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How many verses are required to prove a false doctrine?

Even if there was no New Testament scripture we would still have Christ in his church with the guarantee of the holy spirit
And we we wouldn't have sound doctrine either...

(2Jn 1:10) If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house, and do not give him a greeting;

Ever hear of the Dark Ages?
 
Everyone is righteous and saved?
Only those who cease from their self righteous works and receive God's gift of righteousness found in Jesus Christ and Him crucified.
 
Both of those verses are in accordance with believing in Christ.


The way that we find union with experiencing the expression of his nature through following his example of obedience to the Mosaic Law, such as by doing holiness, righteousness, goodness, justice, mercy, faithfulness, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentlest, and self-control.


The Mosaic Law is God's word and Jesus is God's word made flesh, so in other words, us embodying God's word is the way to have union with the one who is the embodiment of God's word.
We’re under grace not the mosaic law!
We find union by baptism gal 3:27
 
We can be justified by faith alone insofar as there are no works that we can do to earn our salvation, but faith is not alone insofar as the same faith by which we are justified is also expressed through obedience to the Mosaic Law.
Is the mosaic law in effect?

The Ten Commandments are eternal of course
 
I'll just follow what the Bereans did....Acts 17:11
Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
But they accepted the tradition by the authority of Paul that’s the important part

Where does scripture say scripture alone?
Where does it say all the truths revealed by Christ are in scripture?

Where does scripture say what is scripture? 66 books with missing chapters by the authority of the English Bible society who have zero authority or 73 complete books by the authority of Christ in his church!
With the guarantee of the Holy Spirit!


Sola scriptura says:
Christ and most of the apostles wrote nothing, so they had No authority, no teaching!
Only those who wrote had authority!

Even if there was no scripture we would still have the truths revealed by God with Christ in His church with the guarantee of the Holy Spirit!

The apostolic church does not require scripture to know the truth, they were instructed by Christ (God) the truth itself (Jn 14:6) in person for three years, the church existed before the New Testament (not cannon til 381) the church exercised Her mission, power, and authority without scripture, to teach and sanctify all men unto eternal salvation! Matt 28:19

Thanks
 
Both of those verses are in accordance with believing in Christ.


The way that we find union with experiencing the expression of his nature through following his example of obedience to the Mosaic Law, such as by doing holiness, righteousness, goodness, justice, mercy, faithfulness, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentlest, and self-control.


The Mosaic Law is God's word and Jesus is God's word made flesh, so in other words, us embodying God's word is the way to have union with the one who is the embodiment of God's word.
If we MUST “believe on him” then it’s not Christ alone and the sola is false!
 
Interesting article...it didn't go the way I thought it would go or the way you titled it....As the article pointed out many "christians" may be baptized for the wrong reasons not that there is a downside.

But, speaking of downside, many believe that when they are baptized they can check off another requirement and they are saved....when they wake up before the White Throne they'll realize the downside of that requirement....understanding they didn't trust in Christ alone but rather on what they thought they did to merit or earn salvation. I pray your not one of them Frank and understand we get baptized because of our salvation rather than to obtain salvation.
I agree. Salvation comes only from LIVING our faith in Christ.

As far as baptism goes, I believe what the universal church teaches. Besides ~60% of Protestants believe in infant baptism. Even if it turns out to be incorrect, it would simply mean it doesn't matter and no one is destined to go to the hot place because they believe in being baptized.
 
I don't think so.
You are in Christ, Christ is in Mary nine months and Mary gave birth to Christ and all those in Christ, what do call a person who gave birth to you?

Matt 19:26-28
Rev 12:17
 
A pope does not save us but with the apostles teaches the truths revealed by Christ, administers the sacraments of grace and governs the church founded by Christ
 
You're trying too hard.
Do you reject the tradition of men found in the solas for the divine and apostolic tradition of Christ and his apostles found in dogma, councils, creeds, and the church fathers?
 
Sorry, I didn't realize you were part of the Emergent Church, questioning the 'meaning' of the Bible, or perhaps the Emergent Church is part of the RCC?
Never heard of it, scripture alone excludes any meaning or interpretation

Does saved always mean salvation?
 
Je
The apostles spent 40 days with the post resurrected Jesus. They kept a record of what He had taught.
How many days did your pope spend with the post resurrected Jesus?
Jesus commanded the verbal tradition to be taught
Scripture is tradition
2 thes 2:15

Sacred tradition:

(Note: teaching authority of Christ in His apostolic church, not traditions, habits, customs etc.)

Sacred Tradition / apostolic tradition

Every word the apostles heard from the mouth of Christ and were commanded to teach to all men!

The truths revealed by Christ and commanded by Christ to be taught by the apostles to all men!

Matt 28:19 does NOT say: go and teach all men to observe “scripture alone”, it does Not say go write books and let the people make their own faith!

Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Acts 1:2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

Commanded to teach not to write “scripture alone”!

Commanded tradition not “scripture alone”!

Acts 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Apostolic tradition (doctrine) Not scripture alone”!

Nor is there more than one Christian faith revealed by Christ and taught by the apostolic church!
Eph 4:5

The Authority of the apostolic church is binds the conscience of every Christian to believe the Christian faith or the truths revealed by Christ and found in the creeds, didache, dogma’s and Decree’s of apostolic councils.

The apostles are commanded by Christ to teach tradition.

One revelation of Jesus Christ!
Word (Verbal)
and
Epistle (scripture)
2 thes 2:15



We are commanded by Christ to obey tradition. Matt 28:19-20
Tradition (oral teaching) or every word the apostles heard from the mouth of Christ.

Obedience of faith! Rom 16:26

And scripture supports tradition.

Example of tradition: 1 cor 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you…

2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Only Christ has authority to establish the one true church and to send the apostles to teach and sanctify all men unto eternal salvation, all sects are full of errors and the tradition of men devoid of grace, truth, and authority.
 
Verses supporting Sacred tradition

Matt 28:19-20
Acts 1:2-8
Rom 16:26
1 cor 11:23
2 thes 2:15
(Partial)

Tradition is divine revelation from Christ
Both verbal and scripture
Both are tradition!
2 thes 2:15
Tradition / revelation
Either by word (verbal) or epistle (scripture)
So one cannot have more importance or be superior to the other

One revelation of Jesus Christ!
Tradition
Verbal or scripture


Revelation ended with the ascension of Christ. Jn 1:3

Only one faith (revelation) eph 4:5

Jn 20:30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Jn 21:24 This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.

25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

2 John 1:12
Having many things to write unto you, I would not write with paper and ink: but I trust to come unto you, and speak face to face, that our joy may be full.

Sola scriptura says:
Christ and most of the apostles wrote nothing, so they had No authority, no teaching!
Only those who wrote had authority!

Even if there was no scripture we would still have the truths revealed by God with Christ in His church with the guarantee of the Holy Spirit!

The apostolic church does not require scripture to know the truth, they were instructed by Christ (God) the truth itself (Jn 14:6) in person for three years, the church existed before the New Testament (not cannon til 381) the church exercised Her mission, power, and authority without scripture, to teach and sanctify all men unto eternal salvation! Matt 28:19


Scripture Verses that contradict the “Bible is our ONLY AUTHORITY”!

Matt 5:14
Matt 6:33
Matt 13:11
Matt 18:17
Matt 28:19
Lk 1:4
Lk 10:16
Jn 8:32
Jn 16:13
Jn 20:21
Acts 1:8
Acts 2:42
Acts 8:26
Acts 8:31
Acts 18:25
Rom 10:15
1 cor 4:11
1 cor 11:23
1 thes 2:23
2 thes 2:15
Col 2:7
Eph 4:5
Heb 13:7
Heb 13:17
1 Tim 3:15
1 Jn 1:3-5
1 Jn 4:6
2 Jn 1:12
Jude 1:3

How can it be said scripture is “sole authority” or the only source of truth or the rule of faith when scripture says we must hear the church Matt 18:17 the apostles are the light of the world Matt 5:14 we must hold the doctrine of the apostles acts 2:42 the church is the pillar and ground of truth 1 Tim 3:15
 
The apostles spent 40 days with the post resurrected Jesus. They kept a record of what He had taught.
How many days did your pope spend with the post resurrected Jesus?
Christ appointed Peter the pope head of the church on earth
 
The apostolic church does not require scripture to know the truth, they were instructed by Christ (God) the truth itself (Jn 14:6) in person for three years, the church existed before the New Testament (not cannon til 381) the church exercised Her mission, power, and authority without scripture, to teach and sanctify all men unto eternal salvation! Matt 28:19

Sola scriptura says:
Christ and most of the apostles wrote nothing, so they had No authority, no teaching!
Only those who wrote had authority!

Even if there was no scripture we would still have the truths revealed by God with Christ in His church with the guarantee of the Holy Spirit!
 
And we we wouldn't have sound doctrine either...

(2Jn 1:10) If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house, and do not give him a greeting;

Ever hear of the Dark Ages?
The dark ages had to to with morals not faith! Barbarism

Acts 1:8 witness of the fathers

PAPIAS
“Papias [A.D. 120], who is now mentioned by us, affirms that he received the sayings of the apostles from those who accompanied them, and he, moreover, asserts that he heard in person Aristion and the presbyter John. Accordingly, he mentions them frequently by name, and in his writings gives their traditions [concerning Jesus]. . . . [There are] other passages of his in which he relates some miraculous deeds, stating that he acquired the knowledge of them from tradition” (fragment in Eusebius, Church History 3:39 [A.D. 312]).

EUSEBIUS OF CAESAREA
“At that time [A.D. 150] there flourished in the Church Hegesippus, whom we know from what has gone before, and Dionysius, bishop of Corinth, and another bishop, Pinytus of Crete, and besides these, Philip, and Apollinarius, and Melito, and Musanus, and Modestus, and, finally, Irenaeus. From them has come down to us in writing, the sound and orthodox faith received from tradition” (Church History 4:21).

IRENAEUS
“As I said before, the Church, having received this preaching and this faith, although she is disseminated throughout the whole world, yet guarded it, as if she occupied but one house. She likewise believes these things just as if she had but one soul and one and the same heart; and harmoniously she proclaims them and teaches them and hands them down, as if she possessed but one mouth. For, while the languages of the world are diverse, nevertheless, the authority of the tradition is one and the same” (Against Heresies 1:10:2 [A.D. 189]).

“That is why it is surely necessary to avoid them [heretics], while cherishing with the utmost diligence the things pertaining to the Church, and to lay hold of the tradition of truth. . . . What if the apostles had not in fact left writings to us? Would it not be necessary to follow the order of tradition, which was handed down to those to whom they entrusted the churches?” (ibid., 3:4:1).

“It is possible, then, for everyone in every church, who may wish to know the truth, to contemplate the tradition of the apostles which has been made known throughout the whole world. And we are in a position to enumerate those who were instituted bishops by the apostles and their successors to our own times—men who neither knew nor taught anything like these heretics rave about.

“But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the successions of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles.

“With this church, because of its superior origin, all churches must agree—that is, all the faithful in the whole world—and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition” (ibid., 3:3:1–2).

CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA
“Well, they preserving the tradition of the blessed doctrine derived directly from the holy apostles, Peter, James, John, and Paul, the sons receiving it from the father (but few were like the fathers), came by God’s will to us also to deposit those ancestral and apostolic seeds. And well I know that they will exult; I do not mean delighted with this tribute, but solely on account of the preservation of the truth, according as they delivered it. For such a sketch as this, will, I think, be agreeable to a soul desirous of preserving from loss the blessed tradition” (Miscellanies 1:1 [A.D. 208]).

ORIGEN
“Although there are many who believe that they themselves hold to the teachings of Christ, there are yet some among them who think differently from their predecessors. The teaching of the Church has indeed been handed down through an order of succession from the apostles and remains in the churches even to the present time. That alone is to be believed as the truth which is in no way at variance with ecclesiastical and apostolic tradition” (The Fundamental Doctrines 1:2 [A.D. 225]).

CYPRIAN OF CARTHAGE
“[T]he Church is one, and as she is one, cannot be both within and without. For if she is with Novatian, she was not with [Pope] Cornelius. But if she was with Cornelius, who succeeded the bishop Fabian by lawful ordination, and whom, beside the honor of the priesthood the Lord glorified also with martyrdom, Novatian is not in the Church; nor can he be reckoned as a bishop, who, succeeding to no one, and despising the evangelical and apostolic tradition, sprang from himself. For he who has not been ordained in the Church can neither have nor hold to the Church in any way” (Letters 75:3 [A.D. 253]).
 
ATHANASIUS
“Again we write, again keeping to the apostolic traditions, we remind each other when we come together for prayer; and keeping the feast in common, with one mouth we truly give thanks to the Lord. Thus giving thanks unto him, and being followers of the saints, ‘we shall make our praise in the Lord all the day,’ as the psalmist says. So, when we rightly keep the feast, we shall be counted worthy of that joy which is in heaven” (Festal Letters 2:7 [A.D. 330]).

“But you are blessed, who by faith are in the Church, dwell upon the foundations of the faith, and have full satisfaction, even the highest degree of faith which remains among you unshaken. For it has come down to you from apostolic tradition, and frequently accursed envy has wished to unsettle it, but has not been able” (ibid., 29).

BASIL THE GREAT
“Of the dogmas and messages preserved in the Church, some we possess from written teaching and others we receive from the tradition of the apostles, handed on to us in mystery. In respect to piety, both are of the same force. No one will contradict any of these, no one, at any rate, who is even moderately versed in matters ecclesiastical. Indeed, were we to try to reject unwritten customs as having no great authority, we would unwittingly injure the gospel in its vitals; or rather, we would reduce [Christian] message to a mere term” (The Holy Spirit 27:66 [A.D. 375]).

EPIPHANIUS OF SALAMIS
“It is needful also to make use of tradition, for not everything can be gotten from sacred Scripture. The holy apostles handed down some things in the scriptures, other things in tradition” (Medicine Chest Against All Heresies 61:6 [A.D. 375]).

AUGUSTINE
“[T]he custom [of not rebaptizing converts] . . . may be supposed to have had its origin in apostolic tradition, just as there are many things which are observed by the whole Church, and therefore are fairly held to have been enjoined by the apostles, which yet are not mentioned in their writings” (On Baptism, Against the Donatists 5:23[31] [A.D. 400]).

“But the admonition that he [Cyprian] gives us, ‘that we should go back to the fountain, that is, to apostolic tradition, and thence turn the channel of truth to our times,’ is most excellent, and should be followed without hesitation” (ibid., 5:26[37]).

“But in regard to those observances which we carefully attend and which the whole world keeps, and which derive not from Scripture but from Tradition, we are given to understand that they are recommended and ordained to be kept, either by the apostles themselves or by plenary [ecumenical] councils, the authority of which is quite vital in the Church” (Letter to Januarius [A.D. 400]).

JOHN CHRYSOSTOM
“[Paul commands,] ‘Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you have been taught, whether by word or by our letter’ [2 Thess. 2:15]. From this it is clear that they did not hand down everything by letter, but there is much also that was not written. Like that which was written, the unwritten too is worthy of belief. So let us regard the tradition of the Church also as worthy of belief. Is it a tradition? Seek no further” (Homilies on Second Thessalonians [A.D. 402]).
VINCENT OF LERINS
“With great zeal and closest attention, therefore, I frequently inquired of many men, eminent for their holiness and doctrine, how I might, in a concise and, so to speak, general and ordinary way, distinguish the truth of the Catholic faith from the falsehood of heretical depravity.

“I received almost always the same answer from all of them—that if I or anyone else wanted to expose the frauds and escape the snares of the heretics who rise up, and to remain intact and in sound faith, it would be necessary, with the help of the Lord, to fortify that faith in a twofold manner: first, of course, by the authority of divine law [Scripture] and then by the tradition of the Catholic Church.

“Here, perhaps, someone may ask: ‘If the canon of the scriptures be perfect and in itself more than suffices for everything, why is it necessary that the authority of ecclesiastical interpretation be joined to it?’ Because, quite plainly, sacred Scripture, by reason of its own depth, is not accepted by everyone as having one and the same meaning. . . .

“Thus, because of so many distortions of such various errors, it is highly necessary that the line of prophetic and apostolic interpretation be directed in accord with the norm of the ecclesiastical and Catholic meaning” (The Notebooks [A.D. 434]).
POPE AGATHO
“[T]he holy Church of God . . . has been established upon the firm rock of this Church of blessed Peter, the prince of the apostles, which by his grace and guardianship remains free from all error, [and possesses that faith that] the whole number of rulers and priests, of the clergy and of the people, unanimously should confess and preach with us as the true declaration of the apostolic tradition, in order to please God and to save their own souls” (Letter read at fourth session of III Constantinople [A.D. 680]).
 
And we we wouldn't have sound doctrine either...

(2Jn 1:10) If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house, and do not give him a greeting;

Ever hear of the Dark Ages?
Just cos we have scripture does not mean you can know the truth or have sound doctrine apart from Christ His apostolic church and the Holy Spirit!

2 Peter 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their owndestruction.
 
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