FATE OF THE UNREACHED

[David1701]

That would be my guess. Do you have a scripture to back up the "faith in the Messiah" is necessary for salvation?

Your "guess"? What about all the (many) scriptures pointing to a coming Saviour? The reader/hearer of the OT was (and is) responsible to believe what it says; and disbelief in the promised Saviour is tantamount to disbelieving in salvation.

I know John made a movement in his mother's womb but do you have a verse saying God gave him, a fetus at the time, faith?

John the Baby leapt for joy, in his mother's womb, at the presence of Jesus. You don't do that, if you don't have faith.

 

[Buff Scott Jr.]

Well, you used Romans 1 to substantiate your claim that those who never heard of Christ can be saved. Logic dictates if one does so the scripture quoted MUST BE relevant.


Oh, so if someone is a murderer and liar or whatever, they can be saved by the revelation of creation ... heck, lots of people believe a god created everything. So, those in Islam and Buddhists are be saved by their believing the doctrine of the revelation of creation. So, a missionary goes to someone that believes in the doctrine of the revelation of creation ... would it be prudent to not tell him of Christ for if he does not believe in Christ he might lose his salvation ... is one saved by believing in either 1) the doctrine of the revelation of creation OR 2) Christ? If one believe in Christ but not the revelation of creation is he saved or condemned?

I'd like to be pointed to a Christian website that speaks of the salvation of men who believe in the revelation of creation.

Question: Romans 1 doesn't mention salvation and yet you believe one can be saved by believing the contents of Romans 1. What other places in scripture mentions things other than Christ, that if believe can save a person?


The following verses contradict your contention:

• Romans 8:7 the mind of the flesh [with its sinful pursuits] is actively hostile to God. It does not submit itself to God’s law, since it cannot, 8 those who are in the flesh cannot please God
• 1 Corinthians 2:14 The natural [unregenerate] person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God [regeneration comes from the Spirit of God], for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually [the Holy Spirit] discerned.
• Romans 3:10-18 “None is righteous, no, not one; 11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.

I agree that the ignorant of Christ will be penalized less.

I will comment on the following two paragraphs by you and then lay my pen down, for we have chewed this topic to pieces. I will continue reading what you offer, but my responses have ended following this reply.

"Oh, so if someone is a murderer and liar or whatever, they can be saved by the revelation of creation ... heck, lots of people believe a god created everything. So, those in Islam and Buddhists are be saved by their believing the doctrine of the revelation of creation."

You are twisting and distorting what I have said. Any evil competent person who is not exposed to any kind of written and spoken message from Heaven can accept the God of creation by acknowledging Him via the REVELATION OF CREATION and ceasing his evil ways, just as the pagans could have done, as recorded in Romans 1. Paul makes it very clear.

"So, a missionary goes to someone that believes in the doctrine of the revelation of creation ... would it be prudent to not tell him of Christ for if he does not believe in Christ he might lose his salvation ... is one saved by believing in either 1) the doctrine of the revelation of creation OR 2) Christ? If one believe in Christ but not the revelation of creation is he saved or condemned?"

A Missionary's mission is to tell others about the risen Christ in an attempt to win him to the One who saves. The revelation of creation does not nor cannot apply here. So, what saves an exposed person? God, through His Son Jesus. What can save a person who is totally unexposed to any form of written and spoken message, such as those in Romans 1? Acknowledging God via the revelation of creation. "And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind...[Rom. 1:28-29].

So long—thanks for sharing.​

 

[Carbon]

Question In Closing— May a person reach heaven without believing in and knowing the Person of Jesus? It is my perception that among those who will be in heaven without believing in and knowing the Person of Jesus will be infants and small children, the severely retarded, and the mentally incompetent. I have also added the “honest unexposed” or uninformed—those receptive to celestial truth [see John 15:22 and Rom. 1:18-25 again].​

Thanks for expressing your thoughts and feelings. All of us good people that were born since the time of Adam sure do deserve a chance, huh. Even those infants who don’t know Jesus, the mentally incompetent and especially perhaps who were never exposed to the gospel.
All the poor people.

Where does God come in, in this? Do you believe God does not know where the unexposed are? Do you believe He is not capable to reach them?

Or do you believe God forgets?

 

[Buff Scott Jr.]

Thanks for expressing your thoughts and feelings. All of us good people that were born since the time of Adam sure do deserve a chance, huh. Even those infants who don’t know Jesus, the mentally incompetent and especially perhaps who were never exposed to the gospel.
All the poor people.

Where does God come in, in this? Do you believe God does not know where the unexposed are? Do you believe He is not capable to reach them?

Or do you believe God forgets?

Hello Carbon:

Thanks for your remarks. I closed my exchange with fastfredy0 a few minutes ago, but you have covered a matter or two, as well as a couple of questions, I feel a need to address.

It is not my intention to play God. I do not wish to sit upon the Supreme Judgment Seat by advancing the view that many responsible adults who were never exposed to special revelation will presumably be delivered eternally by God’s mercy. I favor this position because I’m convinced heaven addresses this question. I do not harbor an insatiable urge to condemn others because they are, or were, unavoidably ignorant of certain facts, events, and truths. It is my position that under certain conditions, God will liberate many who lived and died without a special revelation in the form of audible or written messages.

By the “unreached,” I mean those mentally competent and responsible men and women who were receptive to truth, any truth, but who died without any opportunity whatsoever of hearing the Good News about Jesus and responding to it. In other words, I'm speaking of adults who had no occasion to be exposed to any kind of special disclosure, whether by direct contact with God, Jesus, angels, prophets, apostles—or by way of scripture. We will not address those who were or could have been exposed to some form of special revelation but neglected or refused to accept the opening. They are not included in this study.

Numerous members of the human family—from Adam to Moses—were exposed to special revelations by way of direct contact with God, angels, or prophets. Heavenly messages in the form of scripture were not available until God commissioned and guided Moses to write decrees, commandments, laws, instructions, and events. Following Moses, and up to our present time, many segments of the human family have been exposed to some form of special revelation—whether God, Jesus, angels, prophets, apostles, or scripture. The remainder of humankind has been without special revelations in that they have not been exposed to any.

In affirming they have been without special revelations, I do not wish to infer they have been without any revelation. In one way or another, God has always communicated with His creation. It is that in some ages He has chosen to communicate with certain peoples and nations in special ways. And while the Holy Scriptures are for all of mankind today, there are countless millions who have no access to them because opportunity has not availed itself. Yet, these millions have a revelation from God through the things He created.

Since the very beginning, God has revealed Himself to every member of the human creation. He has never left his creation without some form of revelation or witness, even those nations and peoples who have been outside of covenant relationship—such as the Gentiles under the Old Covenant era. God has made Himself known to every kindred and nation under heaven. Every person has been able to “seek Him and perhaps reach out for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each of us” (Acts 17:27). God has, in fact, always been aware of His whole creation, having “determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live” (Acts 17:26). God is alive in the universe! He knows of and is interested in everyone’s plight.

Since God has never required the impossible in any age, it seems to me He will show mercy to those who seek His face, regardless of the revelation under which they have lived or may be living. Note the qualification: Those who seek His face. This is the key. The man in darkest Brazil who responds to the only revelation to which he has access—the revelation of creation, although unexposed to scripture and has never heard the name Jesus, is glorifying God and will therefore be delivered by His mercy and grace. God’s creation is the only revelation he knows. He responds to that revelation by trusting in a Supreme Being and giving thanks to Him, as the pagans in Romans could have done.​

 

[Carbon]

Hello Carbon:

Thanks for your remarks. I closed my exchange with fastfredy0 a few minutes ago, but you have covered a matter or two, as well as a couple of questions, I feel a need to address.

It is not my intention to play God. I do not wish to sit upon the Supreme Judgment Seat by advancing the view that many responsible adults who were never exposed to special revelation will presumably be delivered eternally by God’s mercy. I favor this position because I’m convinced heaven addresses this question. I do not harbor an insatiable urge to condemn others because they are, or were, unavoidably ignorant of certain facts, events, and truths. It is my position that under certain conditions, God will liberate many who lived and died without a special revelation in the form of audible or written messages.

By the “unreached,” I mean those mentally competent and responsible men and women who were receptive to truth, any truth, but who died without any opportunity whatsoever of hearing the Good News about Jesus and responding to it. In other words, I'm speaking of adults who had no occasion to be exposed to any kind of special disclosure, whether by direct contact with God, Jesus, angels, prophets, apostles—or by way of scripture. We will not address those who were or could have been exposed to some form of special revelation but neglected or refused to accept the opening. They are not included in this study.

Numerous members of the human family—from Adam to Moses—were exposed to special revelations by way of direct contact with God, angels, or prophets. Heavenly messages in the form of scripture were not available until God commissioned and guided Moses to write decrees, commandments, laws, instructions, and events. Following Moses, and up to our present time, many segments of the human family have been exposed to some form of special revelation—whether God, Jesus, angels, prophets, apostles, or scripture. The remainder of humankind has been without special revelations in that they have not been exposed to any.

In affirming they have been without special revelations, I do not wish to infer they have been without any revelation. In one way or another, God has always communicated with His creation. It is that in some ages He has chosen to communicate with certain peoples and nations in special ways. And while the Holy Scriptures are for all of mankind today, there are countless millions who have no access to them because opportunity has not availed itself. Yet, these millions have a revelation from God through the things He created.

Since the very beginning, God has revealed Himself to every member of the human creation. He has never left his creation without some form of revelation or witness, even those nations and peoples who have been outside of covenant relationship—such as the Gentiles under the Old Covenant era. God has made Himself known to every kindred and nation under heaven. Every person has been able to “seek Him and perhaps reach out for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each of us” (Acts 17:27). God has, in fact, always been aware of His whole creation, having “determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live” (Acts 17:26). God is alive in the universe! He knows of and is interested in everyone’s plight.

Since God has never required the impossible in any age, it seems to me He will show mercy to those who seek His face, regardless of the revelation under which they have lived or may be living. Note the qualification: Those who seek His face. This is the key. The man in darkest Brazil who responds to the only revelation to which he has access—the revelation of creation, although unexposed to scripture and has never heard the name Jesus, is glorifying God and will therefore be delivered by His mercy and grace. God’s creation is the only revelation he knows. He responds to that revelation by trusting in a Supreme Being and giving thanks to Him, as the pagans in Romans could have done.​

Thanks for your reply.
I do not believe God is obligated to give revelation or special revelation to anyone. There is no scripture proof for that whatsoever. Those who are left alone, simply, finally perish. And not to sound cold, but in that case, at least for now that’s mercy. Because finally being cast into the lake of fire isn’t mercy, it’s justice.

But thanks again for sharing your beliefs.

 

[fastfredy0]

Re: That would be my guess. Do you have a scripture to back up the "faith in the Messiah" is necessary for salvation?

Your "guess"? What about all the (many) scriptures pointing to a coming Saviour? The reader/hearer of the OT was (and is) responsible to believe what it says; and disbelief in the promised Saviour is tantamount to disbelieving in salvation.

You did not satisfy my request. I agreed that are O.T. scriptures speaking of the come Messiah. I asked you to provide a scripture to substantiate you conjecture that "before Jesus one was saved by faith in the coming Messiah". I ask again, give a scripture showing the result of believing in the coming Messiah is part of salvific faith for those that died before Jesus.

John the Baby leapt for joy, in his mother's womb, at the presence of Jesus. You don't do that, if you don't have faith

Luke 1:41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.
I think you are reading into scripture what is not there. Empirical evidence shows there has never been a fetus that is cogent. Faith requires knowledge. Faith cometh by hearing. Fetus' cannot hear, they are not cogent. Even Christ himself had to grow in knowledge and wisdom (Luke 2:52).

I challenge you to find any theologian on the internet that supports your contention that John the Baptist had saving faith while in his mommies womb. (not that that is proof, but this idea is way out there IMO).

 

[Carbon]

I challenge you to find any theologian on the internet that supports your contention that John the Baptist had saving faith while in his mommies womb. (not that that is proof, but this idea is way out there IMO).

I can’t see finding anyone that could explain it how we could understand it if John the Baptist did indeed have faith.
Who’s to say John wasn’t regenerated?
Or just jumped for joy from being touched by the Spirit.

 

[makesends]

Re: That would be my guess. Do you have a scripture to back up the "faith in the Messiah" is necessary for salvation?

You did not satisfy my request. I agreed that are O.T. scriptures speaking of the come Messiah. I asked you to provide a scripture to substantiate you conjecture that "before Jesus one was saved by faith in the coming Messiah". I ask again, give a scripture showing the result of believing in the coming Messiah is part of salvific faith for those that died before Jesus.



Luke 1:41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.
I think you are reading into scripture what is not there. Empirical evidence shows there has never been a fetus that is cogent. Faith requires knowledge. Faith cometh by hearing. Fetus' cannot hear, they are not cogent. Even Christ himself had to grow in knowledge and wisdom (Luke 2:52).

I challenge you to find any theologian on the internet that supports your contention that John the Baptist had saving faith while in his mommies womb. (not that that is proof, but this idea is way out there IMO).

To me the question isn't whether or not John the Baptist had saving faith while still in the womb, but whether @David1701 has a valid hermeneutic. It's one thing to think, believe, assume, make the logical leap, that one wouldn't jump for joy if not by faith. It is quite another to teach it as God's own truth.

 

[Mr GLee]

Regardless of whether or not the term "salvation" is employed in Romans 1, the truth is that those pagans could have been saved eternally by acknowledging that a Higher Power is there and that He is the Author of the universe. In other words, their only revelation from Heaven was the revelation of creation. By accepting that fact, they could have been eternally redeemed. As I noted earlier:

"If I understand Jesus’ intend correctly, He [Jesus] seems to be saying. There is no condemning guilt when one is unavoidably blind of certain truths and facts [John 15:22]. When a man has no occasion to hear of and submit to divine injunctions, and his heart is sincere, there is no convicting guilt accredited to his account."

To put it another way, he will be saved although he is not a "member of your church" and has not adopted your doctrinal status!​

I would offer

Moses after 1/3 of human history has passed by was then moved by the Holy Spirit to write the letter of law scripture. It does not mean it was not binding before. Truth is truth . . .It has no expiration date.

Prophets sent with the word were here beginning with Abel the Apostle the second born to represent the born again doctrine. He was murdered by his brother Cain under the lying power of the father of lies a murderer from that very beginning .

Genisis 4:25-26 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew. And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name (Power) of the Lord.

God replaced that second born with Enos. It was then when mankind understood they must be born again, before men began to call for help .
He spoke to many prophets unknown to us prophets as believers. Not each one was written down . Finishing 2000 years ago the book of law (not philopshical theories

The gospel is the good detailed news as a law.

Remember the bible as to the letter is "death the "gospel" as to the spiritual understanding is eternal life.

Not acknowledging that a Higher Power is there and that He is the author of the universe. It does not represent the gospel .It does represent ones imagination .You could say good guess

The heavens according to the law (Bible ) declare the of the glory of God but "say nothing" of his loving salvation plan and power to perform it in dying mankind .He makes our hearts soft by the water of His word .

Christ our husband the author of the law (scripture) by his written law judges.. with some perish and without. . some. The "letter" the standard

Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law (written) shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law (written) shall be judged by the law;

The law the temporal as it is written mixed with the gospel the unseen eternal . Law of faith .

Romans 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

 

[Josheb]

The Destiny Of The Unreached
[Any hope for them?]​

If you would give me your attention, consider with me the billions and billions of people who have lived and died who were never exposed to either audible or written messages from Heaven. Is there no hope for any of them? Let’s take this fascinating journey and parley about what Heaven says about it—if anything. —Buff.​

Hope For The Unexposed​

A few decades ago, someone tried to estimate the number of people who have lived and died upon planet Earth since the genesis of the human family. He supposed that if the earth were one great graveyard, the graves would be twenty deep—all over the mountains, the deserts, the rivers, and the oceans.

If his supposition is anywhere correct, just think of the billions and billions of people who have walked and died upon planet Earth, yet only a small percentage of them, perhaps less than 10 percent, have been exposed to what we call “special revelation” in the form of audible or written messages of a celestial kind. Is God unmindful of these billions of people? Has He not been aware of their plight and lack of opportunities? Has He not “determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live”? And has He not done this “so that men would seek Him and perhaps reach out for Him and find Him”? After all, “He is not far from each one of us” [Acts 17:24-27].

The conclusion cannot be criticized. Every mentally competent person living upon the face of the earth is able to “reach out for God and find Him,” regardless of their whereabouts, should they decide to seek His face. This has been a universal truth since the very dawn of creation. Consequently, there is no excuse for those who build and worship false gods and idols—whether symbols of persons, animals, or things. In addressing the fate of certain pagans, the apostle Paul accused them of “worshipping and serving created things rather than the Creator,” and said they are “without excuse” [Rom. 1:18-25].
​

The Receptive Heart​

So what about the man whose heart is receptive to any available light, but his only “revelation” is creation? Paul said the pagans could have “glorified Him” and given “thanks to Him” [Rom. 1:21]. So here is a man who glorifies God through creation—the only revelation he has. Will God’s mercy make amends for his lack of opportunities? If the deceased infant is safe in the arms of God because of a lack of capabilities, and he is, why is this man not safe in the arms of God, even though his only light is the revelation of creation? On the one hand, we have a lack of capabilities; on the other hand, we see a lack of opportunities. The principle that applies to one applies to the other

But why take the Good News about Jesus to him, if he is already safe in the arms of God? I answer by asking, Why cultivate a field of corn if it can be harvested without cultivation? To make it a better field of corn! We take the saving message to the honest unregenerate because we are thus commissioned, and because the “elected” ones need to hear and be spiritually cultivated—thereby producing a better harvest.

It is God’s intention, through the Good News, to not only save the unregenerate from their fallen nature, but that those who are righteous like Cornelius might be conformed to the image of His Son [2 Cor. 3:18]. This is why we take the saving message to the unregenerate. Those who are not seeking light will not accept it. For them, the sun has already set. But those who are seeking more light will grasp it.
​

The Mentally Competent​

Every mentally competent person who has ever lived has been able to find God, for “he has set eternity in the hearts of men” [Eccles. 3:11]. All men, everywhere and in every age, have been divinely infused with an awareness of an intelligent Creator and of life after physical death. On that principle, I must conclude there have been many “unexposed” persons who were receptive to the “revelation of creation.” And those who sought God’s face, as limited as it may have been, and who “by persistence in doing good sought glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life” [Rom. 2:7].

Jesus touched upon this kind of situation when He taught there is no guilt when one is unavoidably blind of certain truths. The self-righteous Pharisees were chiding Him in their usual way. Following the healing of a blind man, He said He had come into the world that those who do not see may see, and that others who see may become blind. The Pharisees asked Him, “Are we blind, too” [of certain truths]? Jesus answered, “If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains” [John 9:35-41].

We cannot pass this premise by without giving it our solemn attention. If I understand Jesus’ intend correctly, He seems to be saying. There is no condemning guilt when one is unavoidably blind of certain truths and facts. When a man has no occasion to hear of and submit to divine injunctions, and his heart is sincere, there is no convicting guilt accredited to his account. In a related passage, Jesus announces, “If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin. Now, however, they have no excuse for their sin” [John 15:22]
​

<><><>
​

Question In Closing— May a person reach heaven without believing in and knowing the Person of Jesus? It is my perception that among those who will be in heaven without believing in and knowing the Person of Jesus will be infants and small children, the severely retarded, and the mentally incompetent. I have also added the “honest unexposed” or uninformed—those receptive to celestial truth [see John 15:22 and Rom. 1:18-25 again].​

I see that you cite Romans 1:18-25 as a text supporting the premise the "'honest unexposed' or uninformed" may "reach heaven." I'm wondering what you do with verse 20.

Romans 1:20 NAS
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

Romans 1:20 KJV
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

Romans 1:20 ESV
For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

According to that verse, a verse specifically appealed to in the op everyone can see and perceived the power and divine nature of God, and they can see and understand to the point that they have no excuse for not believing and honoring God. There are many verses stating or implying the same (see Job 12:7 or Ps. 19:1).

How is that reconciled that with this op?


Furthermore, Romans 2:12 states those who sin apart from the law still perish, they do so apart from the law (or Law). Paul wrote that in spite of also saying sin is not accounted for where there is no law. Paul also described how even Gentiles have the law of God written within and that can be observed when their consciences are at work. Passages like these would include everyone, no matter their age of mental faculties. In addition, scripture states all have sinned and the wages of sin is death, John 3 states everyone who doesn't believe in the name of God's son already stand condemned, and John 14 plainly states no one can come the Father but by Jesus. Acts 17:30 reports God overlooked the ignorance of people in the past (see also Acts 14:16-17) and has set a day for judgment anyway. In speaking to the obstinance and stubbornness of Israel, Ezekiel said they knew a prophet had walked among them, "whether they listen or not." In point of fact, ignorance is one of the problems to be solved (Eph. 4:18). Ignorance is sin. If that is true then appeals to ignorance are hugely self-contradictory: those who sin are not sinners and, in their sin, they get a pass from sin. Colossians 1:23 reports the gospel has been preached throughout all creation.


How is al of that reconciled with the op?

 

[Josheb]

The Receptive Heart​

So what about the man whose heart is receptive to any available light, but his only “revelation” is creation? Paul said the pagans could have “glorified Him” and given “thanks to Him” [Rom. 1:21]. So here is a man who glorifies God through creation—the only revelation he has. Will God’s mercy make amends for his lack of opportunities? If the deceased infant is safe in the arms of God because of a lack of capabilities, and he is, why is this man not safe in the arms of God, even though his only light is the revelation of creation? On the one hand, we have a lack of capabilities; on the other hand, we see a lack of opportunities. The principle that applies to one applies to the other

But why take the Good News about Jesus to him, if he is already safe in the arms of God? I answer by asking, Why cultivate a field of corn if it can be harvested without cultivation? To make it a better field of corn! We take the saving message to the honest unregenerate because we are thus commissioned, and because the “elected” ones need to hear and be spiritually cultivated—thereby producing a better harvest.

It is God’s intention, through the Good News, to not only save the unregenerate from their fallen nature, but that those who are righteous like Cornelius might be conformed to the image of His Son [2 Cor. 3:18]. This is why we take the saving message to the unregenerate.​

Who makes the sinful sinner's heart receptive?

Those who are not seeking light will not accept it. For them, the sun has already set. But those who are seeking more light will grasp it.​

According to scripture,

Psalm 53:1-3
The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God," They are corrupt, and have committed abominable injustice; There is no one who does good. God has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men to see if there is anyone who understands, who seeks after God. Every one of them has turned aside; together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one.

Romans 3:9-18 ESV
What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” “Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive.” “The venom of asps is under their lips.” “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.” “Their feet are swift to shed blood; in their paths are ruin and misery, and the way of peace they have not known.” “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”


The entire op is predicated on "the unreached." It would appear the unreached do not seek more light, and according to the op, "Those who are not seeking light will not accept it." That makes sense. After all, how can someone reach a destination they're not seeking? If none are seeking, as the scripture repeatedly teach, then none reach the light.


One little detail worth noting: Both the soil in which the corn is planted, and the corn kernel are made by God. The workings of both have become corrupted by sin (thorns and thistles now grow where none had previously grown). Even the land is defiled (Lev. 18:25).

 

[David1701]

To me the question isn't whether or not John the Baptist had saving faith while still in the womb, but whether @David1701 has a valid hermeneutic. It's one thing to think, believe, assume, make the logical leap, that one wouldn't jump for joy if not by faith. It is quite another to teach it as God's own truth.

Which category of person leaps for joy at the presence of the Lord - believers or unbelievers?

John the Immerser was filled with the Holy Spirit, from his mother's womb. Did you not know that?

Luke 1:13-15 (WEB)
13 But the angel said to him, “Don’t be afraid, Zacharias, because your request has been heard, and your wife, Elizabeth, will bear you a son, and you shall call his name John.
14 You will have joy and gladness; and many will rejoice at his birth.
15 For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and he will drink no wine nor strong drink. He will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother’s womb.

 

[David1701]

Re: That would be my guess. Do you have a scripture to back up the "faith in the Messiah" is necessary for salvation?

You did not satisfy my request. I agreed that are O.T. scriptures speaking of the come Messiah. I asked you to provide a scripture to substantiate you conjecture that "before Jesus one was saved by faith in the coming Messiah". I ask again, give a scripture showing the result of believing in the coming Messiah is part of salvific faith for those that died before Jesus.



Luke 1:41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.
I think you are reading into scripture what is not there. Empirical evidence shows there has never been a fetus that is cogent. Faith requires knowledge. Faith cometh by hearing. Fetus' cannot hear, they are not cogent. Even Christ himself had to grow in knowledge and wisdom (Luke 2:52).

I challenge you to find any theologian on the internet that supports your contention that John the Baptist had saving faith while in his mommies womb. (not that that is proof, but this idea is way out there IMO).

The whole Bible is about the Messiah. If someone did not believe in the Messiah to come, then he was an unbeliever.

Genesis 3:15 (KJV) And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

John 8:56-58 (KJV)
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Psalm 2 (KJV)
1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

Regarding John, in the womb...

Luke 1:13-15 (WEB)
13 But the angel said to him, “Don’t be afraid, Zacharias, because your request has been heard, and your wife, Elizabeth, will bear you a son, and you shall call his name John.
14 You will have joy and gladness; and many will rejoice at his birth.
15 For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and he will drink no wine nor strong drink. He will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother’s womb.

 

[Mr GLee]

Luke 1:13-15 (WEB)
13 But the angel said to him, “Don’t be afraid, Zacharias, because your request has been heard, and your wife, Elizabeth, will bear you a son, and you shall call his name John.
14 You will have joy and gladness; and many will rejoice at his birth.
15 For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and he will drink no wine nor strong drink. He will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother’s womb.

Yes names written down in two books from the foundation. The six days Christ did work we rest finished work that kind of love ,.

 

[fastfredy0]

Who’s to say John wasn’t regenerated?
Or just jumped for joy from being touched by the Spirit.

That's my point that one cannot assume things that are not explicitly stated in scripture. One can use empirical evidence to draw reasonable conclusions. If I drop a ball a billion times on the surface of the earth it will go down each time. I can assume the ball will go down when I drop it the billionth and one time. Similarly, we know that a fetus is not cogent and therefore cannot have faith. Now to assume God made John a being in the womb that had understanding of theological matters, communication skills, in depth thought patterns, reasoning is beyond reason; rather, a "bridge too far". Now God could do it, but to assume He did so is a HUGE leap.
I can make the same assumptive leap: Perhaps John the Baptist as a fetus was told by God that his great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great grand son was going to win the lottery and he leaped his Elizabeth's womb for joy!!! I can make that claim and who to say I am wrong. But this is beyond reason just like it is beyond reason to say John as a fetus had faith.
I doubt Jesus as a fetus had faith too. Faith requires knowledge and the bible says Jesus grew in wisdom and wisdom requires knowledge so there is a duration of time that enables things like faith to develop and be possible.

 

[Josheb]

The Mentally Competent​

Every mentally competent person who has ever lived has been able to find God, for “he has set eternity in the hearts of men” [Eccles. 3:11]. All men, everywhere and in every age, have been divinely infused with an awareness of an intelligent Creator and of life after physical death. On that principle, I must conclude there have been many “unexposed” persons who were receptive to the “revelation of creation.” And those who sought God’s face, as limited as it may have been, and who “by persistence in doing good sought glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life” [Rom. 2:7].​

Do you realize a salvation-by-seeking position is being asserted? That's a works-based salvation.

Who is the group of people to which the word "those" refers in Romans 2:7?


Romans 2:1-16
Therefore, you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things. But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who will render to each person according to his deeds: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God. For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Is verse 7 about "those" [mentally competent who've never heard the gospel and in their own faculties] persevere in doing good....? Or is verse 7 about "those" [of you to whom I am now writing, the saints who are obedient in faith?

Paul is writing to Christians about judging others. He is NOT writing about divine judgment deciding whether or not a person gets into heaven. The "you" and the "your" of verse 5 are the saints to whom Paul is writing.

Because of your stubbornness [you saints in Rome], and unrepentant heart you [the saints in Rome] are storing up wrath for yourself [you saints in Rome] and revelation of God's righteous judgment, who will render to each person [each person among you saints in Rome] according to his deeds. Even if the unreached are judged according to the deeds of the unreached, there is no salvation by works. Salvation by works is not a thing.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15
For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

The person building on the foundation of Christ may well suffer egregiously in God's testing. He may lose everything...... except his salvation. When the person NOT building on the foundation of Christ is judged according to his works the disqualifying work is his failure to believe in God's Son. Not only has that person not believed, but he hasn't lived according to his own conscience. His own conscience will convict Him. He will be shown what he already knows: All creation bears witness to the power of God (and therefore His existence), and it does so in such a manner that he is without excuse.

This op grossly misuses Romans 2:7. Everything built on that argument must be discarded on the basis of very poor exegesis.

Jesus touched upon this kind of situation when He taught there is no guilt when one is unavoidably blind of certain truths.

That interpretation contradicts the repeated reports of scripture that 1) everyone can understand simply by observing creation, and 2) ignorance is no excuse.

The self-righteous Pharisees were chiding Him in their usual way.

Poor example.

For one, the Pharisees are not unreached. Two, they are not mentally capable (see Romans 8:6-7). Neither are they wholly not seeking and not receptive; their receptivity is selfish and prejudiced, but they cannot be said to be wholly unreceptive. Their sect had looked forward to the Messiah for centuries and at least three among their ilk (Nicodemus, Joseph, and Saul) were receptive (even if one of them had to be struck blind and knocked off his donkey ).

Following the healing of a blind man, He said He had come into the world that those who do not see may see, and that others who see may become blind.

How then this op claim there are those who seek light? Blind people, people who've spent their entire life in darkness with no knowledge of light supposedly seek light?

The Pharisees asked Him, “Are we blind, too” [of certain truths]? Jesus answered, “If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains” [John 9:35-41].

And yet the Pharisees were guilty. Matthew 23 proves this forcefully and unequivocally.

We cannot pass this premise by without giving it our solemn attention.​

The premise is certainly worth discussing but the exegesis is sloppy at best but potentially heretical at worst.

If I understand Jesus’ intend correctly...​

It appears you do not. Individual verses have been used selectively, while both their inherent context and the whole of scripture neglected. That has led to a position that does not withstand critical examination when the whole of scripture is consulted.

 

[Josheb]

Question In Closing— May a person reach heaven without believing in and knowing the Person of Jesus?​

Not if John 14:6 is correct.

John 14:1-7
"Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to myself, that where I am, there you may be also. And you know the way where I am going." Thomas *said to Him, "Lord, we do not know where you are going, how do we know the way?" Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through me. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him and have seen Him.

Acts 4:5-14
On the next day, their rulers and elders and scribes were gathered together in Jerusalem; and Annas the high priest was there, and Caiaphas and John and Alexander, and all who were of high-priestly descent. When they had placed them in the center, they began to inquire, "By what power, or in what name, have you done this?" Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, "Rulers and elders of the people, if we are on trial today for a benefit done to a sick man, as to how this man has been made well, let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead—by this name this man stands here before you in good health. He is the stone which was rejected by you, the builders, but which became the chief cornerstone. And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved." Now as they observed the confidence of Peter and John and understood that they were uneducated and untrained men, they were amazed and began to recognize them as having been with Jesus. And seeing the man who had been healed standing with them, they had nothing to say in reply.

It is my perception that among those who will be in heaven without believing in and knowing the Person of Jesus will be infants and small children, the severely retarded, and the mentally incompetent. I have also added the “honest unexposed” or uninformed—those receptive to celestial truth [see John 15:22 and Rom. 1:18-25 again].​

According to the many scriptures I have posted, ones the op neglects in its case. that perception is incorrect.


There may be children in heaven. As far as the severely retarded and mentally incompetent go, 1) there'd be no mentally retarded or mentally incompetent people if Genesis 3:6-7 hadn't happened, and 2) I spent my entire professional life in the field of developmental disabilities (they don't call it "retarded" anymore) and mental health. I lived with several men who were mildly to moderately retarded for nearly a decade as part of a ministry to the developmentally disabled in which I worked for 25 years. I will concede the "severe" and "profound" (those are the clinical terms) population may be different but no one knows what they do or don't know. As far as those with an IQ in the 40-70 range, they can and do hear and understand the gospel and many reject it and many accept it. The difference between the two is just as notable as that same difference among those with IQs above 100 (the mean, median, and mode). Sometimes genius (IQ > 145) is a handicap. Bertrand Russel assured everyone just over a century ago that all we needed to do is rid society of religion and we'd all be free of fear. They've worked hard at that very task since then and the world is more anxious, more fearful, and more neurotic than ever. That is what happens when God is removed. The self is all folks have to turn to.

That does not save.

 

[David1701]

That's my point that one cannot assume things that are not explicitly stated in scripture. One can use empirical evidence to draw reasonable conclusions. If I drop a ball a billion times on the surface of the earth it will go down each time. I can assume the ball will go down when I drop it the billionth and one time. Similarly, we know that a fetus is not cogent and therefore cannot have faith. Now to assume God made John a being in the womb that had understanding of theological matters, communication skills, in depth thought patterns, reasoning is beyond reason; rather, a "bridge too far". Now God could do it, but to assume He did so is a HUGE leap.
I can make the same assumptive leap: Perhaps John the Baptist as a fetus was told by God that his great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great grand son was going to win the lottery and he leaped his Elizabeth's womb for joy!!! I can make that claim and who to say I am wrong. But this is beyond reason just like it is beyond reason to say John as a fetus had faith.
I doubt Jesus as a fetus had faith too. Faith requires knowledge and the bible says Jesus grew in wisdom and wisdom requires knowledge so there is a duration of time that enables things like faith to develop and be possible.

To assume that understanding of theological matters, communication skills, in-depth thought patterns and reasoning are pre-requisites for God to give someone faith, is a leap too far (far too far, in fact, since it excludes from the way of salvation a huge number of people, including young children and some kinds of disabled people).

It is through the faith that God gives that we know God and Jesus Christ whom he has sent (that is eternal life). Knowing about him can help to strengthen faith, of course, but that is another matter.

I'm somewhat concerned by your objections, because they come across as viewing salvation from an intellectual standpoint (don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with intellect, but it is not required for salvation), rather than the trusting, loving faith of a young child. Remember what Jesus said about young children - he said to allow them to come to him, because of such is the kingdom of God. Unless we become like little children, in loving, childlike faith (not requiring the pre-requisites you mentioned!), then we cannot enter the kingdom of God.

 

[fastfredy0]

To assume that understanding of theological matters, communication skills, in-depth thought patterns and reasoning are pre-requisites for God to give someone faith, is a leap too far (far too far, in fact, since it excludes from the way of salvation a huge number of people, including young children and some kinds of disabled people).

A brick can't be saved by faith and a fetus is as they say, "dumb as a brick". To think a fetus knows of Christ and has knowledge sufficient for salvation is ludicrous IMO as the empirical evidence negates such a claim.

I'm somewhat concerned by your objections, because they come across as viewing salvation from an intellectual standpoint

You don't need an IQ over 100 to be saved. An child can be saved. But you need some intellect where intellect is defined as: the ability to learn and reason; the capacity for knowledge and understanding. A fetus CANNOT reason. It has no knowledge of Christ and knowledge of Christ is an essential part of saving faith. Knowledge requires learning via input. We have 5 senses as vehicles to learn. All the input sources are unless to a fetus.
Premise1: Saving Faith requires knowledge of Christ
Premise2: A fetus has no knowledge of Christ
Conclusion: A fetus does not have saving faith

don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with intellect, but it is not required for salvation

"Intellect" as I defined above from a dictionary. NO ONE IS SAVED THAT CANNOT REASON where reason is defined as: declaration made to explain or justify action, decision, or conviction.
A fetus has no intellect. It cannot reason and therefore cannot have saving faith.

Remember what Jesus said about young children

We are not talking about children. The subject is the fetus of John and it's ability to have saving faith while being a fetus. Since a fetus does not have knowledge of Christ it cannot have saving faith.

You can have the last word on the subject if you wish. I've stated my stance sufficiently.

 

[Carbon]

That's my point that one cannot assume things that are not explicitly stated in scripture. One can use empirical evidence to draw reasonable conclusions. If I drop a ball a billion times on the surface of the earth it will go down each time. I can assume the ball will go down when I drop it the billionth and one time. Similarly, we know that a fetus is not cogent and therefore cannot have faith. Now to assume God made John a being in the womb that had understanding of theological matters, communication skills, in depth thought patterns, reasoning is beyond reason; rather, a "bridge too far". Now God could do it, but to assume He did so is a HUGE leap.
I can make the same assumptive leap: Perhaps John the Baptist as a fetus was told by God that his great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great grand son was going to win the lottery and he leaped his Elizabeth's womb for joy!!! I can make that claim and who to say I am wrong. But this is beyond reason just like it is beyond reason to say John as a fetus had faith.

I hear you. I agree.

I doubt Jesus as a fetus had faith too. Faith requires knowledge and the bible says Jesus grew in wisdom and wisdom requires knowledge so there is a duration of time that enables things like faith to develop and be possible.

But I'm afraid I have to disagree here. I mainly disagree with that, It seems you are quite sure Jesus as an infant had no faith. I don't believe we could know that. God in comparison to our pea brains, and we can come up with that?