How many verses are required to prove a false doctrine?

[jeremiah1five]

How many verses are required to prove a false doctrine?​

An infinite number plus 1.

The understanding of doctrine (bible verses) does not depend upon logic; rather, upon God.
1 Cor. 2:14 But the natural [unbelieving] man does not accept the things [the teachings and revelations] of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness [absurd and illogical] to him; and he is incapable of understanding them, because they are spiritually discerned and appreciated, [and he is unqualified to judge spiritual matters]. Good Luck or may God's providence be kind to you

Question: If Scripture is line upon line, precept upon precept, this implies to me that each Scripture upon which a reasoning is followed is an edification (building) upon itself and that if we come upon a passage of Scripture that contradicts present understanding do we not dispose of prior reasoning from prior Scripture to follow a different reasoning or understanding?

 

[fastfredy0]

Question: If Scripture is line upon line, precept upon precept, this implies to me that each Scripture upon which a reasoning is followed is an edification (building) upon itself and that if we come upon a passage of Scripture that contradicts present understanding do we not dispose of prior reasoning from prior Scripture to follow a different reasoning or understanding?

God determines the method and degree to which each individual understands scripture.

Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
Phil 1:29 For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for Him,
Matt 13:11He replied, “The knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.…
Romans 9:18 So then, He has mercy on whom He wills (chooses), and He hardens [the heart of] whom He wills.
2 Corinthians 4:3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing. 4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
Revelation 17:11 Because of this God will send upon them a misleading influence,
yahda, yahda

 

[prism]

I wonder how many Forum pages it takes to make a case as to "How many verses are required to prove a false doctrine?"?

 

[donadams]

John 14:15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

Do you keep the commandments?

John 3:16...water baptism not required.

If water baptism is required can you provide a chapter that explains how an individual is to be baptized? You know, sprinkling, pouring immersion...if immersion is it 3 times? Once? Forward? Backwards?
Who can perform it?
Who can be baptized?
What should be said?
Should it be in the name of Jesus only or in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?

Infants??? Where does the bible say that baptism when performed on an infant removes original sin?
Where in the bible is an infant baptized?

What if you die after believing yet haven't been baptized? Is that a big OOPS on your part?

As I said....if baptism is a requiremen for salvation....why is the bible so silent on how to baptize?

You will find it in matt 28:20 and acts 1:2

Jn 3:16 perpetual state of faith.
Baptism is included, implied, as part of the Christian faith.

No oops, if something is truly not possible then it is not required but if it is ready available and rejected that’s another matter

Infants and tradition below

 

[donadams]

(Note: not traditions, habits, customs etc.)

Sacred Tradition / apostolic tradition

Every word the apostles heard from the mouth of Christ and were commanded to teach to all men!

The truths revealed by Christ and commanded by Christ to be taught by the apostles to all men!

Matt 28:19 does NOT say: go and teach all men to observe “scripture alone”, it does Not say go write books and let the people make their own faith!

Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Acts 1:2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

Commanded to teach not to write “scripture alone”!

Commanded tradition not “scripture alone”!

Acts 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Apostolic tradition (doctrine) Not scripture alone”!

Nor is there more than one Christian faith revealed by Christ and taught by the apostolic church!
Eph 4:5

The Authority of the apostolic church is binds the conscience of every Christian to believe the Christian faith or the truths revealed by Christ and found in the creeds, dogma’s and Decree’s of apostolic councils.

The apostles are commanded by Christ to teach tradition.

We are commanded by Christ to obey tradition. Matt 28:19-20
Tradition (oral teaching) or every word the apostles heard from the mouth of Christ.

Obedience of faith! Rom 16:26

And scripture supports tradition.

Example of tradition: 1 cor 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you…

2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Only Christ has authority to establish the one true church and to send the apostles to teach and sanctify all men unto eternal salvation, all sects are full of errors and the tradition of men devoid of grace, truth, and authority.


One mediator:

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

On the level of justice Christ is the only mediator, obtaining atonement, grace, mercy, and salvation.

Anyone in the communion of saints can pray and intercede for those in need, and the apostles mediate between Christ and the church, the communion of saints. Matt 28:20

And the angels minister to those who will inherit salvation. Heb 1:14

 

[donadams]

Acts 2:38-39 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Promise is to you’re children! Vs 39

This promise made in ez 36
A promise from God is a sacred oath, and a sacred oath is a sacrament!

Ez 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Jn 3:5 born again by water and the spirit.

Acts 16:15 entire household baptized! Does not say adults only or except infants!

Ez 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness.

(It does not say adults only or except infants!)
(Scripture does not say anywhere “do not baptized infants”)

Baptism is the Christian initiation sacrament of the new covenant for all men. Matt 28:19 Jn 1:29 Jn 3:16

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. (It does not say except infants!) (but it does say “all”)!

Lk 1:10-11 all people including infants

Thee faith is required for adult baptism.
Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38

If it’s not possible (as in the case of infants) it’s not required.

But the promise of the parents to raise and educate the child in the faith is required, then the child is confirmed in thee faith at the age of reason.

Repentance is required for adult baptism. Acts 2:38

If there is no personal sin to repent of (as in the case of infants) then it’s not required.

For two thousand years the church founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles has always baptized infants!

Acts 1:8
Witness of Augustine!

It is this one Spirit who makes it possible for an infant to be regenerated . . . when that INFANT is brought to baptism; and it is through this one Spirit that the infant so presented is reborn. For it is not written, "Unless a man be born again by the will of his parents" or "by the faith of those presenting him or ministering to him," but, "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit." The water, therefore, manifesting exteriorly the sacrament of grace, and the Spirit effecting interiorly the benefit of grace, both regenerate in one Christ that man who was generated in Adam (Letters 98:2 [A.D. 408]).

“The sacrament of baptism is most assuredly the sacrament of regeneration” (ibid., 2:27:43).

“Baptism washes away all, absolutely all, our sins, whether of deed, word, or thought, whether sins original or added, whether knowingly or unknowingly contracted” (Against Two Letters of the Pelagians 3:3:5 [A.D. 420]).

“This is the meaning of the great sacrament of baptism, which is celebrated among us: all who attain to this grace die thereby to sin—as he himself [Jesus] is said to have died to sin because he died in the flesh (that is, ‘in the likeness of sin’)—and they are thereby alive by being reborn in the baptismal font, just as he rose again from the sepulcher. This is the case no matter what the age of the body. For whether it be a newborn infant or a decrepit old man—since no one should be barred from baptism—just so, there is no one who does not die to sin in baptism. Infants die to original sin only; adults, to all those sins which they have added, through their evil living, to the burden they brought with them at birth” (Handbook on Faith, Hope, and Love 13[41] [A.D. 421]).

Thanks

 

[prism]

Copy and Paste. (Three long posts in two minutes?)
Sounds like a man with an agenda to me.

 

[donadams]

Do you have a chapter and verse that states this?

Spiritual Mother!

A marvelous thing!
A miraculous action!
A wonder!
An awe inspiring declaration!

Behold thy mother!

John 19:26-27
When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! Then saith has he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

Jesus is not asking John to care for His mother, if so He would have said so, he is not even speaking to John, scripture says He is addressing the disciple, therefore it applies to all disciples.

Jesus is making Mary spiritual mother to all disciples! And all disciples take Her into thier home, And if the apostle John needs a spiritual mother so do we!

What is the family of God without a mother? The mother is the heart of the family! Jesus said I will not leave you orphans! Jn 14:18 He gave Mary to be the mother of one disciple then He does so for all disciples!

As eve was the mother of all the living in the first creation, gen 3:20 so Mary is the mother of all those who live in Christ and the new creation! Behold, I make all things new!

Rev 12:17 our spiritual mother!

Rachel is spiritual mother of Israel!
A type of Mary as spiritual mother of Christians!

The 12 sons of Jacob have 4 biological mothers, but Rachel is the spiritual mother of all Israel!

Matt 2:18 In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are no more.

A person without a mother is an orphan, Jesus said: I would not have you (Christians) orphan, Jn 19:16 “Behold Thy mother”!

All were in Mary!

Mary is the spiritual mother of All those who are born again unto supernatural life of grace!
The seed of Abraham
In Christ and He was in Mary, His mother our mother.

Thanks

 

[donadams]

Doe this mean Jesus wasn't God prior to his birth...or conception... through Mary?

Of course not, Jesus is eternal
Truly God truly man

Council Of Ephesus – 431 A.D.

If anyone does not confess that Emmanuel is God in truth, and therefore that the holy virgin is the mother of God (for she bore in a fleshly way the Word of God become flesh) let him be anathema.

Decree’s of councils are sacred tradition:

Mary is not the mother of the divinity, or the mother of the eternal father, or the mother of the Holy Spirit, nor the source of the divine nature.

Mary is the mother of God, cos Jesus Christ is God and Mary is His mother, not the mother of His body but the mother of His entire person.


"She is rightly called not only the mother of the man, but also the Mother of God ... It is certain that Mary is the Mother of the real and true God."
Martin Luther

"Elizabeth called Mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary was at the same time the eternal God."
John Calvin


Mother of God!

Jesus is a divine person who became man, and not a human person, that is why Mary is truly the “mother of God” Jesus is God, Mary is His mother, so she is the mother of God not to be confused with “source”, she is not the source of God or the mother of the divine nature, or the mother of the eternal Father, nor the mother of the spirit!

But mother of the Son who is God.

Only one person every has a family relationship with God, Mary; and she has three!

Daughter of the Father
Mother of the Son
Spouse of the Holy Spirit

And Jesus being our spiritual brother Mary is our spiritual mother!

it is a relationship between mother and child, Mary and Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ is God;
Mary is His mother;
Mary is the mother of God to deny this is to deny the divinity of Christ and scripture. Lk 1:43

Thanks

 

[CrowCross]

You will find it in matt 28:20 and acts 1:2

Jn 3:16 perpetual state of faith.
Baptism is included, implied, as part of the Christian faith.

No oops, if something is truly not possible then it is not required but if it is ready available and rejected that’s another matter

Infants and tradition below

Well, duh.....anyone who reads the bible understands that baptism is presented in several ways...water, fire, whatever....BUT, and let me repeat...BUT...the bible doesn't show one how to be baptized. If baptism is a requirement for salvation why is the method not taught in the Bible? What if you've done everything else right...checked off all of the requirements for salvation...including baptism and God rejects you because you were sprinkled instead of dunked?

 

[CrowCross]

John 19:26-27
When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! Then saith has he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

Jesus is not asking John to care for His mother, if so He would have said so, he is not even speaking to John, scripture says He is addressing the disciple, therefore it applies to all disciples.

"Whom He loved" is a specific mention of one of the disciples....not all of the disciples.

Jhn 21:7 7Then the disciple whom Jesus loved said to Peter, “It is the Lord!” As soon as Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he put on his outer garment (for he had removed it) and jumped into the sea.

John 13:23 One of His disciples, the one whom Jesus loved, was reclining at His side.

John 21:20 Peter turned and saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following them. He was the one who had leaned back against Jesus at the supper to ask, "Lord, who is going to betray You?"

Do you believe John was considered as the one whom Jesus loved in the above verses? It certainly isn't all the disciples...right?

Jesus was speaking to John...and asked John to specifically care for His mother.

 

[CrowCross]

Mary is the mother of God, cos Jesus Christ is God and Mary is His mother, not the mother of His body but the mother of His entire person.

Is your mother the mother of your spirit?

Was your spirit given to you by God...or did it come about by a biolgical process?

 

[jeremiah1five]

God determines the method and degree to which each individual understands scripture.

Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
Phil 1:29 For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for Him,
Matt 13:11He replied, “The knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.…
Romans 9:18 So then, He has mercy on whom He wills (chooses), and He hardens [the heart of] whom He wills.
2 Corinthians 4:3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing. 4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
Revelation 17:11 Because of this God will send upon them a misleading influence,
yahda, yahda

But we all come to the same understanding, don't we?

 

[Frank Robert]

If baptism is a requirement for salvation why is the method not taught in the Bible? What if you've done everything else right...checked off all of the requirements for salvation...including baptism and God rejects you because you were sprinkled instead of dunked?

Many Christian denominations believe baptism is required, but even if it isn't if want to live our faith by imitating Christ then baptism is an ideal way to do so. Why should we imitate Christ? For their own sakes if we want to be spiritually healthy. If we want to escape the sickness of sin and enjoy the vigor of growing grace, Jesus is our model.

Whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked. John 2:6

What do you believe are the downsides to Baptism?

5 Reasons Not to Get Baptized | Mercy Hill Church

Getting baptized is a big decision, and people make that decision for a variety of reasons. Sadly, many are not the biblical reasons to get baptized.

mercyhillchurch.com

 

[donadams]

As I said, there is a sense that we are justified by faith alone and a sense that we are not.

phil 1:29

 

[donadams]

Whose works? His or ours?

Not saved by works of the law, but we are saved by grace of thru faith and baptism united to Christ and abide in Christ Jn 15:4 enduring to the end Mk 13:13 Matt 24:13 in good faith and good works prayer alms fast sacraments and suffering

Salvation is not simply a doctrine to be believed, but a sacrifice / atonement, giving grace and union (by faith and baptism / water and the spirit) with the person of Christ the mediator, members of Christ! Must be in Christ born again by faith and baptism, Mk 16:16 Jn 3:5 united to God and His communion of saints thru Christ the mediator and the grace of God!


Redemption:
The redemption was accomplished by Christ with no participation on our part. All mankind is redeemed.
Lk 2:11 Jn 1:29 rm 5:8 1 pet 1:21-23
God gives all men sufficient truth and grace for salvation.

Justification:
then if we accept His redemption we are justified, born again by faith and baptism. Mk 16:16 Jn 3:5 acts 2:38 8:36 Titus 3:5 1 pet 3:21

Sanctification:
Members of Christ and his church by grace we practice good works (prayer, alms, fasting, virtues charity, suffering other sacraments etc. until death. Phil 1:29

Salvation:
Is for those who are faithful and die in the grace of God united to Christ and in his saints at death enter into eternal salvation! Mk 13:13 Matt 24:13

Titus 2:14
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, (redemption) and purify unto himself a peculiar people, (justification / baptism notice purify / wash) Jn 3:5 zealous of good works. (Sanctification) Jn 15:4 abide in Christ Matt 3:16 believes (present tense) Matt 24:13 endures to the end Shall be saved.
(Salvation)

Glorification:

Suffering required for glorification with Christ!

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Justification and salvation are not the same rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

 

[donadams]

You have a mixed-up genealogy, Donald.
Those in the New Covenant are the House of Israel. The House of Israel are the Jewish people:

31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, That I will make a new covenant
With the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Jer. 31:31.

There are NO GENTILES in the House of Israel:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; Jer. 31:33.

And you misapplication of Scripture of Romans 4:14 is talking aboy those in the Law and Abraham was over 1000 years before and outside any Mosaic Law Covenant:

14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: Rom. 4:13–14.

You bring up Abraham and then use Scripture speaking about those under the Law for your support. Completely off the mark. But things like this doesn't matter to you. Does it..

Christ replaced David as king Lk 1:32/33
The new covenant church replaced Israel Matt 21:43
Gal 4 holy mother church
Christians now the chosen people
1 pet 2:9
Thanks

 

[CrowCross]

Many Christian denominations believe baptism is required, but even if it isn't if want to live our faith by imitating Christ then baptism is an ideal way to do so. Why should we imitate Christ? For their own sakes if we want to be spiritually healthy. If we want to escape the sickness of sin and enjoy the vigor of growing grace, Jesus is our model.

Whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked. John 2:6

What do you believe are the downsides to Baptism?

5 Reasons Not to Get Baptized | Mercy Hill Church

Getting baptized is a big decision, and people make that decision for a variety of reasons. Sadly, many are not the biblical reasons to get baptized.

mercyhillchurch.com

Interesting article...it didn't go the way I thought it would go or the way you titled it....As the article pointed out many "christians" may be baptized for the wrong reasons not that there is a downside.

But, speaking of downside, many believe that when they are baptized they can check off another requirement and they are saved....when they wake up before the White Throne they'll realize the downside of that requirement....understanding they didn't trust in Christ alone but rather on what they thought they did to merit or earn salvation. I pray your not one of them Frank and understand we get baptized because of our salvation rather than to obtain salvation.

 

[donadams]

Can you provide me with an example of a traditional teaching that is considered as inspired?

The 255 dogmas of the faith

Short concise statements or summary of an aspect of thee Christian faith.

You will agree with the vast majority of them, I can send them or you can google “list of catholic dogma”

Example

12. There is only One God.

Deut. 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord:

21. God is eternal.

Psalm 90
Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

thanks

 

[prism]

Not saved by works of the law, but we are saved by grace of thru faith and baptism united to Christ and abide in Christ Jn 15:4 enduring to the end Mk 13:13 Matt 24:13 in good faith and good works prayer alms fast sacraments and suffering

Salvation is not simply a doctrine to be believed, but a sacrifice / atonement, giving grace and union (by faith and baptism / water and the spirit) with the person of Christ the mediator, members of Christ! Must be in Christ born again by faith and baptism, Mk 16:16 Jn 3:5 united to God and His communion of saints thru Christ the mediator and the grace of God!


Redemption:
The redemption was accomplished by Christ with no participation on our part. All mankind is redeemed.
Lk 2:11 Jn 1:29 rm 5:8 1 pet 1:21-23
God gives all men sufficient truth and grace for salvation.

Justification:
then if we accept His redemption we are justified, born again by faith and baptism. Mk 16:16 Jn 3:5 acts 2:38 8:36 Titus 3:5 1 pet 3:21

Sanctification:
Members of Christ and his church by grace we practice good works (prayer, alms, fasting, virtues charity, suffering other sacraments etc. until death. Phil 1:29

Salvation:
Is for those who are faithful and die in the grace of God united to Christ and in his saints at death enter into eternal salvation! Mk 13:13 Matt 24:13

Titus 2:14
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, (redemption) and purify unto himself a peculiar people, (justification / baptism notice purify / wash) Jn 3:5 zealous of good works. (Sanctification) Jn 15:4 abide in Christ Matt 3:16 believes (present tense) Matt 24:13 endures to the end Shall be saved.
(Salvation)

Glorification:

Suffering required for glorification with Christ!

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Justification and salvation are not the same rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

You seem to overlook one thing. What part of 'free' (as in free gift) don't you understand?


Matthew 17:26 (KJV) Peter saith unto him, Of strangers. Jesus saith unto him, Then are the children free.

John 8:32 (KJV) And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

John 8:36 (KJV) If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Romans 5:15 (KJV) But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

Romans 5:16 (KJV) And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

Romans 5:18 (KJV) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Galatians 5:1 (KJV) Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Has the Son made you free (Jn 8:36), or are you still under the RCC yoke?