FATE OF THE UNREACHED

[Carbon]

Do you realize a salvation-by-seeking position is being asserted? That's a works-based salvation.

Indeed it is. I agree.

 

[David1701]

A brick can't be saved by faith and a fetus is as they say, "dumb as a brick". To think a fetus knows of Christ and has knowledge sufficient for salvation is ludicrous IMO as the empirical evidence negates such a claim.


You don't need an IQ over 100 to be saved. An child can be saved. But you need some intellect where intellect is defined as: the ability to learn and reason; the capacity for knowledge and understanding. A fetus CANNOT reason. It has no knowledge of Christ and knowledge of Christ is an essential part of saving faith. Knowledge requires learning via input. We have 5 senses as vehicles to learn. All the input sources are unless to a fetus.
Premise1: Saving Faith requires knowledge of Christ
Premise2: A fetus has no knowledge of Christ
Conclusion: A fetus does not have saving faith


"Intellect" as I defined above from a dictionary. NO ONE IS SAVED THAT CANNOT REASON where reason is defined as: declaration made to explain or justify action, decision, or conviction.
A fetus has no intellect. It cannot reason and therefore cannot have saving faith.


We are not talking about children. The subject is the fetus of John and it's ability to have saving faith while being a fetus. Since a fetus does not have knowledge of Christ it cannot have saving faith.

You can have the last word on the subject if you wish. I've stated my stance sufficiently.

1) There is only one way of salvation - by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ.

2) Faith in Jesus Christ is a grace-gift from God, which does not have any intellectual, or age-related pre-requisites.

3) There is no "Plan B", alternate way of salvation, for infants, idiots or the deranged; but, according to your claims, you would either have to consign them all to hell, or teach another way of salvation for them.

4) Anyone who teaches any other way of salvation is accursed, according to the Bible.

Are you sure that you want to be part of 4) ?

 

[Buff Scott Jr.]

Carbon and those of you who are still dialoging this topic on The Fate Of The Unreached, I will add an additional "2-Cents worth."

I suspect you recall the story of Cornelius, a Gentile, as recorded in Acts 10. He is referred to as a “righteous and God-fearing man,” even before he knew about Jesus and the new Way. Cornelius needed additional light. God sent the apostle Peter who revealed a special Light to him and his household in the person of Jesus. Needless to say, many “Cornelouses” have died without coming in contact with that special Light. I entertain no doubt but that they were acceptable to God, even if they were not His covenant people. To put it another way: Wherever there are people like Cornelius, there are people acceptable to God.

Martin Luther’s parents died Roman Catholics. On one occasion, a friend asked him if he believed his parents would be saved in heaven. Luther answered affirmatively. His friend reminded him that he was now opposing Catholicism while believing his Roman Catholic parents would be saved in heaven. The friend goaded him for a clarification of the apparent contradiction. Luther explained that his parents submitted to all the truth they knew or could know at the time, indicating that God does not require the impossible. Luther gave a sensible response. When anyone seeks God’s face and consistently strives to conform to the only revelation he has, God “will give him eternal life” (Romans 2:7).

What else could possibly be required of a man when he responds to the only truth or revelation he knows or can know? Are we ready to exclude him from Paul’s decree that “those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life” (Romans 2:7)? This man in darkest Brazil does good. He seeks glory, honor, and immortality as best he can, based on the only revelation to which he has access—creation. Paul says God “will give him eternal life!” Read it again. Let us not forget that God does not require the impossible of any man. Allow me to express it in this fashion:

There is no condemning guilt when one is unavoidably blind of certain truths and facts. When a man has no occasion to hear of and submit to divine injunctions, and the heart is sincere, there is no convicting guilt credited to his account. In a related passage, Jesus announces, “If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin. Now, however, they have no excuse for their sin” (John 15:22).

Will God take vengeance upon those who do not obey the gospel of Messiah Jesus? Of course He will. The divine testimony says so (I Thess. 1:8). I would be the last to deny or defy this truth. The question is, however: Are there exceptions to this divine piece of legislation? I am compelled to answer in the affirmative.

We all are aware that millions of American Indians lived and died without any opportunity of hearing the name Jesus and responding to His message of salvation. I like to think in terms that some of them responded to the truth they knew or had discovered through God’s creation. If some of these Indians served and honored God through the avenue of nature or created things, but could not honor and glorify His Son because of insufficient opportunities, will His blood not reach them through the avenue of mercy and grace? After all, His blood reaches those who are incapable because of mental incompetence through the avenue of mercy and grace.

I am confident mercy and grace will also compensate for the “good Indian” who honored God through nature, but could not accept Jesus and submit to the Good News because of insufficient opportunities.

As was noted earlier, the Gentiles in Romans who had never been exposed to special revelation in the form of scripture, knew God and could have glorified and given Him thanks through His handiwork, “but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.” These Gentiles or pagans could not have transgressed Jewish law, or the special revelation God gave the Jewish nation, for they were strangers to the Covenant. “And where there is no law there is no transgression” (Romans 4:15). They transgressed the revelation of creation.

And now for the pivotal question: If, in the end of all things, God considers safe those who lacked capabilities, will He not consider saved those honest persons who lacked opportunities? It is not a question of how God’s righteousness is revealed. We agree it is through Jesus. And every person who partakes of God’s righteousness in eternal glory will do so as a result of what Jesus did. No one, absolutely no one, will be saved in heaven separate and apart from what Jesus did. This includes the infant and small child, the severely retarded, and the mentally incompetent.

If I understand correctly the divine testimony, they will reach heaven without having believed in and accepted Jesus! Yes, you heard me correctly. You might inquire, “But how may they reach heaven without having come in contact with the blood of God’s Son?” They cannot. They are not capable of reaching His blood, but His blood is capable of reaching them! Hear me carefully.

His blood reached those saints of old who lived and died under the Law of Moses, although they had no opportunity of formally accepting Jesus as their Savior. And so it is with those who have lived and died under any and all laws, whether the “law of nature,” the Law of Moses, or the law which prevailed prior to Moses. The blood of Jesus will save those under Moses who trusted in God through the revelation He gave them. The blood of Jesus will save those who were unexposed to the Law of Moses but who trusted in God through the revelation of creation. What is true of one must be true of the other. All who respond to the revelation under which they live, and who seek God’s face, regardless of the age or era, will receive God’s grace and mercy in the eternal age to come.​

Next time, I'll have a few questions for all of you to consider.

 

[fastfredy0]

Re: Jesus as a fetus did not have faith

But I'm afraid I have to disagree here. I mainly disagree with that, It seems you are quite sure Jesus as an infant had no faith. I don't believe we could know that. God in comparison to our pea brains, and we can come up with that?

Well, we can't know anything for sure unless God says it is so and He often says in analogies so we have a clue what He is talking about but it seems to me that:
Premise1: We are talking about Jesus human nature
Premise2: There is no indication that any human fetus' has ever had knowledge which is a
prerequisite for saving faith
Premise3: The bible says Jesus grew in wisdom and wisdom requires knowledge. We also know
that Jesus did not know everything (I am sure you know the verse so I won't look it up)
Conclusion: Seems logical to extrapolate that Jesus' human nature pertained to all things human as
implied by His having a human nature. This implies He did not have faith as a fetus.
Similarly, it is implied that Jesus' fetus developed two legs, bones, etc.

Caveat: Granted, God can do anything but us dumb humans have to assume consistency as we are
confused as to God's workings as it is. He's probably laughing at us now (though He is impassive)
*giggle*

 

[fastfredy0]

Anyone who teaches any other way of salvation is accursed, according to the Bible.

Are you sure that you want to be part of 4) ?

Well I said I would give you the last word.... so I will stick to that.

 

[Carbon]

1) There is only one way of salvation - by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ.

Amen to that!

2) Faith in Jesus Christ is a grace-gift from God, which does not have any intellectual, or age-related pre-requisites.

Indeed.

 

[Carbon]

Carbon and those of you who are still dialoging this topic on The Fate Of The Unreached, I will add an additional "2-Cents worth."​

Okay

I suspect you recall the story of Cornelius, a Gentile, as recorded in Acts 10. He is referred to as a “righteous and God-fearing man,” even before he knew about Jesus and the new Way. Cornelius needed additional light. God sent the apostle Peter who revealed a special Light to him and his household in the person of Jesus. Needless to say, many “Cornelouses” have died without coming in contact with that special Light. I entertain no doubt but that they were acceptable to God, even if they were not His covenant people. To put it another way: Wherever there are people like Cornelius, there are people acceptable to God.​

Again I appreciate your thought in putting these together to prove a point. But I disagree. It is God the Holy Spirit that opened his heart to believe, not Paul.

 

[Carbon]

Re: Jesus as a fetus did not have faith


Well, we can't know anything for sure unless God says it is so and He often says in analogies so we have a clue what He is talking about but it seems to me that:
Premise1: We are talking about Jesus human nature
Premise2: There is no indication that any human fetus' has ever had knowledge which is a
prerequisite for saving faith
Premise3: The bible says Jesus grew in wisdom and wisdom requires knowledge. We also know
that Jesus did not know everything (I am sure you know the verse so I won't look it up)
Conclusion: Seems logical to extrapolate that Jesus' human nature pertained to all things human as
implied by His having a human nature. This implies He did not have faith as a fetus.
Similarly, it is implied that Jesus' fetus developed two legs, bones, etc.

Caveat: Granted, God can do anything but us dumb humans have to assume consistency as we are
confused as to God's workings as it is. He's probably laughing at us now (though He is impassive)
*giggle*

I appreciate your point, as usual. But I still disagree. But thats okay.

 

[fastfredy0]

When anyone seeks God’s face and consistently strives to conform to the only revelation he has, God “will give him eternal life” (Romans 2:7).

Two problems
The bible says no one seeks God. (Romans 3:11)
Your solution involves works. The bible says we are not saved by works. Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 11:6
God's words are what count and not Luther's opinion.
Gal. 5:2-6 says those who seek salvation via works are accursed.

 

[Carbon]

Two problems
The bible says no one seeks God. (Romans 3:11)
Your solution involves works. The bible says we are not saved by works. Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 11:6
God's words are what count and not Luther's opinion.
Gal. 5:2-6 says those who seek salvation via works are accursed.

Amen!

 

[fastfredy0]

No one who thinks a person who has never heard of Christ can be saved has addressed these verses:

• John 3:18 Whoever believes and has decided to trust in Him [as personal Savior and Lord] is not judged [for this one, there is no judgment, no rejection, no condemnation]; but the one who does not believe [and has decided to reject Him as personal Savior and Lord] is judged already [that one has been convicted and sentenced], because he has not believed and trusted in the name of the [One and] only begotten Son of God [the One who is truly unique, the only One of His kind, the One who alone can save him].
• John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
• John 5:23 so that all will give honor (reverence, homage) to the Son just as they give honor to the Father. [In fact] the one who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who has sent Him.
• John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him [giving him the desire to come to Me]; and I will raise him up [from the dead] on the last day.
• John 14:5 Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going; so how can we know the way?” 6 Jesus said to him, “I am the [only] Way [to God] and the [real] Truth and the [real] Life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
• John 12:48 Whoever rejects Me and refuses to accept My teachings, has one who judges him; the very word that I spoke will judge and condemn him on the last day.
• Romans 3:22 This righteousness of God comes through faith in Jesus Christ for all those [Jew or Gentile] who believe [and trust in Him and acknowledge Him as God’s Son].
• Romans 10:13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord [in prayer] will be saved.” 14 But how will people call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how will they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher (messenger)? 15 And how will they preach unless they are commissioned and sent [for that purpose]? Just as it is written and forever remains written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news of good things!”
• 1 Corinthians 6:22 If anyone has no love for the Lord, let him be accursed.
• 1 John 2:23 No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also.
• 1 John 3:3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus [acknowledging that He has come in the flesh, but would deny any of the Son’s true nature] is not of God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming, and is now already in the world.

What does Christ say about the Gentiles while He was on earth where said Gentiles had not heard of Him ... Ephesians 2:12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.

Let's deal with scripture rather than conjecture.
Aside: I thing @Josheb brought up some of these verses. No one answered. Let's try again.

Extra reading on the subject at Inclusivism vs. exclusivism-what does the Bible say? | GotQuestions.org

 

[David1701]

Well I said I would give you the last word.... so I will stick to that.

He said, not sticking to it.

This is very important, not merely some intellectual debating matter. When God's word says that anyone who teaches any other way of salvation (salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus Christ alone) is accursed, he means it. I would not want anyone on this forum to be in that situation.

 

[David1701]

No one who thinks a person who has never heard of Christ can be saved has addressed these verses:

• John 3:18 Whoever believes and has decided to trust in Him [as personal Savior and Lord] is not judged [for this one, there is no judgment, no rejection, no condemnation]; but the one who does not believe [and has decided to reject Him as personal Savior and Lord] is judged already [that one has been convicted and sentenced], because he has not believed and trusted in the name of the [One and] only begotten Son of God [the One who is truly unique, the only One of His kind, the One who alone can save him].
• John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
• John 5:23 so that all will give honor (reverence, homage) to the Son just as they give honor to the Father. [In fact] the one who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who has sent Him.
• John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him [giving him the desire to come to Me]; and I will raise him up [from the dead] on the last day.
• John 14:5 Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going; so how can we know the way?” 6 Jesus said to him, “I am the [only] Way [to God] and the [real] Truth and the [real] Life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
• John 12:48 Whoever rejects Me and refuses to accept My teachings, has one who judges him; the very word that I spoke will judge and condemn him on the last day.
• Romans 3:22 This righteousness of God comes through faith in Jesus Christ for all those [Jew or Gentile] who believe [and trust in Him and acknowledge Him as God’s Son].
• Romans 10:13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord [in prayer] will be saved.” 14 But how will people call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how will they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher (messenger)? 15 And how will they preach unless they are commissioned and sent [for that purpose]? Just as it is written and forever remains written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news of good things!”
• 1 Corinthians 6:22 If anyone has no love for the Lord, let him be accursed.
• 1 John 2:23 No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also.
• 1 John 3:3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus [acknowledging that He has come in the flesh, but would deny any of the Son’s true nature] is not of God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming, and is now already in the world.

What does Christ say about the Gentiles while He was on earth where said Gentiles had not heard of Him ... Ephesians 2:12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.

Let's deal with scripture rather than conjecture.
Aside: I thing @Josheb brought up some of these verses. No one answered. Let's try again.

Extra reading on the subject at Inclusivism vs. exclusivism-what does the Bible say? | GotQuestions.org

Firstly, which dreadful translation are you using? Is it the Amplified Bible? Some of what you have quoted is certainly not sound.

Anyway, I'll go through the verses.

John 3:18 (Webster) He that believeth on him, is not condemned: but he that believeth not, is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God.

Those who do not believe are already condemned, since believing in Jesus is the only way out of the condemnation is which all men naturally are, since the fall of Adam.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son, hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son, shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

This is similar to the first quoted verse. The wrath of God is already on those who are unbelievers and believing on the Son of God is the only way out of that condition.

John 5:22-24
22 For the Father judgeth no man; but hath committed all judgment to the Son:
23 That all men should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He that honoreth not the Son, honoreth not the Father who hath sent him.
24 Verily, verily, I say to you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but hath passed from death to life.

Unbelievers (whether or not they have heard the gospel is irrelevant) are in a state of death. Those who hear and believe the gospel have passed from death to life.

to be contd.

 

[David1701]

No one who thinks a person who has never heard of Christ can be saved has addressed these verses:

• John 3:18 Whoever believes and has decided to trust in Him [as personal Savior and Lord] is not judged [for this one, there is no judgment, no rejection, no condemnation]; but the one who does not believe [and has decided to reject Him as personal Savior and Lord] is judged already [that one has been convicted and sentenced], because he has not believed and trusted in the name of the [One and] only begotten Son of God [the One who is truly unique, the only One of His kind, the One who alone can save him].
• John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
• John 5:23 so that all will give honor (reverence, homage) to the Son just as they give honor to the Father. [In fact] the one who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who has sent Him.
• John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him [giving him the desire to come to Me]; and I will raise him up [from the dead] on the last day.
• John 14:5 Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going; so how can we know the way?” 6 Jesus said to him, “I am the [only] Way [to God] and the [real] Truth and the [real] Life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
• John 12:48 Whoever rejects Me and refuses to accept My teachings, has one who judges him; the very word that I spoke will judge and condemn him on the last day.
• Romans 3:22 This righteousness of God comes through faith in Jesus Christ for all those [Jew or Gentile] who believe [and trust in Him and acknowledge Him as God’s Son].
• Romans 10:13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord [in prayer] will be saved.” 14 But how will people call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how will they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher (messenger)? 15 And how will they preach unless they are commissioned and sent [for that purpose]? Just as it is written and forever remains written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news of good things!”
• 1 Corinthians 6:22 If anyone has no love for the Lord, let him be accursed.
• 1 John 2:23 No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also.
• 1 John 3:3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus [acknowledging that He has come in the flesh, but would deny any of the Son’s true nature] is not of God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming, and is now already in the world.

What does Christ say about the Gentiles while He was on earth where said Gentiles had not heard of Him ... Ephesians 2:12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.

Let's deal with scripture rather than conjecture.
Aside: I thing @Josheb brought up some of these verses. No one answered. Let's try again.

Extra reading on the subject at Inclusivism vs. exclusivism-what does the Bible say? | GotQuestions.org

Contd. from my previous post.

John 6:44, 45
44 No man can come to me, except the Father who hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught from God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned from the Father, cometh to me.

No-one can come to Jesus (who is the only Saviour) unless the Father draws him. If the Father draws him, then Jesus will raise him up at the last day. Hearing and learning from the Father are necessary and sufficient to cause one to come to Jesus; and will be given to all the elect.

John 14:5, 6
5 Thomas saith to him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
6 Jesus saith to him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no man cometh to the Father, but by me.

No-one comes to the Father, except by Jesus. There is no other way of salvation than by faith in Jesus Christ.

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Those who hear the gospel and reject it will be judged in the last day by the word that Jesus has spoken.

Rom. 3:20-26
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law, there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being testified by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God, which is by faith of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all them that believe; for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace, through the redemption that is in Jesus Christ:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he may be just, and the justifier of him who believeth in Jesus.

Justification is only by believing in Jesus, not by works. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God; and the only way out of condemnation for that, is through faith in the blood of Christ.

Rom. 10:8-14
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach:
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thy heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth to righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made to salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, whoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all, is rich to all that call upon him,
13 For whoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Salvation is through believing in Jesus Christ and calling upon his name. How can those be saved who have not heard? They cannot, which is why God's people have a duty (and privilege) to share the gospel.

Having said the above, God can get the gospel to people without a preacher, as some missionaries have discovered. Some unreached tribes were found to have had dreams in which they received the gospel and there were already some believers there, when the missionaries arrived. Some Muslims have also been saved through such dreams; but, faith in Jesus is always the way of salvation.

1 Cor. 16:22 If any man loveth not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema, Maran-atha.

Anyone who does not love the Lord Jesus Christ is accursed (whether or not he has heard the gospel is irrelevant). The way out of that accursed state, in which all unbelievers are, is through faith in Jesus Christ.

1 John 2:22, 23
22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23 Whoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: but he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

Those who deny the Father and the Son are anti-Christs (including those in false religions). Everyone who acknowledges the Son (and how can he do that unless he has been given faith in Jesus?) has the Father also.

1 John 4:1-3
1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
2 By this ye know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ hath come in the flesh, is from God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh, is not from God. And this is that spirit of antichrist, of which ye have heard that it should come; and even now already it is in the world.

Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh, with the result that he continues to be in the flesh (Greek perfect tense), is from God. Anyone who does not so confess is not from God, but is an anti-Christ.

Eph. 2:11-13
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now, in Christ Jesus, ye, who formerly were far off, are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Unbelieving Gentiles have no hope (no steadfast confidence for the future) and are without God. The way out of this is through faith in the shed blood of Christ.


Not one of these verses remotely supports your case; in fact, most of them show it to be utterly wrong. There is no other way of salvation than through faith in Jesus Christ!

 

[Red Baker]

I desire to comment on this thread, just do not have time at the moment, maybe later today, if not, early in the morning.

I will only say this for now~salvation from sin and condemnation is totally the work of God's Spirit, which he does not use MEANS, and under that word you can add anything you desire, yet salvation from sin and condemnation is not by the will of the flesh, nor, the will of another man, period.

The gospel is nothing more than a source of information concerning the testimony of God of how one is born again~and God's testimony is that it is ALL OF GOD, apart from any means, which some have been mentioned in this thread, all of which are in error~even one's faith plays no part in his new birth, faith is the fruit of the indwelling Spirit.

There will be thousands of millions that will inherit eternal life that have never heard of Jesus Christ. Those who had been born of the Spirit of God will live according to the light which God was pleased to give to them.

There will be some infants that will not inherit eternal life, some will; there will be some feeble minded folks that will inherit eternal life, some will not; etc. Eternal life is by two immutable acts of God, his promises of grace and his oath to the seed of Jesus Christ, there will be no exceptions. Jesús Christ secured eternal life for all that God gave to him, and for no others.

Coming to the knowledge of the truth is a practical salvation that only a few will ever enjoy, and among those, none will ever have prefect knowledge without some errors.

Salvation from sin and condemnation is 100% by God's grace given freely on the behalf of Jesus Christ for those he died for.

Later....RB

 

[Red Baker]

(Notice that all of the above were born before Adam died. All were capable of hearing 1st hand knowledge of the garden of Eden from Adam himself.)

(Notice that all of the above were born before Noah’s son died. All were capable of hearing 1st hand knowledge of the flood from Shem, son of Noah, himself.)

With all due respect, the timeline provided is a subject that I would disagree with, but that for another discussion since it would not serve this thread's topic.

The new birth is not by the will of the flesh, nor by the will of another man's power to convince sinful man. Jesus Christ spoke as no man has ever spoken, what good did it do for his generation in which he lived?

 

[Red Baker]

There is only one way of salvation - through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

There is only one way of knowing that that person has eternal life~it comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. But, that being said, our faith which is so imperfect is not the means of receiving the forgiveness of sin, that comes by the faith and obedience of one person, Jesus Christ. Galatians 2:16; Romans 5:19; etc.

If anyone preaches any other way of salvation, let him be accursed.

Salvation from sin and condemnation is through the obedience of one person~Jesus Christ, God's Son secured eternal life for God's elect by himself~we believe in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by his life alone, not by any work that we have done, or will do.

Romans 3:22​

“Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:”

 

[Josheb]

What else could possibly be required of a man when he responds to the only truth or revelation he knows or can know?​

A man can know no truth or revelation but that which God gives him.

Are we ready to exclude him from Paul’s decree that “those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life” (Romans 2:7)?​

Yes, and I remind everyone you've abuse the verse. The verse is not about how the unregenerate become regenerate. The verse is about the regenerate not bringing wrath upon themselves when already saved.

This man in darkest Brazil does good.​

Not according to scripture. There is no one who is good. ALL have sinned and fal short of God's glory.

He seeks glory, honor, and immortality as best he can, based on the only revelation to which he has access—creation.​

No, he does not. If that were true then it would be impossible for him (or anyone else) to improve his life in any way. Not only is that the case the God would be the only one who could improve that man's life and that would have to happen coercively. The man who is doing the best he can, cannot do better. Furthermore, salvation is not by works. That man's "best" is worthless. It will not save him. Every single individual who stands before God on Sentencing Day and says, "Hey, God Almighty, I did my best," while with every cell of his body drenched in sin and no Jesus to cover him is tossed into the fiery lake.

There is not a single verse in the Bible of someone offering the plea, "I did my best."

Will God take vengeance upon those who do not obey the gospel of Messiah Jesus? Of course He will.​

Even if he did the best he can?

Will God take vengeance upon those who do not obey the gospel of Messiah Jesus? Of course He will. The divine testimony says so (I Thess. 1:8).​

(Re-)Checking that reference is in order. Either that, or a class in exegesis is in order. That verse says nothing about

1 Thessalonians 1:8
For the word of the Lord has sounded forth from you, not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but in every place the news of your faith toward God has gone out, so that we have no need to say anything.

No mention of vengeance. No mention of the unregenerate's faith. No mention of anyone disobeying the gospel.

I would be the last to deny or defy this truth.​

Please re-read this opening post and the rest of the thread because that is exactly what has happened. This op says certain people can and will make it into heaven even though they have disobeyed the gospel. They will (supposedly) make it into heaven simply because they are members of one of the specified minority classes (infants, retards, nutcases, etc.). According to this op, a person can live his/her entire life in disobedience to the gospel he's never heard and be saved if he's young enough, sufficiently intellectually undeveloped or incapacitated, or insane enough.

The question is, however: Are there exceptions to this divine piece of legislation? I am compelled to answer in the affirmative.​

No, you're not "compelled." Bad choice of words. The facts os scripture are that salvation is a very singular and exclusive condition and there is only one way to get into heaven: Jesus, crucified, resurrected, and ascendant. He alone is the way to the Father, and there is no other name in heaven or earth by which a person can be or will be saved. You have, in fact, denied the truth of God's vengeance on the disobedient.

We all are aware that millions of American Indians lived and died without any opportunity of hearing the name Jesus and responding to His message of salvation.​

No, they did not. That which is known about God is evident within them because God made it evident to them. His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen and since the world was created. What can be known about God is understood through what has been made, so that every single native American who has ever lived is without excuse (Rom. 1:18ff). They fact that they worshipped other nature and gods of their own creation testifies to their knowing, willful disobedience. Although they knew God (through the testimony of His creation), they did not honor Him as God. Instead, they exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for images in the form of corruptible man, of birds, animals and other creatures.

I like to think in terms that some of them responded to the truth they knew or had discovered through God’s creation.​

And those that did were/will be saved. They rest will not.

I am confident mercy and grace will also compensate for the “good Indian” who honored God through nature, but could not accept Jesus and submit to the Good News because of insufficient opportunities.​

No one is good.

If I understand correctly the divine testimony, they will reach heaven without having believed in and accepted Jesus! Yes, you heard me correctly. You might inquire, “But how may they reach heaven without having come in contact with the blood of God’s Son?” They cannot. They are not capable of reaching His blood, but His blood is capable of reaching them! Hear me carefully.​

Think it through. What you're saying means 1) there is salvation from sin on the other side of the grave and 2) the blood of Christ which normally changes a person's entire disposition on this side of the grave and facilities good works accordingly, will not be able to do its normal work.

This is a bad soteriology, Buff.

According to Hebrews, humans are made to live once and then face judgment. We are not made to live once, get one final opportunity to change before being judged, and then get judged. Death is the ultimate apologetic; the penultimate evangelistic moment. In death we come face-to-face with the reality we are not in charge and never have been. We come violently face to face with the reality we ALL fell short, even those who did believe in Jesus correctly.

His blood reached those saints of old who lived and died under the Law of Moses, although they had no opportunity of formally accepting Jesus as their Savior.

We do not know that. According to Galatians 3 the gospel was preached to Abraham. Paul did not say, "one of the many gospels possible was preached to Abraham." Paul plainly stated THE gospel was preached to him and he believed. We do not have a record of all that God spoke to Abraham, BUT we do have a report the gospel was preached to him. We know he, Abraham, understood the promises were not achieved by genetics or works. We know he knew and understood the promises would require the sacrifice of a son and we know he knew and understood God would provide the sacrifice, and even if that son died God was able to bring him back from the grave. We also know Abraham was NOT looking for earthly land or an earthly city made by human hands, but for a city built by God.

Abraham heard, knew, and believed the gospel.

It is, therefore, possible God has shared the gospel, His gospel with other individuals throughout the world, throughout history, exactly as He did with that one individual man living in what was then pagan Babylon. We know David knew of the promised kingdom, knew God was king and not himself (Daivd). He knew there'd be a son of God who would built God's temple, and he too knew of the resurrection. He too looked forward to a city not built by human hands. There are many like Abraham and David in the Old Testament. Hebrews 11 is a short list of them. That list is not exhaustive and there is no reason to think God did not reveal Himself to other individuals in pagan lands (like Seth, or Noah, Naaman, or Nebuchadnezzar).

And so it is with those who have lived and died under any and all laws, whether the “law of nature,” the Law of Moses, or the law which prevailed prior to Moses.​

Here's what scripture does explicitly report:

• All have sinned and fall short of God's glory.
• The wages of sin is death.
• The pagan shows the work of the God's law is written in their hearts every time their conscience testifies to that condition.
• Salvation is not found in anyone but Jesus.

What it does not report is get-out-of-sentencing caveats.

 

[Josheb]

The blood of Jesus will save those under Moses who trusted in God through the revelation He gave them.​

Not unless that revelation included the gospel. Those who place their hope in the Law will die. The Law itself is powerless to free a person from the law of sin and death. Paul wrote to the saints in Galatia and stated those who seek justification by the Law are obligated to keep the whole Law, any saint who does so has "been severed from Christ," and "fallen from grace." Salvation is by grace through faith and salvation by grace is a gift of God, not of ourselves. That is what God revealed..... and Abraham understood that. We know this because scripture later reveals to us Abraham was justified and deemed righteous by faith, not faithfulness (works).

The blood of Jesus will save those who were unexposed to the Law of Moses but who trusted in God through the revelation of creation.​

Only if God ALSO revealed salvation by grace to them. This entire thread boils down to a simple dichotomy. Is it necessary for God to reveal Himself in order specifically for the purpose of salvation from the deadly, enslaving, blinding sin for an individual to be saved, or is it possible for a person to live their entire life in sin, never receive the revelation of God from God, and still be saved in his ignorance?

The unreached do not get saved.

But no one is unreached. This is the fundamental error in the op. It assumes there are those who are unreached, and that assumption is made in spite of the fact 1) scripture is not primarily or predominantly about what happens to the supposedly unreached, and 2) scripture does provide a few examples of those outside the predominant report of scripture receiving revelation and becoming saved...... by grace through faith.

Ignorance is sin! Ignorance is part of the problem to be solved, not an exemption.

What is true of one must be true of the other. All who respond to the revelation under which they live, and who seek God’s face, regardless of the age or era, will receive God’s grace and mercy in the eternal age to come.​

And, once again, you're contradicting yourself. The op's case is predicated on "the unreached." It cannot be said the unreached have received revelation and will then receive grace and mercy. If they received revelation, then they are not unreached and if they are unreached then they have not received revelation. Furthermore, God revealing Himself salvifically is an act of grace; it is THE act of grace by which a person is saved. It is the receipt of that grace on this side of the grave that decides what happens on the other side of the grave, and God has not made Himself dependent upon the sinfully dead and enslaved sinful sinner, nor has He in any way abdicated His power and authority and surrendered it to the sinner.

He saves who He wants to save, and He is fully aware of every single sinful sinner and every sinful condition of the sinful sinner (like the sinner's infancy, ignorance, lack of development, and mental incapacity). He is also fully capable of saving every single one of them despite those conditions without their consent.

Next time, I'll have a few questions for all of you to consider.

Once again, consider what you've just said. You will not answer our questions, but you expect us to answer yours. The expectation your pov will be considered exists without any expectation our views will be given equal consideration or credence. If that is not the intended message that will be reflected in the future conversation(s). If that is the intent, then please 1) say so, and 2) reconsider.

 

[Arial]

Agreed... Romans 1 says the people via nature (general revelation) perceive God and are without excuse. But we are talking about salvation and Romans 1 does not mention the topic of salvation.
The topic at hand is the salvation of those who never heard of Christ (I am assuming the time period after Christ's death). Scripture in many places says we are saved by faith and a component of faith is knowledge and scripture says knowledge of Christ is necessary for salvation. I listed 4 verses in post #8 to back me up. I can list more.
I asked you what one must do to be saved if one never heard of Christ. I repeat the question, please site verse(s) to back up your contention.
Thx

If I may jump in here. There are a few scriptures I will bring up. If someone already has, I apologize. I have not read the entire thread.

We know from Eph 2:8-9 that it is God who gives the faith necessary for salvation, and that he does so by grace. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

We read in Romans 12:3 that faith is given to individuals according to the measure of faith that God has assigned. For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly that he ought to think, but to think with sober judgement, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned. That too, by grace.

If we look back to Abraham who was long before the coming of Christ, and yet serves as the father to those who have faith, we find Jesus saying this about that in John 8:56 Your Father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad."

That last Scripture tells us that we do not from the biblical account of events, all that is the minds of those with faith in the OT. Jesus here reveals one thing that was in Abraham's mind and thoughts. He saw something not yet revealed.

If we take out of the equation the idea that the necessary faith for salvation is something we do and have, and turn again to remember that salvation is monergistic through and through; That all of God's sheep, past, present, and future, will hear the voice of Christ and follow him; then we realize God does what God does in the way that he does it. Christ has always been God. Christ has always been present in the activity of God. He did not begin being God when he came as one of us and died in our place. That is when he became God and man. His coming is not the beginning of redemption. It is redemption accomplished.