though.

After the deed was done, I remember my first thoughts were: "why did I wait so long???"

You may not realize it Bob, but by God working with our surroundings; he pushes Us in that corner you said he pushes us into. But that's okay, I can't make anybody believe anything that most Christians should agree with. Everyone is at Enmity with God, that's a proactive enemy; not a neutral enemy. Jesus said, if you're not with me you are against me. No one has the Will from the start to allow God to trespass their borders...

But go ahead, I'm not here to get any into any useless disputes. Have fun...

 

[Selah7]

And yet, the apostle Paul did not have free will on the road to Damascus. God pretty much said, “YOU ARE MINE.”

Acts 9:3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks
Acts 9:6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

Paul was made an apostle by the "will of God,” not by the "will of Paul.”

It seems God intervenes in the lives of His elect. In other words, the elect do not have free will.

 

[Eleanor]

What do you think?

I think he was in total agreement with Jesus Christ.

 

[Selah7]

I think he was in total agreement with Jesus Christ.

Of course! Paul was of the elect! (from the foundation of the world)

 

[Eleanor]

It seems God intervenes in the lives of His elect. In other words, the elect do not have free will.

It's free will if you choose to do it because you prefer it, and they all prefer it and choose it.

You are not understanding free will as it is presented in the Bible and which, by the way, is not an issue in the Bible.
It's an external contrived concern of man.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

You may not realize it Bob, but by God working with our surroundings; he pushes Us in that corner you said he pushes us into.

Seems that I already said that. It's all part of His "Drawing process" without which we're NEVER getting in.

Jesus told Paul that it was HARD for him to "Kick against the pricks" - so there were things in Paul's life attacking his terroristic resolve, before he got blown off his horse, and fully realized his error.

 

[Selah7]

It's free will if you choose to do it because you prefer it, and they all prefer it and choose it.

You are not understanding free will as it is presented in the Bible and which, by the way, is not an issue in the Bible.
It's an external contrived concern of man.

I did present free will in accordance with the Bible (post 56). Then in post 58, I gave an example of election as told in Acts 9. Both are biblical. I understand just fine.

 

[Eleanor]

It seems God intervenes in the lives of His elect. In other words, the elect do not have free will.

I did present free will in accordance with the Bible (post 56). Then in post 58, I gave an example of election as told in Acts 9. Both are biblical. I unIderstand just fine.

I understood you to say in post #64 that the elect do not have free will.

 

[Selah7]

I understood you to say in post #64 that the elect do not have free will.

Yep, that’s what I said.

 

[Eleanor]

Yep, that’s what I said.

As regards the elect not having free will,
it's free will if you choose to do it because you prefer it, and all the elect prefer and choose to believe and obey.

You are not understanding free will as it is presented in the Bible and which, by the way, is not an issue in the Bible.
It's an external contrived concern of man, who super-imposes his notion of it on Scripture, and then denies it in the elect.

 

[Selah7]

Did Noah have free will? Nope.

And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth. Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch. And this is the fashion which thou shalt make it of: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, the breadth of it fifty cubits, and the height of it thirty cubits. A window shalt thou make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; and the door of the ark shalt thou set in the side thereof; with lower, second, and third stories shalt thou make it. And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die. But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee. And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female. Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive. And take thou unto thee of all food that is eaten, and thou shalt gather it to thee; and it shall be for food for thee, and for them. Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.

- Genesis 6:13-22 (KJV)

 

[Eleanor]

Did Noah have free will? Nope.

And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth. Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch. And this is the fashion which thou shalt make it of: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, the breadth of it fifty cubits, and the height of it thirty cubits. A window shalt thou make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; and the door of the ark shalt thou set in the side thereof; with lower, second, and third stories shalt thou make it. And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die. But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee. And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female. Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive. And take thou unto thee of all food that is eaten, and thou shalt gather it to thee; and it shall be for food for thee, and for them. Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.

- Genesis 6:13-22 (KJV)

Does the text state that he did not prefer to do it?

If he chose to do it, that was free will.

Did God force him to do it?

My choosing to obey the stop sign does not mean I do not have free will.
I chose to obey it, because I prefer that to a fine or jail.

Free will does not mean there are no consequences to your choices.
Most of us consider the consequences in making our free choices, because we prefer not to have the consequences of other choices.

It's not rocket science.

 

[Selah7]

Did Abraham have free will? Nope. God intervenes in the lives of His elect.

And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am. And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of. And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and saddled his ass, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son, and clave the wood for the burnt offering, and rose up, and went unto the place of which God had told him. Then on the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes, and saw the place afar off. And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you. And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it upon Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together. And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering? And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together. And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood. And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son. And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me. And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son. And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen. And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son: That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

- Genesis 22:1-18 (KJV)

 

[Selah7]

Did Moses have free will? Nope. The LORD told Moses exactly what to do. Why? Moses was elect.

Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Then Moses said, "I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn." So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, "Moses, Moses!" And he said, "Here I am." Then He said, "Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground." Moreover He said, "I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. And the LORD said: "I have surely seen the oppression of My people who are in Egypt, and have heard their cry because of their taskmasters, for I know their sorrows. "So I have come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians, and to bring them up from that land to a good and large land, to a land flowing with milk and honey, to the place of the Canaanites and the Hittites and the Amorites and the Perizzites and the Hivites and the Jebusites. "Now therefore, behold, the cry of the children of Israel has come to Me, and I have also seen the oppression with which the Egyptians oppress them. "Come now, therefore, and I will send you to Pharaoh that you may bring My people, the children of Israel, out of Egypt." But Moses said to God, "Who am I that I should go to Pharaoh, and that I should bring the children of Israel out of Egypt?" So He said, "I will certainly be with you. And this shall be a sign to you that I have sent you: When you have brought the people out of Egypt, you shall serve God on this mountain." Then Moses said to God, "Indeed, when I come to the children of Israel and say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they say to me, 'What is His name?' what shall I say to them?" And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And He said, "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.' " Moreover God said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: 'The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations.' "Go and gather the elders of Israel together, and say to them, 'The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob, appeared to me, saying, "I have surely visited you and seen what is done to you in Egypt; "and I have said I will bring you up out of the affliction of Egypt to the land of the Canaanites and the Hittites and the Amorites and the Perizzites and the Hivites and the Jebusites, to a land flowing with milk and honey." ' "Then they will heed your voice; and you shall come, you and the elders of Israel, to the king of Egypt; and you shall say to him, 'The LORD God of the Hebrews has met with us; and now, please, let us go three days' journey into the wilderness, that we may sacrifice to the LORD our God.' "But I am sure that the king of Egypt will not let you go, no, not even by a mighty hand. "So I will stretch out My hand and strike Egypt with all My wonders which I will do in its midst; and after that he will let you go. "And I will give this people favor in the sight of the Egyptians; and it shall be, when you go, that you shall not go empty-handed. "But every woman shall ask of her neighbor, namely, of her who dwells near her house, articles of silver, articles of gold, and clothing; and you shall put them on your sons and on your daughters. So you shall plunder the Egyptians."

- Exodus 3 (NKJV)

 

[Selah7]

From the above examples of election, one can see that God chooses or sets aside some folks to carry out His special plans and tasks. (These tasks do not include obeying traffic signs, @Eleanor)

 

[Ritajanice]

From the above examples of election, one can see that God chooses or sets aside some folks to carry out His special plans and tasks. )

His does indeed..that is my belief and testimony.....Amen!!

 

[Eleanor]

Did Moses have free will? Nope. The LORD told Moses exactly what to do. Why? Moses was elect.

Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Then Moses said, "I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn." So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, "Moses, Moses!" And he said, "Here I am." Then He said, "Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground." Moreover He said, "I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. And the LORD said: "I have surely seen the oppression of My people who are in Egypt, and have heard their cry because of their taskmasters, for I know their sorrows. "So I have come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians, and to bring them up from that land to a good and large land, to a land flowing with milk and honey, to the place of the Canaanites and the Hittites and the Amorites and the Perizzites and the Hivites and the Jebusites. "Now therefore, behold, the cry of the children of Israel has come to Me, and I have also seen the oppression with which the Egyptians oppress them. "Come now, therefore, and I will send you to Pharaoh that you may bring My people, the children of Israel, out of Egypt." But Moses said to God, "Who am I that I should go to Pharaoh, and that I should bring the children of Israel out of Egypt?" So He said, "I will certainly be with you. And this shall be a sign to you that I have sent you: When you have brought the people out of Egypt, you shall serve God on this mountain." Then Moses said to God, "Indeed, when I come to the children of Israel and say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they say to me, 'What is His name?' what shall I say to them?" And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And He said, "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.' " Moreover God said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: 'The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations.' "Go and gather the elders of Israel together, and say to them, 'The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob, appeared to me, saying, "I have surely visited you and seen what is done to you in Egypt; "and I have said I will bring you up out of the affliction of Egypt to the land of the Canaanites and the Hittites and the Amorites and the Perizzites and the Hivites and the Jebusites, to a land flowing with milk and honey." ' "Then they will heed your voice; and you shall come, you and the elders of Israel, to the king of Egypt; and you shall say to him, 'The LORD God of the Hebrews has met with us; and now, please, let us go three days' journey into the wilderness, that we may sacrifice to the LORD our God.' "But I am sure that the king of Egypt will not let you go, no, not even by a mighty hand. "So I will stretch out My hand and strike Egypt with all My wonders which I will do in its midst; and after that he will let you go. "And I will give this people favor in the sight of the Egyptians; and it shall be, when you go, that you shall not go empty-handed. "But every woman shall ask of her neighbor, namely, of her who dwells near her house, articles of silver, articles of gold, and clothing; and you shall put them on your sons and on your daughters. So you shall plunder the Egyptians."

- Exodus 3 (NKJV)

Seems you are confusing Noah's, Abraham's and Moses' choosing to do God's will with being forced to do God's will.

Or you do not understand what is meant by free will.

Choosing to do God's will is the operation of free will.

 

[Eleanor]

His does indeed..that is my belief and testimony.....Amen!!

Were you forced to do anything, or did you choose to do what you did?

No answer. . .

 

[Selah7]

Seems you are confusing Moses' choosing to do God's will with being forced to do God's will.

Choosing to do God's will is the operation of free will.

The elect will always do God’s will.