Is freewill real or just something we invented it ?

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

People the scripture uses the word "will"
בצוואה
and "free"
But to describe a person as free, as in not a slave, you’d say בֶּן/בַּת חוֹרִין (ben/baht hoh-REEN

Free and will do exist but to make in concept it is need the thing of freedom and good and evil the conscience to be able in hebrew in writting but they cuould not explain they did not have the experience of government,freedom of women, freedom of slavery, and concept of theology were needed but still the base is that choice by God to be with him in doing good or evil but consequence is death for evil or eternal life for good.


Their is gray area and that is Elijah's error, Moses Error, and Huldah as prophets that they made mistakes and change the destiny of the plan of God but God cover it with forgivness and let them learn from thier errors for A purpose and all purpose being good or evil will be in the end A happy ending in revelations. Put things in God hands and put love they God and nieghbor and he will do the rest ;D.

Not sure what you are saying here but I say with certainty that the Hebrews ( and by extention Israel ) most decidedly understood the concepts of will, slavery, government, and theology. I can also guarantee that no King, or Israel or any nation changed God's plans or had God change His own plans. With God there is no "plan B".

Psalm 2
Romans 9

 

[Grumix88]

Know that you have freewill and God gave it to you since the dawn of time we all have it and also since Eden know that the devil had it and it was his downfall to atack God but man fell but not's it's fault but the enemy and justice will be ours.



The holy spirit works and exist accordance to God's will and for A purpose as we see freewill existed people. God gave it to us even to the devil ahd freewill. How he got it and still why of he's rebbelion is still A mystery.


But we know that the heart has A part to play with freewill from the lord. Heart is where is the mind is and how the mind does things we exist thanks to God's will to put conscience and know of our existence. We have existence since we can talk and obey question is our conscience of Adam is the smae us our modern humans think ? Or Like A recent baby thinks when he coms to the world. What is the basisi of conscience ?


Our freedom is from our conscience and tell us what we are.

 

[Grumix88]

See that the commandments have to do witht he will the lord spoke and gave commandments this is why were giving freewill because they were written in our heart.

everything is connected and shows the plan of God and secrets inside of it. Truly not only is God's will in his plan but to put things in God's hands, child of heart, the wil of God, the law of eden, the laws of noah, and the 10 commandments and 613 commandments in their and put love shows us the secrets of the plan of God.

Will give verses in hebrew and translation wait a little.

 

[Grumix88]

Because one you have since Adam " Choice " he can choose and not like the devil you can change your tinking that everything is decide you have to think outside the box ! People here the conlflict so many people is your freewill because everything is predestined you think you never had any choice God gave you A choice ! You were sent here by God A long time ago for God said he met you and knew you before you were concieved in your mother's womb. You ahve planned God sent you, you don't know it ! Yet. Were all part of God's divine plan and when he sent you here before you came to this world he gave A mission ! What is your mission or purpose ?

You can decide to use God's will, holy spirit , God's plan (it's all separeted but works for his plan at the end!) and love in his mission your purpose or don't know and live in ignorance an sin ! He give you choice and does not force yourself to do his bidding if so you would not have fredom to choose also from JEsus salvation which he agve freely from love !

 

[Grumix88]

Instinct is part of freewill but also consciousness you feel there for you exist you talk therefore you exist.

God said that man has eaten of the fruti of good and evil and said Genesis 3:22

22Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil. And now, lest he reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever...”

Be like god and the angels who knew good and evil !

Man is not God but it's show we can interact in good and evil but still it is that we can do why people ? Understand the freewill is biblical and is before our creation and it existed in one individual I do not like talking about but in " Lucifer ". He had freewill and unlike it was impossible for angels by many theologist for angels to concieve freedom and think for themselves proves the same questions exist before us with angels and they had choice and could escape their destiny and Lucifer chosed wrong. Lesson that our minds do come in question whether your free or you prisioner of yourself to be free is A mentality and put in God's way in his hands gives you freedom !

 

[Grumix88]

Not sure what you are saying here but I say with certainty that the Hebrews ( and by extention Israel ) most decidedly understood the concepts of will, slavery, government, and theology. I can also guarantee that no King, or Israel or any nation changed God's plans or had God change His own plans. With God there is no "plan B".

Psalm 2
Romans 9

A debate one user said that freewill doesn't not exist becuase the words in hebrew translation do not use te word freewill since it is a modern word and went abck and look for what words are freewill and there in the mosaic law explaining freedom and to use your will and it a comparison to freewill. So explaining there is such word existed abck then but one user just to justify himmself say it doesn't henceforth no one has a will.

 

[Grumix88]

Yes, our purpose was not good or evil and by human fault we felled. If the tree was not their we would of fallen one will ask ? Nope, everything has plan and God never wanted man in this position what was the purpose of the tree afterwards ? if he would never eaten of it would of other animals eat of it and not man ? or later remove as time passed ? We will never know ? What was really the purpose just as A test of not to be eaten and later remove by God ?

 

[Grumix88]

But still we know God said that man was like him and the angels that knoweth good and evil ! And still we realize the devil had freewill before us and he fell ! But we know that in our error of Adam we can decide not like the devil but do good in the mistake and rely on God's effort and not our owns and put things in God's hands. Our destiny can change and move but some of you question we cannot escape him or his destiny he saved for us.

The question do you want the destiny he did not prepare and leave us in possibility of A million to one what will happen and man just be thrown in space and let him decide ? What will be the outcome if you can plan everyhing since your born from A baby and turn into an adult that instance and God gave you all the power of the future and destiny you wanted ? you will know what you know and you will make A decision better ?

Going to pst what dave said one time please follow thru !

 

[Grumix88]

Here this another post in the discusion !

Ellis Bell said :

Maybe this will help (I believe the man, L. Ray Smith, who authored this website is deceased)

The Myth of Free-Will Exposed
"Free will does not actually and literally mean that one can make choices, create, change his mind, or reformulate ideas and data, etc., but that those choices and thought processes must themselves be free thoughts and free choices. "Free will" is only true if our choices are also free. But free from what? Why, free from being forced upon us against our will, or free from being caused by anyone or anything except our OWN will. And so, yes, man can think, process data, make choices, change his choices, etc. But none of these activities are free from internal or external CAUSES.
<snip>
Up until the very last day with their Lord, the apostles all believed that they possessed the power of free will, which could enable them to choose their own destiny, and that they could and would have the strength of self determinism and free will to maintain that course. But Jesus told His disciples that they would all forsake Him. In other words, Jesus was foretelling of events that would cause (even "force,' if you will) them to change their wills, against their previously stated wills. They of course, all denied that Jesus knew what He was talking about."
I've had people in my life that would not do me any favors, change their minds and help me with situations. It's really odd to watch, cause it's like, what just happened?

 

[Grumix88]

Just to make A recap everyone from the first to remembering the last posts that were done but we have to see what hebrew say when using those words of "free" and choice and know the whole area is also tied to the slaves system Judean mosaic law applies people. Did you know their is A law that saw if A slave from another country comes to Israel he is free under the law of moses and musn't be return to his country to be slave ? He can be free forever

Understand our freedom did exist ! And existed in Heaven when Lucifer rebbeled, truly freewill exist in the spectrum of decision but the concept of the past, present, and future makes us think freewill doesn't exist because everything God's see's and foresaws decided everything for us. Nope people just like their are sciences explaining our existence their is other realms of existence of aliens, spirits and time that our thinking does not know and exist God created it becuase he is above it all but paths that exist and ways that exist in those ways explain that freedom exist probablility exist and Lucifer is one that's he was perfect in every sense we do knot know and yet he reblled and proves freewill myth is not myth and Ray I copy something from him. Still were just the tip of the iceberg in freewill and consciousness and existing explaining that what we percieve in our brains and eyes is not how freewil is exist by God and he gives us choice to do good and evil people don't understand it.


Because they want to control the base of it and with words grab their destiny and say like scientist they cannot really choose because their future was chosen for them and everything is planned ? Not true Moses and Hulda and Elijah changed the future of the world with thier decision can we who are in this choosing of good and evil also change the destiny of this world and do good and not the same mistakes as them ? Yes, we can can Jesus do it ? He did change our destiny all together.



No, people you just beggining to enter the tip of freewill as we speak we have the verses and in greek mean different things and in hebrew mean different things. But how in the universe rules are different and no we are bound becuase their Is more to God he is not showing we know him as the God of before, today and tomorrow are thier more time measurements in the universe ? Yes, Do angels, aliens, and other beings that exist have different counting than we do ? Yes, understand God is beyond destiny and he gives us that to be measure by time like we know it now but there is more ways to count time from angel perspective, alien perspective, and above all from God's perpsective for he is has not limits in time and he has counting system different from us.


Freewill is it based from God's letting people to choose to love him or not ? He let us choose our destiny can change from that ? Dont' go too far people he onlys wants us to choose either to be freed by him from sin thru Jesus and be baptized simple as that and not to choose to do evil simple people. Does freedom exist outside of our science and counting time and counting destiny and God can make it happen ? Yes he can he can do it all for he is God and only God judges God ! We cannot go beyond that but he can create it people. Don't rely on your own efforts in your decision but pray and rely on his and he will unchange your destiny to do your dream of saving your family to be rich man in god's way and be the thing you want he put in your heart to free in freewill in his love he gaves us life to choose and enjoy this magnificent thing called life and live it with all your might and feelings.


Choose God above it all and put him first he will change your ways and find your dream come reality and really be all the things you can be !

 

[Grumix88]

People our will has been always united to him before our birth when we are born we think we have independence from him or we started in this existence born a citizen in A counrty and we are not connected to him ?

We are and have always been here the error we think we are seperated from him by independance or by vote or by going to the ballot. Know we are in A greater thing and that is love. Know in how in A realm or in kingdom of love know we were never meant to be born inpendant from him. We were meant in to be with him always perhaps our idealogy of freedom and politics cannot be used in this relationship. Here two promblems that come and clash that our existence is us knowing we exist and conscience gives us the ability to know who we are and what is life and it's purpose but the other clash is we are born/created from God and did not want us to kow good and evil but wanted to live in the garden and knowing becomes sin and we are spearate from him and know freedom is sin ?

No, we have freedom in the garden and God let Adam obey and disobey bu letting A tree there and let him had choice to not of eat of it or did eat of it. He had perfect will Adam to obey God and keep choosing freely and walking freely without asking God where to in the garden yes he did can we have the relationship Adam had with God like Jesus had with God ? Yes.

The first is that we are born into existence know we are being we are born picture this if Human created and A.I. and it could live and feel like us but still would it ask space and says he diecide evrything by itself what you would you ? let it decide already and it's virgin mind be crisp clean and letting ti go it's own way like the wind and goes perfectly align in the universe by itself ? Some would argue it should be free because it would fit life perfectly going it's natural way and not our humans and animal way to destroy and control everything like our civilization has done since greeks and since romans to do. Rememeber we were never meant to be like this with A civilization and army, No.


He sill wanted us to obey him and be in the Garden to be in paradise forever bu came the enemy ( the devil) and our paraidise ruin.
No, God-relation with man isn't like an A.I. been created or A mamal been born to be like deer or leopard and go their natural way and live life in the circle of life. Our relation was never for the animals and us to be in paradise and no animal kill each other. We were created to live and be servants of the most high our purpose was another. He made us to choose and gave us freewill since the beggining to live but those who know what destiny is and what future,past, and present know you live you born and die say you don't have freewill your life is planned already like animals and you live in the box. You can't get out, Here scientist and rational humainze come to conlfict with both clashes and realize that choosing is not real !
No, people you can choose and your decison change everything but you do not have the intelligence to be humble and to wise know, our paths are can change and predetermination and God's soveriegn and out his soveriegn do exist and have their been in destiny what he wrote changed ? Yes, God writes everything we do and writes what your going to do. But god allows probabilities billions to one that things can change and destiny can change people. We have Elijah, Huldah, and Moses who change the future of Israel and show probabilities do exist and do happen. And that's part of outside the box that they chaneg the destiny and what God told them to do with his words and authority.


Know there is born to existence and consciuonsess in this world that we are born and theologist , writtters , and greek thinkers, german thinkers like Nietzche, socrates, aristotles, and Einstein say to leave that of A born baby consciouness is original and shows only good and A way that existence is based on human efforts not true our existence is not base on our efforts. And originality is given by our consciousness and perception but know they are wrong. This is why an error remember in this discussion man cannot know evil if not for good and evil tree it is important that we realize if an A.I. created will not undertand what God established things. So know there is A difference.


1.human created A.I. and it has freedom and born crisp clean

2. God-man realationship we have freedom in the garden and God let Adam obey and disobey but letting A tree there and let him had choice to not of eat of it or did eat of it. He had perfect will Adam to obey God and keep choosing freely and walking freely without asking God where to in the garden yes he did. Know this the importance of freedom we must have the relation Jesus had with God and align our will with his and originaly like he wanted and know you have freedom to do only good and it is how perfect freedom is with him and know it is better than any doubt modern thinkers like Einstien, Max Planck, Aristotles and Socrates would argue about destiny predetermination, future , past and present.


Be in God's path by putting yor will to his and avoid this conflicts.

 

[Grumix88]

[edited due to Commandment # 3 violation, please do not do this again]

[edited due to Commandment # 2 violation, please do not do this again]

 

[Grumix88]

 

[Grumix88]

The base of freewill is what G-d wanted man with freewill before the fall man had man freewill ? and it was perfect ? Yes, Becuase it was align with him before all this of politics, sin, and works and faith of slavation were not part of this he wanted us to be with him in the garden and do one thing . Trust in him put our faith can we keep having our faith and keep the relation with Adam like G-d intended even though we are fallen and cannot be pure like he was, Inoccent ? Jesus is that second Adam he had A relationship and did what Adam was supposed to be A son, A servant and love like G-d loves the world. We are not perfect but we do 10% of the work, 50% of the work and 90 of the work % of faith and he does the rest in mysterious ways. Remember we are imperfect of the fall.

 

[Grumix88]

Know that the base of freewill the secret is what he wants before the fall and can we understand the concept of freewill ? He gave man choice to eat the tree of good and evil ? Yes, he did. So know there is freewill concept in what is slavery in the law of mosaic law and how you are liberated, and what is concept of how democracy of goverment of law say and gives freewill to choose A president or leader, the freewill of philosophy greeks talk, the freewill of from sin that Jesus liberates you and what Romans 8:8-9 NLT this verses says from satan. Know that to understand the freewill God gave Adam in the Eden is still the base of all this and we must do what Jesus did. Freewill means different in each culture because the words don't mean the same know the definition in hebrew is another in form of freedom of choice but inside the law and what greeks say about freewill is not the same and it is what influence

 

[Grumix88]

Our modern system in law and what we call liberalism but it is not what God is talking about and what the law says in the mosaic way and how jesus freed us from sin. Thru the mosaic law using the new testament by fullfiling it. Know that is the crucial and essential infromation we talk about and use verses to reveal the 2 commandments help us in the that road. And all this thread reveals to us that infromation. Know there is freewill in the flesh and in the spirit but loves is hte base of it. And destiny, predestination, probabilites of A billion to one, actions and owrks by faith decide our future, and God soveriegn over it and not God soveriegn in the future exist. It all exist and God's plan is what is goes in the end.

Know this why we must understand hebrew lexicon emaning and greek one's too because God's commandmnets are used to be exact and what he ordered in he way and issued was meant for kings, prophets, and his people and we must study thoroughly more and find they meaning to it and discover he meant freewil in one way and freewill for his people thrue Jesus and thru the law another way.

 

[Grumix88]

freewill existed before adam and eve and the devil had it he chosed to rebelled. You saw it exist does the plan of G-d involves love and choosing to be free. Choose to put you will in G-d's will becuase it cause you conflict like everyone that it's impossible don't be in the box that is fate and destiny and what you decide is cannot be without god already planning it ?
The plan of God of giving thanks always is different of how he put the laws of physics and laws of probabilities in the world don't go to conlfict everything is possible. Know that mistake was made with moses and huldah and eliajh shows that fate can be changed. But still to pray and pray and doing the impossible to change your fate your destiny of being shoemaker or being into a lawyer is possible if you want. G-d has moved the universe and the fate of our humanity in wars with assyrians when he sent an angel, he makes miracles everyday and moves time and universe. ungratefulness is what all say because they have cobnflict say it's impossible God already plan for you everything but he's plan of god about been thankful even when bad things and been faithful and obeying him in good and bad times isn't about the future beenalready planned and impossible to avoid his soveriegn and he chosed the path already !

1. what he planned premptively in how the universe wrks and moves the sun and you have night and day and you age and you were bron in A planet God wrote that. physics work and you do everyday on works and buy groceries and food he establish laws.

2.probablitlies that everything changes and destiny moves constantly even when you don't know and G-d gives you every day to change you lifespan choose a better path by eating vegetables and changing your course of life not making the bad decison going to war and decided to go have job in kentucky and you change routes. everyday people the universe makes cracks in its fabric of how the destiny and chances are made by faith by believing by praying know God hears ya and God moves it all. Everything is possible God has used jews and did incredible things like making kings out of ordinary people makins miracles and making man into prophets and moving the universe for them. God does more thinsg we don't know he does for us becuase he loves us.

3.Don't be like the scientists who say everything is already planned he is a dictator god because he already decided everything for us and didn't let us choose. know if you decided things out of nowhere and you popped out of the planet and God ceases to exist you became God you wouldn't know what was the last things God did, then you will decide everything and you will make so many errors because you can't do what God does, and realese finally he was right and he put things all for A reason. Those scientist agnostic thinks if they were God decided everything realized how hard God life is deciding everything and he gave you all but you made the bad decisions in life. You had all the freedom you woulnd't know what to do with it and just make mistakes and if you were free to do everything and be A god you wouldn't find true love you woulnd't do things you just be the same individual looking for things and think having all the freedom and you decided everything you woulnd't find that special thing God has for youa t the end in heaven. You will be lost and still be unperfect those scientist just blame and if they had everything they will just mess up and realize didn't go their way either and mess up.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Ok...somewhere in there I get the impression that you believe that men have free will. Now does this "free will" include the ability of unregenerate man to "choose G-d" in a salvific way?

Absolutely, when God by the Holy SPirit CONVICTS a person of SIN, and of Judgement, the person has the option to Surrender, Repent, and be saved, OR to cut and run back into death (like I did every time, until the last time back in '63). The choice to OBEY is always ours, but only when God extends the offer.

I understand that Calvies postulate that NOBODY HAS ANY CHOICE ABOUT ANYTHING, and we're arbitrarily selected ("U"), and IF we're "Elect", we'll get saved ("I"), and "persevere to we die" ("P"). If we're NOT "ELECT" then we'll go to HELL ("L"). simple as that.

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

Absolutely, when God by the Holy SPirit CONVICTS a person of SIN, and of Judgement, the person has the option to Surrender, Repent, and be saved, OR to cut and run back into death (like I did every time, until the last time back in '63). The choice to OBEY is always ours, but only when God extends the offer.

If the Holy Spirit ( God ) should regenerate you and cause you to have concern over your sin then your only option is repentance and surrender. Unregenerate man has no concern over his sin other than to celebrate it. He loves his sin and hates God.

Your "experience" does not trump Scripture, Bob. You will not find "free will" in Scripture. Contemplation of man's inability to be unbiased in anything should eventually cure you of the illusion that you had anything to do with your salvation other than the sin that made it necessary.

I understand that Calvies postulate that NOBODY HAS ANY CHOICE ABOUT ANYTHING,

False. Us "Calvies" postulate that we choose what we desire. The unregenerate man does not desire God therefore he chooses anything but God all the day long. In order for man to "choose" God he must be changed on a fundamental level. He must be made a God lover instead of a God hater.

and we're arbitrarily selected ("U")

Also false. The Scripture does not state the why of our selection. It does state that God elects some and passes over others for His own reasons that have nothing to do with us. For His glory. That's the closest we can come too a "why".

, and IF we're "Elect", we'll get saved ("I"), and "persevere to we die" ("P").

Persevere by the power of God. Amen.

If we're NOT "ELECT" then we'll go to HELL ("L"). simple as that.

True. And rightly so.

 

[Deleted member 6]

Absolutely, when God by the Holy SPirit CONVICTS a person of SIN, and of Judgement, the person has the option to Surrender, Repent, and be saved, OR to cut and run back into death (like I did every time, until the last time back in '63). The choice to OBEY is always ours, but only when God extends the offer.

I understand that Calvies postulate that NOBODY HAS ANY CHOICE ABOUT ANYTHING, and we're arbitrarily selected ("U"), and IF we're "Elect", we'll get saved ("I"), and "persevere to we die" ("P"). If we're NOT "ELECT" then we'll go to HELL ("L"). simple as that.

Ppl makes choices all the time. But no one chooses contrary to their nature is what we, and the Bible, teach.