For those who deny the Lord Jesus is God: The Father or the Lord Jesus?

[Binyawmene]

Now you got it, at least in part.

The God that predestined would later be called His Father. And the Word to be conformed to was later called His Son.

Out of context from my post doesn't support your position.

Of course, it much less wieldy than the Bible says it:

I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son.

So, you believe that Jesus became the Son on his resurrection?

Hebrews 1:5, Acts 13:33, Revelations 1:5, Psalms 2:7

 

[Binyawmene]

Some people for some reason start making personal accusations, just because someone disagrees with them.

It's nothing new under the sun. I been doing apologetic forums for 20 years. Someone called me gnosticism yesterday.

  - Son of Man and Ancient of Days. = Trinity

Read them. Revelation 3:14 calls Jesus the beginning of “God’s creation. God isn’t the beginning of His own creation. The creator is God, the creation is what God created. Basic English. Jesus was created. You’ve been overruled by Jesus. IOW Jesus is the ORIGIN, SOURCE of God's creation.

forums.carm.org

it's petty and childish, and has no place among adults.

Ad hom is just a logical fallacy.

Unless you can show anywhere that I speak as a Muslim or of being a Muslim, then you can retract your accusative 'question', or I will report you for suggesting I am not a Christian by faith and life.

You can report me if you want to. That's nothing new in apologetic forums. I've been edit, ban, called names, etc. I asked you if you are a Muslim based on your username and for calling God the Father Zeus.

Ghada - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Or you can just move on elsewhere.

Fallacies. Most people who give out demands means they lost the discussion. And it's nothing new too.

 

[Ghada]

So, you believe that Jesus became the Son on his resurrection?

Misstating things people teach from the Bible, is not by accident with those that also misstate the Bible.

They did the same with Jesus:

And there arose certain, and bare false witness against him, saying, We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.

 

[Ghada]

You can report me if you want to. That's nothing new in apologetic forums. I've been edit, ban, called names, etc.

No problem. You only argue because you like the argue.

I asked you if you are a Muslim based on your username and for calling God the Father Zeus.

Since you don't properly read what people write to you, then you naturally do the same when not writing to you.

Now that I know you're MO, I'll limit any responses no more than once or twice. I try to extend courtesy of misunderstanding, until I see honesty is not what I'm dealing with.

Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

 

[CherubRam]

The word "Lord" and "Master" are common titles applied to many people.

There is only One God

Trinitarianism has never been a belief in Judaism. Trinitarianism was introduced into Christianity by Gnostic Pagans.
There is only one person who is the only true God, and that is Yahwah.

Joshua 22:22
“The One Mighty God, Yahwah! The One Mighty God, Yahwah! He knows! And let Israel know! If this has been in rebellion or disobedience to Yahwah, do not spare us this day.

Psalm 50:1
The One Mighty God, Yahwah, speaks and summons the earth from the rising of the sun to where it sets.

Malachi 2:10
Do we not all have one Father ? Did not one God create us? Why do we profane the covenant of our ancestors by being unfaithful to one another?

Malachi 2:15
Has not the one God made you? You belong to him in body and spirit. And what does the one God seek? Godly offspring. So be on your guard, and do not be unfaithful to the wife of your youth.

Romans 3:30
since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.

1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Messiah Yahshua, for whom all things came and through whom we live.

Ephesians 4:6
one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in all.

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Messiah Yahshua,…

James 2:19
You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

 

[Eleanor]

"The word (logos) isn't a person, it's an an it according to 1 John 1:1-2. Jesus is a he. Where you are misunderstanding this is that you assumed Jesus had a literal pre-existence in scripture but he doesn't, i.e., you can't produce any verses about Jesus saying or doing anything in the Old Testament. When the logos became flesh is when he came into existence. God wasn't created, Jesus was."
( The above is a quote is a quote from @Runningman, not Eleanor. Edited by admin at Eleanors request. See posts #89, 91, 93)
It was in Greek philosophy, which is why John chose the word.

 

[CrowCross]

"The word (logos) isn't a person, it's an an it according to 1 John 1:1-2. Jesus is a he. Where you are misunderstanding this is that you assumed Jesus had a literal pre-existence in scripture but he doesn't, i.e., you can't produce any verses about Jesus saying or doing anything in the Old Testament. When the logos became flesh is when he came into existence. God wasn't created, Jesus was."

It was in Greek philosophy.

The bible teaches in several verses that Jesus was the creator...which would require a pre-existence.

 

[Fred]

1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Messiah Yahshua, for whom all things came and through whom we live.

The "Lord" in 1 Corinthians 8:6 refers to the same Lord in 1 Corinthians 10:21-22, 26.
This means Jesus is YHWH.

https://christcentered.community.forum/threads/1-corinthians-8-6-lord-yhwh-1-corinthians-10-22-26.1341/

 

[Arial]

"The word (logos) isn't a person, it's an an it according to 1 John 1:1-2. Jesus is a he. Where you are misunderstanding this is that you assumed Jesus had a literal pre-existence in scripture but he doesn't, i.e., you can't produce any verses about Jesus saying or doing anything in the Old Testament. When the logos became flesh is when he came into existence. God wasn't created, Jesus was."

It was in Greek philosophy, which is why John chose the word.

Eleanor,

Is this really your post? It sounds like a post that @Runningman made to me some time ago, possibly in a different thread.

 

[Eleanor]

The "Lord" in 1 Corinthians 8:6 refers to the same Lord in 1 Corinthians 10:21-22, 26.
This means Jesus is YHWH.

https://christcentered.community.forum/threads/1-corinthians-8-6-lord-yhwh-1-corinthians-10-22-26.1341/

Indeed!
The NT apostles identify Jesus as the YHWH of the OT.

1) Mt 3:3 (Isa 40:3) - Isaiah prophecies a voice of one calling in the desert, "Prepare the way for YHWH," which was John the Baptist (Mk, Lk).
John prepared the way for Jesus (Mk 1:-8, Lk 3:16, Jn 1:29-34). . .making Jesus the YHWH of Isa 40:3.

2) Ro 10:9, 13 (Joel 2:32) - Joel prophesies that "everyone who calls on the name of YHWH will be saved," which Paul quotes and applies to Jesus. . .making Jesus the YHWH of Joel 2:32.

3) Heb 1:6 (Dt 32:43) - Moses said, "Rejoice, O nations, with his people, and let all the angels worship him (YHWH), for he will avenge the blood of his servants (Septuagint translation), which Hebrews quotes and applies to Jesus. . .making Jesus the YHWH of Dt 32:43.

4) Eph 4:8-9 (Ps 68:18) - The psalmist states, "When you ascended on high. . .that you, O YHWH, might dwell there," which Paul applies to the ascended Christ. . .making Christ the YHWH of Ps 68:18

5) Jn 19:37 (Zec 12:10) - Zechariah prophesies that they will look on YHWH (12:1-2), the one they have pierced, which John applies to Jesus. . . making Jesus the YHWH of Zec 12:1-2, 10.

6) Lk 4:18-21 (Isa 61:1, 8) - Isaiah's prophecy identifies YHWH of vv. 7-8 with the Messiah of v. 1, which Jesus applies to himself. . .
making Jesus the YHWH of Isa 61:1, 7-8.

7) Rev 1:12-18 (Isa 44:6, 48:12) - In Rev 1:12-18, Jesus (1:18, 2:8) identifies himself as the First and the Last, which is YHWH of Isa 44:6, 48:12. . .making Jesus the YHWH of Isa 44:6, 48:12.

8) In Rev 21:6, 22:12-13, Jesus (1:18, 2:8) is the Alpha and Omega who is the Lord God of Rev 1:8.

9) In Rev 20:11-13 w/ Jn 5:22, 27, 9:39, the one on the throne is Jesus, who in Rev 21:7 is God. . .making Jesus the God of Rev 21:7.

10) Jn 1:3, Col 1:16-17, Heb 1:2b, 10 (Ge 1:1, Isa 44:24, Jer 10:16) - Isa 44:24 says YHWH created alone, while Jn 1:3, Col 1:16-17, Heb 1:2b, 10 say Jesus brought all things into being, created all things including angels and by his power holds them in existence, and made the universe. . .so according to John, Paul and Hebrews, Jesus is the Elohim Creator YHWH of Ge, Isa and Jer.

 

[Eleanor]

Eleanor,

Is this really your post? It sounds like a post that @Runningman made to me some time ago, possibly in a different thread.

You are correct, it is a copy of his.

 

[Arial]

You are correct, it is a copy of his.

Had me worried there for a minute! Do you want me to edit to show it is his?

 

[Eleanor]

Had me worried there for a minute! Do you want me to edit to show it is his?

That would be great!

Thanks!

 

[Arial]

That would be great!

Thanks!

Will do.

 

[Fred]

Indeed!
The NT apostles identify Jesus as the YHWH of the OT.

1) Mt 3:3 (Isa 40:3) - Isaiah prophecies a voice of one calling in the desert, "Prepare the way for YHWH," which was John the Baptist (Mk, Lk).
John prepared the way for Jesus (Mk 1:-8, Lk 3:16, Jn 1:29-34). . .making Jesus the YHWH of Isa 40:3.

2) Ro 10:9, 13 (Joel 2:32) - Joel prophesies that "everyone who calls on the name of YHWH will be saved," which Paul quotes and applies to Jesus. . .making Jesus the YHWH of Joel 2:32.

3) Heb 1:6 (Dt 32:43) - Moses said, "Rejoice, O nations, with his people, and let all the angels worship him (YHWH), for he will avenge the blood of his servants (Septuagint translation), which Hebrews quotes and applies to Jesus. . .making Jesus the YHWH of Dt 32:43.

4) Eph 4:8-9 (Ps 68:18) - The psalmist states, "When you ascended on high. . .that you, O YHWH, might dwell there," which Paul applies to the ascended Christ. . .making Christ the YHWH of Ps 68:18

5) Jn 19:37 (Zec 12:10) - Zechariah prophesies that they will look on YHWH (12:1-2), the one they have pierced, which John applies to Jesus. . . making Jesus the YHWH of Zec 12:1-2, 10.

6) Lk 4:18-21 (Isa 61:1, 8) - Isaiah's prophecy identifies YHWH of vv. 7-8 with the Messiah of v. 1, which Jesus applies to himself. . .
making Jesus the YHWH of Isa 61:1, 7-8.

7) Rev 1:12-18 (Isa 44:6, 48:12) - In Rev 1:12-18, Jesus (1:18, 2:8) identifies himself as the First and the Last, which is YHWH of Isa 44:6, 48:12. . .making Jesus the YHWH of Isa 44:6, 48:12.

8) In Rev 21:6, 22:12-13, Jesus (1:18, 2:8) is the Alpha and Omega who is the Lord God of Rev 1:8.

9) In Rev 20:11-13 w/ Jn 5:22, 27, 9:39, the one on the throne is Jesus, who in Rev 21:7 is God. . .making Jesus the God of Rev 21:7.

10) Jn 1:3, Col 1:16-17, Heb 1:2b, 10 (Ge 1:1, Isa 44:24, Jer 10:16) - Isa 44:24 says YHWH created alone, while Jn 1:3, Col 1:16-17, Heb 1:2b, 10 say Jesus brought all things into being, created all things including angels and by his power holds them in existence, and made the universe. . .so according to John, Paul and Hebrews, Jesus is the Elohim Creator YHWH of Ge, Isa and Jer.

It's so clear.

 

[Eleanor]

The word "Lord" and "Master" are common titles applied to many people.

There is only One God

Trinitarianism has never been a belief in Judaism.

The same can be said of Jesus of Nazareth being Messiah.

So what does that show?

 

[Runningman]

"The word (logos) isn't a person, it's an an it according to 1 John 1:1-2. Jesus is a he. Where you are misunderstanding this is that you assumed Jesus had a literal pre-existence in scripture but he doesn't, i.e., you can't produce any verses about Jesus saying or doing anything in the Old Testament. When the logos became flesh is when he came into existence. God wasn't created, Jesus was."

I am not really sure why you quoted my post from last year without any explanation, seeming to use it as representative of something you know as well, but thanks. Good to see it again.

Indeed. 1 John 1:1-3 does indeed say that in the beginning the Word of Life is something the disciples could see, hear, and touch. I might add, the disciples were not there at the literal “beginning” [of time] but rather were there at the beginning of Jesus’ ministry when the Word of life was revealed or was manifested in the man Jesus.

 

[Runningman]

The bible teaches in several verses that Jesus was the creator...which would require a pre-existence.

Jesus is not the creator anywhere in the Bible. Try Acts 4:24-27 where the Sovereign Lord and Creator is God and Jesus isn’t.

Or how about Matthew 11:25 where the Father is called the Lord of heaven and earth and then Acts 17:24 says the Lord of heaven and earth is God who created everything and gives life to all people? Jesus is never called the Lord of heaven and earth.

Hebrews 1:10 says YHWH is the creator among numerous other verses in the Old Testament saying YHWH is the creator.

There are so many verses that say Jesus isn’t YHWH it isn’t even funny.


Psalm 110
1The LORD[YHWH] said to my Lord:[Jesus]
“Sit at My right hand
until I make Your enemies
a footstool for Your feet.”

Psalm 2
7I will proclaim the decree
spoken to Me by the LORD:[YHWH]
“You are My Son;[Jesus]
today I have become Your Father.

Isaiah 28
16So this is what the Lord GOD[YHWH] says:
“See, I lay a stone in Zion,
a tested stone,
a precious cornerstone,[Jesus] a sure foundation;
the one who believes will never be shaken.

Isaiah 42
1“Here is My[YHWH] Servant,[Jesus] whom I uphold,
My Chosen One,[Jesus] in whom My soul[YHWH] delights.
I will put My Spirit[YHWH] on Him,[Jesus]
and He will bring justice to the nations.

Isaiah 53
10Yet it was the LORD’s[YHWH] will to crush Him[Jesus]
and to cause Him to suffer;
and when His soul is made a guilt offering.
He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days,
and the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.

Micah 5
4He will stand and shepherd His flock[Jesus]
in the strength of the LORD,
in the majestic name of the LORD His God.[YHWH]
And they will dwell securely,
for then His greatness will extend
to the ends of the earth.

And the list goes on and on. There are over 6,000 examples of Jesus not being YHWH. Jesus isn't God. For YHWH alone is God.

Acts 3
13The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers,[YHWH] has glorified His servant Jesus.

 

[Fred]

Hebrews 1:10 says YHWH is the creator

The "Lord" in Hebrews 1:10 refers to Jesus. Thus, Jesus is the Creator.

 

[Runningman]

The "Lord" in Hebrews 1:10 refers to Jesus. Thus, Jesus is the Creator.

It does not refer to Jesus. Look at it closer with verse 9. The God who anointed the Son is YHWH. Therefore YHWH is the creator as the entire bible says.