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Free Will

I find in these debates the Free Will side will seldomly define the term. At best they tend to say "it's the ability to choose". When pressed to define the FREE part they won't do it.
I've noticed they are often insistent that it be "not caused by God", or at least, "not determined by God". What I have never heard from any of them, is how God need not be the first cause of the logical sequences of cause-and-effect, that cause every particular effect. They wax vehement, poetic, protective of God's name and character, and do all sorts of things, except explain how it is possible that first cause does not cause all subsequent effects.
 
Get the "foreshadowed," a pattern, not just a symbol.

The dove is the symbol of the Holy Spirit, it is not a pattern of the Holy Spirit.

The sacrifices were a pattern of Christ's atonement, not a symbol of it.

There are what Scripture shows to be the meanings.
Now you're moving the goalposts. I didn't say that it was "just a symbol"; in fact, I explicitly stated that a type, although always a symbol, could be other things as well.

Your attitude is clear, so I'm ending this conversation.
 
That’s wrong it makes faith meaningless
Faith isnt meaningless, it reveals Christ as having done it all. Faith points to Christ its object, thts why its given to them that have already been saved.
 
Your other error to add to the numerous you hold to is that faith is from God, granted to man, and is the same power that raised Christ from the dead, Ephesians 1:19.

It isn't "mans act" as you erroneously assume, but is instead God's work, John 6:29.

Your teachings are amiss due to the fact you isolate verses from the rest of Scripture.
You do understand believing is mans act dont you ? Even if God causes it by the mighty working of His Power, its still a act of the new man.
 
No, they're not. Being reconciled and being declared righteous are quite different concepts.
I disagree. They are relatively the same. Reconciliation involves non imputation of sin 2 Cor 5:19

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Non imputation of sin means Justification before God, God doesnt charge the reconciled with sin

And those who God doesnt impute sin, He imputes righteousness Rom 4:6-8

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
 
I disagree. They are relatively the same. Reconciliation involves non imputation of sin 2 Cor 5:19

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Non imputation of sin means Justification before God, God doesnt charge the reconciled with sin

And those who God doesnt impute sin, He imputes righteousness Rom 4:6-8

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Another mistake: not imputing someone's trespassed to him is different from declaring him righteous, not only that but not imputing their trespasses is not a definition of "reconciling the world unto himself"; rather, it is something that accompanied reconciling the world to himself.
 
I haven't followed the whole discussion. I've only made it to this post. I think that CCShorts makes some very good points.

As I was reading, I thought of John 3 where it says that men love darkness rather than light. There is a sort of freedom (loving darkness rather than light) that is actually a bondage. It is free in the sense of one doing and acting in accord with his highest preference. However, because of an immoral object of love (darkness), the person suffers from the results of sin as well as not realizing the awesomeness of the light.
That's right. Being free from external coercion, to do what you desire the most (within the constraints of ability and opportunity) is clearly not freedom from that desire; in fact, it's being entirely captive to that desire.

This is why it's so important to try to get freewillers to define what they mean by free will, and why they almost never do so rigorously.
 
Another mistake: not imputing someone's trespassed to him is different from declaring him righteous, not only that but not imputing their trespasses is not a definition of "reconciling the world unto himself"; rather, it is something that accompanied reconciling the world to himself.
I disagree again, Rom 4 shows that non imputation of sin equates to imputed righteousness, which is Justification before God. As stated, its legally related.
 
I disagree again, Rom 4 shows that non imputation of sin equates to imputed righteousness, which is Justification before God. As stated, its legally related.
Not only are you disagreeing with Calvinists which you claim you are one , you are also disagreeing with God and scripture. That is not a good position to place yourself in.

Why don't you accept correction from your Calvinist brothers in Christ ? I understand why you will not listen to me.

From the book of Wisdom

Proverbs 15:31-32
He who listens to life-giving reproof will dwell among the wise.
Those who disregard discipline despise themselves, but the one who heeds correction gains understanding.

Proverbs 13:18
Poverty and shame come to him who ignores discipline, but whoever heeds correction is honored.
 
I disagree again, Rom 4 shows that non imputation of sin equates to imputed righteousness, which is Justification before God. As stated, its legally related.
Please attempt to demonstrate your position, with exegesis of Scripture; rather than merely claiming it to be so, thanks.
 
Its one thing to have some people affirm a post and some not when its "controversial " or a known passage where people can see things differently and its a non essential doctrine/topic, not salvific.

Its an entirely different thing when no one from your own camp will not affirm your conclusions about scripture and actually opposes them.

That is a position no one better find themselves in especially if you are not teachable or will accept correction. That is a dangerous place to be imho.
 
I've noticed they are often insistent that it be "not caused by God", or at least, "not determined by God".
You're lucky.... I try to get them to define the FREE part of FREE WILL refers hoping they will say something like: "not determined/influenced/whatever by God" as then I know logically "I GOTCHA" ... (giggle); but my experience is that they stick with "it's a choice" which is true.


What I have never heard from any of them, is how God need not be the first cause of the logical sequences of cause-and-effect, that cause every particular effect.
Yeah, I like to throw the Law of Causality at them too ... or
Furthermore, from nothing nothing comes and since before creation nothing existed, all knowledge must come from God and the source of His knowledge is His wisdom and ability to cause all things. If God's knowledge of his creatures were derived from the creatures by the impression of anything upon him, as there is upon us, he could not know from eternity, because from eternity there was no actual existence of anything but himself; and therefore there could not be any images shot out from anything, because there was not anything in being but God. Stephen Charnock

Aside: ... the Law of Causality lends itself to "hard determinism" ... that's when our side believes in Free Will but rename it "a mystery". (mischievous giggle)
 
General observation: Sometimes it not a matter of one's doctrine being off, but it's a matter of being able to communicate that is the issue. Hmmm, we all have that issue to varying degrees.

Back to my 🍿🍿
 
General observation: Sometimes it not a matter of one's doctrine being off, but it's a matter of being able to communicate that is the issue. Hmmm, we all have that issue to varying degrees.

Back to my 🍿🍿
Yes this is true and forums are not the easiest way at times to communicate and we can be misunderstood. Sometimes it takes several interactions with a poster or an idea to get clarity. And another thing its very easy to talk past one another as we are trying to make our points.
 
Now you're moving the goalposts. I didn't say that it was "just a symbol"; in fact, I explicitly stated that a type, although always a symbol, could be other things as well.

Your attitude is clear, so I'm ending this conversation.
Adam was a pattern (type) of Christ (Heb 12:14), not a symbol of Christ, as is the dove for the Holy Spirit.
 
General observation: Sometimes it not a matter of one's doctrine being off, but it's a matter of being able to communicate that is the issue. Hmmm, we all have that issue to varying degrees.

Back to my 🍿🍿
Guilty as charged.
 
In a way, this goes back to the basic problem of communicating what we don't understand. We assume certain meaning, for example, to "existence". Just above I read that before God created there was nothing. The writer saying that, was trying to make a good point, but I can hear the screams and jeers, particularly from atheists, "Then God didn't exist either!"

But the fact is, OUR comprehension of 'existence' is sorely lacking in knowledge and understanding. —Particularly when it comes to God's existence. We may think we have a pretty good handle on what OUR existence means, but that doesn't quite fit God's existence—even from our point of view.

We want knowledge and understanding, but we have a need to organize our thoughts, putting handles on them so we can carry them around. This necessarily happens short of fact, and complicated by our necessarily temporal point of view, not to mention our fallen self-centered nature. We even play at math on our small conclusions: "If A is true, and B is truth, then A=B, sort of". But we don't even understand A nor B. "If God is Love, and he wants all to be saved, then universalism is the obvious conclusion."

We ought to be at least skeptical of ourselves. Human reasoning can only go so far, with limited data and presumptive understanding.

But one thing that would really help is to recognize that all fact is in God's hands, and that there is no reality, no substance, no authority, to our point of view. Drawing conclusions from what we see, is dangerous at best. God is the default fact. Everything else is measured by that, from HIS point of view.

We are not the source, nor even causes, of the truth.
 
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